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rigeld2 wrote:
HIWPI:
ICs contribute their charges. Units contribute their charges. Multiple Psykers in a unit contribute their charges.

ICs that are members of a unit cannot case the same spell as the unit they're a member of.
Multiple Psykers that are members of a unit (not BoP/S) cannot cast the same spell

this does seem to be the intention. Getting rid of the massed psy death units and trying to get players to distribute thier psy characters throughout the army and not just massing them in one unit.

I agree with this hwypi as it is fair and balanced given the changes to how some powers work.

1. pg.22 For the purposes of all the rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker Unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg.170), Psychic Pilot (pg170) or brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcers (pg 159) special rules.

2. pg 159 Brotherhood - A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker Unit if no Mastery Level is shown, then that unit has a Mastery level of 1

3. pg 170 Psyker (psyker pilot) - A model with this special rule is a Psyker...

So as I read it, the only psyker unit is a unit containing a model with the rule brotherhood of psykers. Meaning we can have a 'unit with psykers' and a 'psyker unit' which is very important difference when determining powers and generating dice.

psyker seems to be like many of special rules and does not confer while brotherhood does confer.

So an example of when this sucks is a GK Lib joins a unit he becomes part of the brotherhood so what mastery level is he? Another one then means warlocks all being psyker and not brotherhood each individually generate dice and such.

Thats what I think and HIWPI

katana100 wrote:

1. pg.22 For the purposes of all the rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker Unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg.170), Psychic Pilot (pg170) or brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcers (pg 159) special rules.

2. pg 159 Brotherhood - A unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a Psyker Unit if no Mastery Level is shown, then that unit has a Mastery level of 1

3. pg 170 Psyker (psyker pilot) - A model with this special rule is a Psyker...

So as I read it, the only psyker unit is a unit containing a model with the rule brotherhood of psykers. Meaning we can have a 'unit with psykers' and a 'psyker unit' which is very important difference when determining powers and generating dice.

psyker seems to be like many of special rules and does not confer while brotherhood does confer.

So an example of when this sucks is a GK Lib joins a unit he becomes part of the brotherhood so what mastery level is he? Another one then means warlocks all being psyker and not brotherhood each individually generate dice and such.

Thats what I think and HIWPI

Again, the rules are just badly written, and the terms psychic unit and psyker are being used interchangeably. Otherwise as I have explained above, if you used a psychic power and rolled doubles, you would suffer TWO perils of the warp, because it says at one point that the psyker takes a perils if doubles are rolled, and it says elsewhere that the psyker unit takes a perils if doubles are rolled.

The terms are being utilized interchangeably. The paragraph at the beginning has to be saying that you substitute the appropriate term for the unit or model you are looking at, for the term psyker or psyker unit. Otherwise, as I've stated,, you'd take two perils.

katana100 wrote:
So as I read it, the only psyker unit is a unit containing a model with the rule brotherhood of psykers

The rule you just quoted quite specifically says that a psyker unit is any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood rules, so I'm not sure how you're reading that Psyker units are only Brotherhood units.

 insaniak wrote:

katana100 wrote:
So as I read it, the only psyker unit is a unit containing a model with the rule brotherhood of psykers

The rule you just quoted quite specifically says that a psyker unit is any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood rules, so I'm not sure how you're reading that Psyker units are only Brotherhood units.

There are no units with the Psyker rule except the ones that consist of a single model.

Mymearan wrote:
There are no units with the Psyker rule except the ones that consist of a single model.

A unit of Warlocks has the Psyker rule.

A unit of Warlocks with a Farseer in it has the Psyker rule.

A unit of Guardians with a Farseer in it may or may not have the Psyker rule, depending on interpretation.

So, I'm on the side of logic and reason, so I want to pose a question that goes with the majority assumption of the pysker IC joining units...

Let's say I have Draigo with his Paladin buddies. Not a stretch of the imagination in the least.

Draigo has the invisibility power. I know I want this power off and I don't give a flying flip about how it goes down. I throw 12 dice at the power, getting 6 successes (math) and I perils (also math). Now, since Draigo is a part of that unit for all rules purposes, and the unit is a Brotherhood of Traveling PantsPsykers, can I assign the perils to random Paladin #9 versus that of Driago? And if so, I then do my normal stuff of d6, check results,... BUT, what if it requires leadership test? Do I then use Ld10 of Draigo? And assuming I take I wound, I can then proceed to use my Feel No Pain I have from the Apothecary.

TL;DR: Can I 12 dice a power Draigo uses and then throw the Perils on some random schlub hoping to either walk off the results or at least use FNP to minimize the incoming damage?

The answer to that is going to depend on whether you consider most of the unit having the Brotherhood rule to be the same as 'the unit' having the Brotherhood rule.

If so, then yes, you could farm off the perils.

If no, then you couldn't... but in return, a power cast by one of the Paladins that results in a perils would also have to ignore the Brotherhood rule. Essentially, joining an IC to the unit would pretty much just negate the Brotherhood rule entirely.


For how I woudl play it - as others have mentioned. I suspect that the intention was to treat each distinct Psyker or Brotherhood group as a separate 'psyker unit'. So no, in your example Draigo would be stuck with his own Perils.

 insaniak wrote:

For how I woudl play it - as others have mentioned. I suspect that the intention was to treat each distinct Psyker or Brotherhood group as a separate 'psyker unit'. So no, in your example Draigo would be stuck with his own Perils.

That's how I intend to play it, too. I'm just being devil's advocate.

But see.. that's the thing.


If you want to go 100% RAW if you're treating it as you're reading it, you'd do both.

First, :

3. Take Psychic Test. The Psyker must now expend Warp Charge points and attempt to harness them by taking a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails and nothing further happens. If two or more 6s are rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately.

Gives a perils to the psyker.

Then :

If, when making a Psychic test, two or more dice rolls (before applying modifiers) were rolls of a 6, the unit attempting to manifest the psychic power suffers Perils of the Warp (see below), whether or not the manifestation attempt failed.

So the unit would take a perils, and so would the psyker. Unless these terms are being used interchangeably. In which case when they say select a psyker unit, they could easily mean select a psyker. (in fact, they say that too elsewhere).


You're trying to build a castle out of molasses unless you interpret

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/ Sorcerers special rules.
"

to mean that when you see one of these terms, substitute the term appropriate for what you have selected (aka a farseer would be a psyker, something with brotherhood of psykers is a psychic unit [which is actually stated elsewhere, but no where other than here could it possibly be saying a farseer is a psychic unit)

If you interpret this *one rule* this way, then the rest of them make sense. If you don't, then it's a hodge podge of mess like this example.

emmagine wrote:
But see.. that's the thing.


If you want to go 100% RAW if you're treating it as you're reading it, you'd do both..

If you want to go 100% RAW, there is no way to cast the power in the first place, since the rules don't currently address how psychic powers work in units of mixed psykers.

Unless you interpret that paragraph as I indicated. which fixes that problem as well.

emmagine wrote:
Unless you interpret that paragraph as I indicated. which fixes that problem as well.

Your interpretation involves subsituting different terms in as you deem appropriate... so is hardly RAW.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/ Sorcerers special rules.

I'm saying that's what this sentence means.

According to RAW:

BRB pg 170 Psyker: A model with this special rule is a Psyker.

BRB pg 22 "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, psychic pilot, or BoP/S special rules."

So, since Psyker and Psychic unit are apparently interchangable, a warlock unit of 10, is both 10 psyker units and 1 psyker unit. Thus RAW has no meaning in this case, because in two rules that reference each other create two contradicting facts.



THere is no solution to this RAW, so the only way to resolve anything is to try to figure out RAI, and or agree with your opponent on HIWPI.

For my money, the only logical conclusion is that 'psyker unit' means something completely independent of the typical 40K term 'unit'. Since each model with the Psyker SR is a Psyker and Psyker = psyker unit RAW. So regardless of what characters join what, or how many psykers are in a squad... each instance of one of those special rules is an independant psyker unit.

The only time we make a psyker unit is when a model has the brotherhood rule otherwise we have units with psykers in. Emmachine I believe is correct about the interpretation of that line in the psychic phase as well using it (the closet to correct intrpretation we have) means. Unit with warlocks is is a unit with a bunch of psykers that do.psychic thingies independently where as a GK Strike Squad is a psyker unit that follow the psyker unit rules layed out in brotherhood (so select one to.cast the unit all counts as one psyker blahblahblah)

katana100 wrote:
The only time we make a psyker unit is when a model has the brotherhood rule otherwise we have units with psykers in.

Why? An IC is also a unit, so a single IC Psyker is also a Psyker Unit.

A unit of Warlocks is a unit comprised solely of models with the Psyker rule, so by any reasonable interpretation is a unit with the Psyker rule, and is thus a Psyker Unit.

 insaniak wrote:

katana100 wrote:
The only time we make a psyker unit is when a model has the brotherhood rule otherwise we have units with psykers in.

Why? An IC is also a unit, so a single IC Psyker is also a Psyker Unit.

A unit of Warlocks is a unit comprised solely of models with the Psyker rule, so by any reasonable interpretation is a unit with the Psyker rule, and is thus a Psyker Unit.

And if an Autarch joins it?

emmagine wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
This thread seems to be entirely about the vagueness between Psyker and Psyker unit. The limited on not casting the same power has nothing to do with that, at least on the digital rulebook, it says no "unit" can attempt to cast the same power twice.

This is a fantastic change and very clear RAW that stops abusive psychic death stars that most people hated in 6th ed. I

If you have 2 farseers in a unit both of which have fortune you get one chance to get it off, that's your gamble for attempting to make a seer star you won't get any tears from me about how your totally abusive deathstar can't auto-win anymore. They would clearly add there full combine mastery level to the warp charge pool, there is not verbiage that says otherwise. The no unit casting the same power twice on the other hand is extremely clear. Perils is also pretty clear that the psyker who's spell you chose is the psyker that suffers the perils, and brotherhood has their own way of working that out.

The summoning of a daemon price on the other hand seems RAW that if the pink horrors cast the spell the herald goes to.... your getting a greater daemon here and you can easily move the herald out in the movement phase before you cast the spell, it's not really that big of a deal.

all of this has been discussed ad nauseum. please read the rest of the thread.

I did, prior to posting, you should do the same and then read what I posted and hopefully eventually realize that you missed the point.

Query?

If an IC with the Psyker special rule joins a unit that does not have the Psyker rule, is that unit now a Psyker unit because of the IC's inclusion?

 Baragash wrote:
And if an Autarch joins it?

Then the game breaks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rakear wrote:
Query?

If an IC with the Psyker special rule joins a unit that does not have the Psyker rule, is that unit now a Psyker unit because of the IC's inclusion?

Right now, nobody knows.

The most likely option is that the IC is considered a psyker unit of one model even when joined to another unit, and the rest of the unit is ignored for the purposes of the psychic phase... but that's just a guess as the rules simply don't cover the situation.

 insaniak wrote:

katana100 wrote:
The only time we make a psyker unit is when a model has the brotherhood rule otherwise we have units with psykers in.

Why? An IC is also a unit, so a single IC Psyker is also a Psyker Unit.

A unit of Warlocks is a unit comprised solely of models with the Psyker rule, so by any reasonable interpretation is a unit with the Psyker rule, and is thus a Psyker Unit.

He is a unit with a psker in... Same with warlocks its a unit with psykers in so if say an autarch joins them its doesnt matter its still a unit with a psyker in.

Not brotherhood if a non psyker joins the unit the rule confers to him as stated in the rules of brotherhood and he is theb subject to being ina psyker unit

Any unit with the psyker rule is a psyker unit. So an IC psyker is a psyker unit of one model.

Okay then if it's all considered one big unit, then what's it's ML level?

A ML3 joins a ML1 squad does he become a ML1? Cause by the logic presented here he does.

One again, nobody knows.

For about the fifteenth time, the rules don't cover how to resolve the psychic phase when you have a unit made up of mixed psykers, or some psykers and some other models.

 insaniak wrote:
One again, nobody knows.

For about the fifteenth time, the rules don't cover how to resolve the psychic phase when you have a unit made up of mixed psykers, or some psykers and some other models.

Yes it does. It specifically breaks down how to go about doing this, how is this not apparent?

I'll break it down for you.

Under the Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence.

1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power: Select one of your Psyker Units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest. (Hint: the answer you are all looking for is in this sentence)

A Psyker by himself, is a unit.

For example, in my own codex for the DA, my Librarians unit composition is 1 Librarian and its unit type is IC.

If I joined him up with a squad of tactical, he does not lose his base unit type nor his own unit composition. The unit he joins though does not then become a Psyker unit.

Before I continue, Remember: Unit applies to the group of models as a whole in a unit (most players call them squads) and INDIVIDUAL units that make up their own unit. They never lose this unit type, ever, unless you can quote me a direct rule stating that they lose their unit status or their IC status for the remainder of the game then this point cannot be disputed. An IC can freely come and go from another unit, yet it still remains its own unit in all these things.

Now to continue.

Say I had two Librarians. One I decided would be fun to teach pure Pyromancy and a second I wanted pure Telepathy. Though both are in the same group, only one of them can cast a specific spell, for instance Psychic Shriek. The Telepath knows this, but the Pyromancer does not therefore he cannot cast said spell.

If both Librarian had the spell, I would choose one at a time and resolve as normal.

3. Take Psychic Test: The Psyker must now expend Warp Charge points and attempt to harness them by taking a Psychic test. If two or more 6s are rolled, the Psyker (notice, singular, not plural and not referring to a unit other than the Psyker who attempted to cast the spell) suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately.

Now to clarify again. Scroll back and reread point 1. You select ONE Psyker at a time and attempt to cast a power, you roll doubles, that ONE Psyker takes a Perils of the Warp roll. You would not get to pass this on to another Psyker within the unit or to another Psyker in your army, plain and simply because they are not the ones attempting to cast a spell. Again, because each Psyker is a unit in its own right, even if he is with someone else, nobody can take that bullet for him.

So to answer the op question, if you have a group of multiple Psykers, you would roll for them each on their own, as their own unit and if any Perils are suffered, the Psyker attempting to manifest said power will take the punishment.

I think the problem many of you are having is that you're looking at RAW and simply because you are not seeing a statement of something you assume that it cannot be.

Simply by reading and comprehending the words and the structure of the sentences, paragraphs, the stuff you learn in basic English that become second nature to an English major, someone who went to college to study how things are written, someone who understands how a simple word placement can drastically change a meaning, the answer is very obvious.

A Psyker unit, using DA as an example again, a Librarian counts as a single UNIT, on his own, specifically he is considered an Independent Unit for the entire game and until GW changes this classification. If he joins a unit, he DOES NOT lose this unit type. He still remains an Independent Unit, he simply joins up with others and tags along with them. He does not change their unit type unless he confers something to them that specifically states that he does so, using mine as an example, this would never happen.

If multiple Psykers are in the same unit, they are all INDEPENDENT UNITS, even though they are together and thus would roll as individuals and resolve Perils as individuals.

Tbh, as I'm writing this I realize the RAW are very specific and like the Psychic Shriek question in another thread have absolutely no room for interpretation.

Zodiark, I realise you're new to the game, but I can't see how your explanation, setting everything else that may or may not be incorrect with it, applies to IC Psykers joining units comprised entirely of Psykers (such as Grey Knights or Pink Horrors?)

 azreal13 wrote:
Zodiark, I realise you're new to the game, but I can't see how your explanation, setting everything else that may or may not be incorrect with it, applies to IC Psykers joining units comprised entirely of Psykers (such as Grey Knights or Pink Horrors?)

First thing, explain what is incorrect about my statement.

No, I said setting aside that, because I'm not prepared to invest the time, but you've made no account for Brotherhood of Sorcerors/Psykers that I can see, suggesting you've probably missed the main thrust of the debate.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I am planning to run an ork list involving Weirdboyz and Daemonology since i want to see how badly i'll nuke my brains before the new dex hits lol.

Couple of things i coulda sworn i saw, but cant seem to find might jack up my strat though. If anyone could help me find it i'd be grateful.
1) Psyker phase says a unit may not manifest the same spell twice. What about ICs in that unit? Or in my case, two ICs with psyker powers in the same unit? Contemplating bringing a 2nd weirdboy for backup spellcasting case my first one fails.

EDIT: Ignore this one, found it under Witchfire. Changed title to reference one question.
2) If i use any spells in the psyker phase, can i still run in the shooting phase? cant seem to find anything saying anything i do affects my actions in the shooting phase. Could have sworn i saw a paragraph saying i can still shoot even at a different target than any spells were thrown at before, but now i cant seem to find it

Any help would be appreciative.

I'm helping him

 azreal13 wrote:
No, I said setting aside that, because I'm not prepared to invest the time, but you've made no account for Brotherhood of Sorcerors/Psykers that I can see, suggesting you've probably missed the main thrust of the debate.

I am showing all of you who are pointlessly arguing about something that is very specific and is in no way hard to understand.

I made no account of it because the rules for these are indeed quite clear and IIRC I was responding to a specific person and a specific quote that he said which brought about my own response