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2014/08/27 18:26:16
Subject: Re:The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
For someone who would like to spend points on a Vindicator or a Hammerhead, it's bad enough that MCs dominate. Why should so many characters be immune to the effect of the supposedly awesome main gun?
Heck, most of the EW characters would benefit from a slightly better Invuln Save, a point cost reduction, and removal of EW, since in most cases, they'd be more bang for the buck, more survivable in the meta, and- dare I say it- more realistic.
I have my own issues with some of the rules, and I've no issue "fixing" a few, but I'm not sure modifying the rules to turn a demolisher cannon into a "kills everything under the pie plate" would be a good alteration to make though. If that's what you're suggesting. If not,do correct me. I think the game would be unfun if there was a lot of big gun insta-kill going around.
I think a problem for big gunswith the recent editions is that cover saves are WAY too generous. It's easy to get a 4++, and particuarely combined with stealth and shrouded, its not that difficul to get a 3++ or even a 2++. My marines are begnning to question why the value of wearing power armour. Hopefully somethign will be done about it by 8th ed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 18:46:09
I let the dogs out
2014/08/27 19:00:17
Subject: Re:The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
2014/08/27 19:39:02
Subject: Re:The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 19:39:12
2014/08/27 21:55:31
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Psienesis wrote: Point is, EW really shouldn't be a thing for *most* of the characters in the game, excepting the *very few* who are actually effectively immortal.
Things like Old One-Eye, the named Necron Overlords, Celestine, Kharn, Abbadon (arguably)... those are the sorts of characters that deserve EW.
A named Chapter Master? Nah. Make him tough, like T6+, to make him immune to ID weapons but, outside of that? He's still just a Space Marine.
Obliterators should also have EW thanks to having wolverine regeneration.
Also considering that "dead" space marines aren't even likely KIA unless they got hit by plasma or melta weapons, it's not like they really need EW anyway. Astartes don't survive direct shots from BFG's because of regeneration, but because they go comatose and turn into a possum.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester. I think we should keep him out of these discussions.
What is with the wolverine hate?
Anyways,
I really can’t believe this has gone on for 4 pages. First off to the OP, it seems like you are arguing just to argue. I have seen plenty of arguments that explain full well why there is the EW rule on some models.
Secondly, the EW rule isn’t there to say this guy can shrug off orbital blasts or take a Lascannon shot directly to the face. Its there to show the fact that the particular character will be able to fight to his dying breath. It’s the action hero movie rule. It’s the reason in every expendables movie the bad guys cant hit gak but the heroes can shoot at the ground and kill someone somewhere. It can’t be justified in real terms because there is no way to justify it, it wasn’t created to say Calgar can take a dedicated anti tank shot to the face and be fine….
Wait a minute.
I just thought of a better way to explain it… It makes the model with the rule a cat. Stay with me here, we say cats have 9 lives because of all the near misses they encounter. So the number of wounds the model has, with the EW rule, is the number of near misses it gets.
Some times I surprise myself with how smart I am.
... except that a precision shot (a shot directly on the offending character) will STILL inflict only one wound.
Again, we are arguing real life situations to table top situations.... But if we must continue, so be it. If it is a precision shot directly on the character then obviously it didn’t out right kill him because it only nicked his shoulder or he dodged at the last moment and it only singed hair. So it still technically hit him but didnt kill because he/she is an EW.
... and then a pair of Broadsides open up on said character, and then he dies... because for some reason, a handful of rockets that a Land Raider could shrug off are more dangerous than a rail gun that eats Raiders for breakfast.
I think I may have left out something important... it's not just that the big, massive guns have little real effect. It's also that massed bolter fire or slightly-lessed-massed-but-slightly-bigger weapons have no trouble.
Consider what EW would mean for Old One-Eye. He isn't more adept at dodging railguns or Necron arrows or Demolisher guns- those things affect him just as well as they do any other Carnifex. For him, EW means that Grey Knights and Librarians can't axe him with their magic weapons.
Why should Abaddon be raped by a trio of Tau suits with plasma when he somehow magically shrugs off railgun hits?
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/27 21:58:08
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
2014/08/27 22:39:31
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
I was talking about throwing the men out in front of the guns, and not rely on LoS...
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Abaddon is a strong independent black crusader who doesn't need no realism.
Vlad_The_Obliterator wrote: The way I see it is EW doesn't give the model the ability to shrug off lethal attacks and keep fighting despite getting hit by something that should turn them to dust/goo/flesh-flakes/a memory, but the fact that they have been shown to do that in the fluff is what gives them EW. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler has been kicking around for 10,000 years fighting all sorts of enemies and has a lot of combat expertise. That Demolisher Cannon shot that hits him? He's seen that before and knows the method of positioning himself to take the least amount of damage, Tzeench says "lol nope" and makes that shot just a little weaker then it should be, and so on. The point is EW is not given, it's earned. Precise shot automatically targets the character? They have super-human senses and can react fast enough that it the shot normally aimed for their head just grazes them or something. Simple as that.
Or in the case of Yarrick: sheer, unadulterated badassery.
Said badassery will avail him not if a pair of Crisis suits with plasma jump in rapid fire range and give him one for. He dies as surely as everyone else.
That's what 105-men infantry platoons are for.
Umm... that Look Out Sir is good enough was kind of my point.
I was talking about throwing the men out in front of the guns, and not rely on LoS...
In Warp Transit to next battlefield location, Destination Unknown
I have finally read this entire post and I am ready to weigh in my opinions and comments.
There are a few points that I would like to point out. Eternal Warrior is a special rule that represents the characters position as being chosen by the gods as their champion, fortuned by fate. That is why Eternal Warriors can shrug off the most devastating attacks. They are the demi-God's of the Greek mythology, and the Superheroes of the Milky Way Galaxy.
As for the mundane models being able to shrug off the most devastating attacks, I will leave that down to pure luck. Anyone who has been involved in manufacturing will tell you that even though you can try to make a million parts all the same, you still have variances from part to part.
Whether because it is the warhead failing to arm, or a Las Cannon failing to focus its beam at that precise distance. The point being GW has declared that a failure to wound is always possible with a 16%+ chance. You can come up with your own narrative as to why the weapon failed to cause a casualty. I define casualty as any injury that takes a model out of action for the rest of the battle.
If folks are really interested as to what defines a hero over a normal soldier. Read some stories about Congressional Medal of Honor recipients, or Victorian Cross is the UK equivalent for their armed services. Both will paint a picture far better than a gaming system like WH40K can.
Cowards will be shot! Survivors will be shot again!
2014/08/28 02:07:02
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
Wolverine is, in all likelyhood, a child molester.
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 05:04:27
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/08/28 08:13:37
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
The problem isn't the legitimate discussion of these subjects, it's the trivialisation of them by using them as casual perjoratives and in irrelevant comments.
To wit: "Abaddon's forces are known for raping the civilians of the worlds they conquer" is a legitimate use of the word and excusable. "That gun was so big Abaddon got raped" is not, and is unacceptable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 08:13:50
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2014/08/28 08:41:54
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Both of these are completely unacceptable. You trivialise things that are both extremely serious and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Just because 1d4chan or reddit or whatever is disgusting doesn't mean that it's at all okay to use such language.
This site is based off a game which includes a civilization based off/survives by rape, a god of debauchery which includes rape, and on a whole where genocide and speciocide are trivialized as a daily basis where the "good guys" are people abducted as children so they can be turned into religious zealot that get off by slaughtering people. The greater delusion is thinking that W40K is family friendly. The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
The problem isn't the legitimate discussion of these subjects, it's the trivialisation of them by using them as casual perjoratives and in irrelevant comments.
To wit: "Abaddon's forces are known for raping the civilians of the worlds they conquer" is a legitimate use of the word and excusable. "That gun was so big Abaddon got raped" is not, and is unacceptable.
Yet murder is just as bad a crime as rape (if not worse considering it removes a sentient life form permanently), yet it is perfectly fine if used as a verb casually. This is nothing more than a double-standard.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/08/28 09:17:00
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2014/08/28 09:33:15
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/28 09:47:43
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Just consider "To hit" landing the shot close enough to probably affect the target vs. missing by a mile, "To wound" if it actually does manage to strike a point where it usually would do damage vs. whistling past the ear, and "Saving throw" to see if the target manages to luckily have his head just so that the shot bounces from the helmet or just grazes the scalp vs. burrowing through his head.
2014/08/29 02:04:45
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Furyou Miko wrote: No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 02:06:55
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2014/08/29 13:49:47
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Furyou Miko wrote: No, murder is not worse than rape. I would say that rape is a far worse crime, because the victim continues to suffer afterwards, whereas murder only inflicts suffering for as long as the crime is being committed.
But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Wyzilla wrote: The same conservatives that set off the fires to attack Dungeons and Dragons during the 70's and 80's or Harry Potter would be praising god if they ever found out about 40k, because they would finally have something to complain and rail about that actually exists.
Why? The Imperium seems pretty conservative-friendly to me.
I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
My dad watched The Colbert Report for several months before figuring out it was a parody...
I expect that happens a LOT in 40k.
Anyhoo... back to the discussion. It's often been talked about Abaddon being 'defeated' in a 40k game means he just fled back to his battle barge or what have you, which is fine for a narrative after two Crisis suits have lit him up like a 3-year old playing with matches under a Christmas tree... but it doesn't explain why Abaddon is equally at risk of harm from 1) a bolt of plasma that is fired from a relatively low-powered plasma weapon and 2) the guns of a frikkin' strike cruiser.
Uh, Abbadon is T5. He's not really at risk from a plasma gun.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2014/08/29 16:11:08
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Wyzilla wrote: But that's not a problem when it's a joke, it's just special treatment if rape is the only thing that is "taboo" to use in a joking manner (hell, even the N-Word is thrown around pretty freely these days). The problem is when it's used as a threat. That's where the line is crossed, the same with murder.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I think the difference is that when someone get murdered, people usually do not question his or her choice of clothing, his or her lifestyle (unless he is actually a criminal taking part in particularly violent activities), or even whether he or she enjoyed it. Different treatment begets different treatment.
Some people are afraid that jokes on rape will lead to rape being trivialized because we are seeing rape being trivialized sometime. No-one is really afraid of killing being trivialized. Generally speaking, there is a lot less consensus on rape than there is on killing.
Wyzilla wrote: The Imperium is a parody of extreme conservatism. Although that's if the people being turned into a parody would get the joke.
I think Chicks comics hold a bit of the answer .
Maybe the solution should be to remove instant death, and instead have some weapons remove multiple HP? For instance plasma is d3 hp, melta is d6hp…
Would also make melta a bit more useful against MCs…
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/29 20:29:59
Subject: The only things that should be able to survive anti-tank weapons are things that *can* survive them
Cowards will be shot! Survivors will be shot again!
.
3k Points