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One thing I like about Pitt and the movie (which I admittedly have not had a chance to see yet) is that Pitt went to the Benning School for Wayward Boys and met with a slew of troops and then hosted a viewing of the movie in the big theater room in BLDG 4 (the building where a lot of the classes are given). Son2 sent a picture with Pitt meeting the troopers. That didn't seem to get much press, but I know it was an appreciated gesture.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Unlike most of Hollywood, Pitt and Jolie seem very much on the up and up. Just watch out for Jolie's cheeks. They'll cut you!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 19:32:45
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
angelofvengeance wrote: On the subject of Fury- trailer didn't sell it for me. Not really a Brad Pitt fan either. It feels like they were hoping he'd hold it all together. Glad I gave it a miss though from some of the comments here.
Tankwise- I'm a fan of anything packing 88s
I still think people should see it. It's still the best tank movie that'll come out for years probably. The just don't make Tank movies for whatever reason. This still tells a solid tale of what it's like to be a WWII tanker - except the ending which just becomes cartoonish.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
The Bomber scene in Fury sums it up nicely.
Hundreds of bombers thundering on ahead, dogged by a half dozen fighters in defense. The Luftwaffe was tossing pebbles at the ocean at that point, didn't matter how big the pebbles were. You can't stop the tide.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
The Bomber scene in Fury sums it up nicely.
Hundreds of bombers thundering on ahead, dogged by a half dozen fighters in defense. The Luftwaffe was tossing pebbles at the ocean at that point, didn't matter how big the pebbles were. You can't stop the tide.
I agree, but the point I was trying to make is that they were far from completely inactive and that the Ta-152 and the FW-190D were existed in real life and not just on paper.
EmilCrane wrote: much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids,
And a fine job they did (this is sarcasm).
In the last 2 years of the war (really, since the Red Airforce devastated them in the Kursk counter offensives) the Luftwaffe was so drained of capable manpower and planes, they became for all intents and purposes, utterly meaningless, to anything that happened in the war. However active they were, however many bombers they shot down, none of it mattered, because they had zero capability to even slightly alter the outcome of any offensive or defensive operations.
Congrats Fw190D pilot guy. You shot down a B17 or 2. Too bad there were 30 others that all managed to reach their targets and dropped their loads, and half your buddies got shot down and now need to be replaced *pats guys back* you were important. *fw190d guy died in his second mission when ten Mustangs ganged up on him*
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
After June their air force was effectively gone. They were shipping their Luftwaffe personnel into the Army at that point.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
The Bomber scene in Fury sums it up nicely.
Hundreds of bombers thundering on ahead, dogged by a half dozen fighters in defense. The Luftwaffe was tossing pebbles at the ocean at that point, didn't matter how big the pebbles were. You can't stop the tide.
Ok so I wasn't the only one who saw the fighter contrails. Excellent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 13:45:58
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
After June their air force was effectively gone. They were shipping their Luftwaffe personnel into the Army at that point.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. While certainly not the force it was in 1940 the Luftwaffe was very active right up to the end of the war. Most allied soldiers didn't see much of the Luftwaffe because most of its combat operations were focused on stopping the bombing raids, however they contributed tactically to Operation Market Garden, the Ardennes and to the fighting around Remagen. You should ask the crews of Bomber Command and the 8th Airforce if the luftwaffe was still worth talking about, I'm sure you'll get a much different answer than what you are used to.
As for "didn't have the planes" that's not accurate either. The FW190D saw plenty of service, and was fairly common by the end of the war. The Ta-152, while only coming in late in the war, still equipped one squadron and managed to bounce some British Tempests (the best allied fighter plane that saw wartime service) and defeat them. They did have planes, just not as many as the RAF and USAAF did.
The Bomber scene in Fury sums it up nicely.
Hundreds of bombers thundering on ahead, dogged by a half dozen fighters in defense. The Luftwaffe was tossing pebbles at the ocean at that point, didn't matter how big the pebbles were. You can't stop the tide.
Ok so I wasn't the only one who saw the fighter contrails. Excellent.
Dont worry Fraz.... Your not going mad(der)...... Yet.....
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
creeping-deth87 wrote: The Tiger, on the other hand, eventually overcame most of its technical deficiencies and had a pretty good serviceability rate post-1942. Unlike the Panther, it was a pleasure to drive as it had the excellent Maybach gear box. The Panther certainly had things going for it. It had good speed, great protection, and an excellent gun, but it had crippling mechanical issues that the Germans never resolved. The Tiger was a much more reliable tank and just as deadly.
The Tiger was reliable by the time the Germans cancelled production in late 1944. That's a big thing lots of people are missing in this conversation - the Germans stopped building the Tiger because it was now outdated. The armour of the Tiger that had proved so impenetrable to 75mm and 6pdr guns in Africa was now penetrated at normal combat ranges by the upgunned Shermans with 76mm or 17pdr.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: ***I’ll agree on most of that. Killing the logistics was their best use. However, don’t forget Thunderbolts and Yaks had 500+ lb bombs which they would use if the occasion warranted. I assume the Typhoons did as well.
Very true.
Indeed, I’d argue that later tank design “went heavy” in a medium way for everyone by the end of WWII, for the reasons you noted. New engine and tank design permitted a new generation of MOBILE heavy tanks, which often were reasonably reliable vs. the Model T heavy tank designs of the Germans.
And very true again
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
A common joke in the Wehrmacht;
"If you see planes dropping bombs on no-one, that is the RAF. If you see planes dropping bombs on everyone, that is the USAF. If you see no planes at all, that is the Luftwaffe."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 05:52:55
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
"If you see planes dropping bombs on no-one, that is the RAF. If you see planes dropping bombs on everyone, that is the USAF. If you see no planes at all, that is the Luftwaffe."
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Someone said carpet bombing and we took it literally.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Simple mathematics. If the manual says one pound C4 you multiply by three since the manual itself was approved by TRADOC
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Who shelled the town in the film? It wasn't apparent if it was the Germans on the retreat or the Americans through friendly fire, but that might explain why it was stopped quite soon.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Who shelled the town in the film? It wasn't apparent if it was the Germans on the retreat or the Americans through friendly fire, but that might explain why it was stopped quite soon.
I think they left it deliberately ambiguous. It could have been either, but it's probably more likely that it was the Germans.
I just have to chime in and say that I saw it with my wife the other night. I have all sorts of gripes about it, mostly the same as what people have mentioned.
I do have this to say, though: I previously only considered two firefights in movies (yes, only two) to capture the realism and panic under machine gun fire. The first scene is the ambush from the treeline in Forest Gump. The second is at the end of the Band of Brothers series where they come under fire from an MG42 position in the woods while out on patrol.
[Spoiler?]
The scene where the Shermans escort the infantry to pick up their pinned down riflemen in Fury and then come under fire from the MG42 in the foxhole is incredibly realistic. The tracers are believable, the sound is nuts in the theater, and the snapping sounds as the bullets crack by are accurate.
These three scenes from those three movies are the only ones that actually brought back uncomfortable feelings for me. So, odd to say, but I give credit to the filmmakers for that. I think my wife could tell I was a little uncomfortable. Not crazy or anything, just that weird little shudder that goes over your skin. I'm fortunate to not have any serious issues like so many other grunt marines that I have known over the years who never had good support groups.
The history major in me threw up a little with the last scene.. It was too long, but to be fair- I went in expecting it. I mean, come on. Brad Pitt... Don't be surprised, yano
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/25 06:04:08
Have not seen Fury yet, but this more of a comment on War Movies in general. [Now this from a US perspective I have not gotten to really talk to those from other counties]
Why are we having problems with movies like Fury, we know and understand warfare than most of the Movie going public.
These movies are either made for someone who does not know what real warfare is like or if they know are making it for people who have no clue themselves. Look at the list of Movies we concider the best like The Beast, I did not make money for two reasons.
1] Zero Advertising
2] It was a realistic War Movie.
They also have to have a Plot to bring the audience in and hold them in. Content is another thing. If the crew of Fury was gunning down 14 year old boys and 60 year old men most of those who sees movies would have called for protest against it. If they had used real tactics with the Final battle we would have enjoyed it, but to the "Average Movie Viewer" without someone to explain what those tactics are would be bored and confused.
Fury was also a Late War Movie, there are vey few of those. Most people who I talk to who are not History/Military Chanel Junkies see the wnd of the war like this.
>The US kicks Rommel out of Africa
>We Finish off Italy
>Normandy
>The Bridge To Far
>Battle of the Bulge
>The Russians and US Take Berlin
Most don't know about things like that fact the Italy was still in the fight when Normandy happened and we let the Russians take berlin for Political reasons. They have no concept the Russians invaded Manchuria.
These are the people who are also making the Movies and/or Making the Movies for.
Then there is the fact the Movie has Brad Pitt in the lead role, that right there told me it was not going to be a real "War Movie", but a Plot First Realism Second Movie.
At the risk of threadomancy (only been a few days I guess), I just saw this movie and had some thoughts.
Overall, it was a fairly realistic depiction of the horrors of war on all groups involved, with the good guys, the bad guys, and those in between all being horribly killed and maimed in all sorts of ways, often with little difference in behavior between the good guys and bad guys.
There were lots of cool historical details, like Pitt holding down the antenna as he rolls into base, the uniforms all looked great, the movement of the infantry and vehicles was excellent, that sort of stuff was all pretty awesome.
The sound was unreal, that whoever was in charge of that deserves an Oscar.
That said, this movie had a fair bit of "derp" as well, as I'll get into below.
Spoiler:
The part at the beginning with Pitt jumping off his tank and stabbing the German officer on horseback reeked of comic-book fantasy, it's hard to believe a hardened combat officer (as evidenced by the Knights Cross) would just ride through a battlefield like that, alone, on a white horse, with no weapon drawn, and be such easy prey for a ploy like that. That really felt like something out of Inglorious Basterds. In fact, much of Pitt's performance felt like a modified version of his character in that film, including the obligatory "tough guy" execution of a prisoner of war.
The part with the Shermans engaging the anti-tank guns also was rather odd, the line abreast formation across an open field being exactly what such anti-tank gunners would have excelled at engaging, and watching a Pak40 bounce off a Sherman at those ranges is...well, almost nothing short of divine intervention.
The Tiger scene was pretty cool, but again, the Divine Intervention thing comes in and somehow saves Fury from two hits, the first of which certainly should not have had any issues penetrating through the log-side it apparently deflected off of and should have killed Fury then and there. That felt really forced.
The final scene was absolutely absurd however, with a single disabled tank blocking an entire battalion of infantry. The SS guys were acting like an untrained panicky rabbble, simply running through the forward arc in full view of the machine gunners like they simply wanted to die, doing stupid things like climbing the tank without a weapon drawn, etc. Additionally, despite being handed out like candy at this point in the war (almost more than actual guns), only one German seemingly had a Panzerfaust out of the entire battalion, and even that didn't kill the tank, just one guy. Then you have Pitt standing on top of the tank behind the turret with the M2 HMG, apparently completely immune to multiple MG-42's firing on him,, while he mows muppets like it ain't no thang. On and on.
The whole final scene just really felt like Rambo set in Germany, and again, extremely forced, and basically killed my suspension of disbelief. Not to mention being extremely paint-by-numbers in how each crewman was taken out in turn.
Overall, an interesting flick, but too much Rambo and Inglorious Basterds left in from keeping it being a truly spectacular war movie.
I was surprised as LeBouf's performance, for once I only hate him for the preachyness of his character, rather than simply both him and everything about his character.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/04 04:10:56
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
If you ignore the final fight scene of Fury vs Waffen-SS battalion, the rest of the movie is entirely believable (with the exception of Mr Whitehorse at the beginning perhaps).. personally I'd love to see the director and writers tackle a spinoff based around the bombing raid that they witness halfway through the movie.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
To be fair, at that stage of the war, even the SS were running a little low in terms of soldiers with actual combat experience. Still fanatical, just not combat experienced.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
To be fair, that was still utter bs and inexcusable.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Oh I understand that by that point most SS troops were highly inexperienced and unreliable... buuut even they wouldn't do something like charge a single tank head on like that, particularly not when there are quite a few excellent options for flanking it readily available. To Fury's right was a ravine with bushes (and further out was a wooded ridgeline). To Fury's left was a burning building throwing up tons of smoke and in general obscuring anything that would have moved around behind it. Fury could not have been in a more vulnerable position, particularly given the fact that the situation basically meant that all of Fury's weapons could only really fire in a relatively limited fire arc, making attack from the flanks a seemingly simple logical choice.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
They did flank Fury. Its just movie Panzerfausts are only as deadly as mandated by the script.
Early on, little kid blows up lead tank and everyone inside no problem.
Ending battle, grown SS guys either totally miss from 12 ft away OR the shot is a through and through and only manages to kill one guy.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
