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 Micky wrote:
At the end after everyone's living in Athel Loren, theres a passage about how the dark elves keep themselves amused by raiding and pillaging the remains of Brettonia. I imagine this is the corsairs doing their corsair thing, but they're probably using chariots or something instead of boats


As an aside, the friendly plaguebearer is my favourite thing in the entire book.

The Beast?

 thedarkavenger wrote:


No. They are defined by the proper name that GW gave them. Of Corsairs. The common name means pirates.

So you're saying they are defined by the word Corsairs, but that the definition of the word Corsairs doesn't matter because you say so?

If that's the logic hoops you need to jump through because you don't want to admit you're wrong go ahead, I can't argue anymore because it has ceased being an argument at this point

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


No. They are defined by the proper name that GW gave them. Of Corsairs. The common name means pirates.

So you're saying they are defined by the word Corsairs, but that the definition of the word Corsairs doesn't matter because you say so?

If that's the logic hoops you need to jump through because you don't want to admit you're wrong go ahead, I can't argue anymore because it has ceased being an argument at this point

No. Corsair has two meanings. The common name, which is given to pirates. And the proper name, which is what GW have named the unit. Assuming that the common name defines the unit is tantamount to assuming the Earth turns because hamsters run in their wheels. I.E. Wrong.

They're defined by the proper name GW gave the unit. Which means nothing but what they are. Which is raiders and reavers.


If you want to argue English with me, study it more first.

Can we ignore TDA please? In every thread Ive seen him post in he picks a point of view and argues it endlessly even when hes plainly flat out wrong. Theres no point arguing facts with him, because he deals only in opinions, its just going to derail things further to continue. Dark Elves have a piratical seafaring tradition, except to TDA, who thinks they are hippie beatnicks of the sea.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
A name is given to something to provide a definition of what it is.

Also I will accept this as you admiting to being wrong on the pirate debate.

IF a name provides a definition of what something is
AND Corsair is defined as pirate.
THEN the name of the unit defines them as being pirates.

Did Dark Avenger just get "if p, then q"d?

The real question is: who cares? I'm still calling them elf pirates. I imagine the book, while completely tossing a grenade into the magic system, shakes up the major players of the world. That doesn't mean the entire rest of the world doesn't have pirate elves or elf pirates (whichever you prefer)... Plus, mentioned, like, ONCE?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Can we ignore TDA please? In every thread Ive seen him post in he picks a point of view and argues it endlessly even when hes plainly flat out wrong. Theres no point arguing facts with him, because he deals only in opinions, its just going to derail things further to continue. Dark Elves have a piratical seafaring tradition, except to TDA, who thinks they are hippie beatnicks of the sea.

How am I wrong? I've posted a fact. There is a difference between a common name and Proper name. It's basic English that they teach you in primary school.

And Dark Elves have never had a piratical theme. Since the 4th ed book, it's been a raiding theme. It's nautical by coincidence.

Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms. Really the only thing that makes a pirate a pirate is the fact that they raid other ships at sea, which, guess what, Dark Elves do on the norm. You need not exclusively raid at sea to be a pirate, and indeed historically there have been pirate incursions and attacks on settlements on dry land.

Give up the argument, because they are wrong. Your use of 'basic English' boils down to selectively warping linguistics and terminology to suit your needs at the expense of reality. I have literally zero idea what your issue with dark elves being pirates is, when they are, in fact, pirates, and the terms you are instead trying to apply to them are effectively interchangeable with the term "pirate"

chaos0xomega wrote:Ocean going vessels are capable of navigating most rivers in the real world as well, its just a question of their being adequate port facilities for them.

Except for where the rivers are too narrow, or not deep enough, or have too many bridges over them, or...

Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms.

No. They're not. Raider is synonymous with reaver. Pirate is completely unrelated.

Are you just incapable of understanding that you can be wrong?

Plenty of things that are on-topic still here, like:

DRAIGO?!?!

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Are you just incapable of understanding that you can be wrong?

Plenty of things that are on-topic still here, like:

DRAIGO?!?!

If I was wrong, I'd admit it. People are arguing that the English language is wrong. I'm telling them otherwise.

Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.

Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms.

No. They're not. Raider is synonymous with reaver. Pirate is completely unrelated.

An actual thesauraus says otherwise. Stop arguing opinions, it gives me an unfair disadvantage when Im using facts.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.

Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms.

No. They're not. Raider is synonymous with reaver. Pirate is completely unrelated.

An actual thesauraus says otherwise. Stop arguing opinions, it gives me an unfair disadvantage when Im using facts.

Once more I say provide evidence of this claim. As OED disagrees with you.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Most ocean-going vessels (by which I define "greater than 50m long or 200 gross tonnes", as per RYA guidelines) can only get so far past the estuary before having to stop and turn round because of draught or turning circle considerations. Some rivers remain deep and wide enough for them to travel a considerable way inland (such as the Thames or the Hudson), but it's really not the rule.

Fair enough, I generally consider rivers to be navigable, with stream or creek being used to descrube anything smaller, but the actual language is deceptively unclear.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Raider, corsair, pirate, and reaver are all synonyms.

No. They're not. Raider is synonymous with reaver. Pirate is completely unrelated.

An actual thesauraus says otherwise. Stop arguing opinions, it gives me an unfair disadvantage when Im using facts.

Once more I say provide evidence of this claim. As OED disagrees with you.

Why does it matter?
This thread is going to end up getting locked because people can't stay on topic.
Everyone is being childish.
I know I have a lower post count than.....all of you, (I'm not sure how much weight that holds around here) but you're all being petty.

you sound like children

"He said X"
"Nuh uh"
"uh huh"
"Nuh uh"
"Uh Huh"
"Prove it"
"I will"
"Nuh uh"
"Uh huh"
etc.

I was enjoying this thread until a few pages back.
You are (presumably) Grown adults (or damn near) arguing about a type of elf in a fantasy universe.....using real world tools, like the english language to try to defend your position.
WHO CARES?

Thanks
Austin

I think this discussion jusy proves that not every Druchii went to Athel Loran. Some will certainly get their kicks reaving and committing piracy while raiding in a way similar to corsairs.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I think this discussion jusy proves that not every Druchii went to Athel Loran. Some will certainly get their kicks reaving and committing piracy while raiding in a way similar to corsairs.

There's a passage in the final pages of Khaine, after all the survivors are settled in Athel Loren, that says the druchii go pillaging and raiding the remains of Brettonia as a way of keeping themselves occupied and not fighting amongst themselves.

Well, there ya have it! Black Ark Pillagers.

So back to the topic of book 3.

I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
So back to the topic of book 3.

I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.

Nagash was printed based on the sales of sigmar's blood. It's why there were so few.

They didn't specifically say sigmars blood on the podcast but they did say "based on previous fantasy books" - paraphrased. It at least shows they did ramp up production to try & meet demand, just apparently not enough.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
So back to the topic of book 3.

I was listening to the new garagegamer & apparently at black library weekend they said they had printed 2,000 more copies of Khaine than glottkin or Nagash. The demand was just overwhelming. Also paperbacks are in the works.

I call bull.

Glottkin and Nagash both did not sell out of their standard editions in the first three to five minutes of preorders.

Now, maybe they printed 2k more copies of the "Limited Edition"--because that thing stayed up for hours.

I don't see bull. Remember elves are INSANELY popular right now, more demand for elves than chaos or undead.

Also people have seen the end times 1 & 2 sell out & go to ebay for 2x. Now you have people looking to buy books for that. I know people who had their friends order them (since it was lmited 1 per) just to resell them on ebay.

Stores are more willing to order them now that they have proven successful. They were wary of book I & II because let's not forget how amazingly well Storm of magic, Sigmars blood & Triumph & Treachery sold. Nagash sold out so stores ordered more glottkin, glottkin sold out quicker so even more stores ordered khaine. It's not seen as a risky investment so now most stores are maxing out their orders.

Finally End times is picking up steam amongst players. With book I people didn't know if it was a campaign or an update but since the 50% L&H got put into a BRB errata it looks like the end times rules are here to stay so more people are willing to buy the book as we don't believe it will go away in under a year.

All this can easily justify them selling out even faster despite having 2k additional copies. Also there weren't even 2k copies of the limited edition lol. it satyed up for hours because nobody wanted to pay an extra $100 for a couple art prints. I'd rather pay double on ebay for a standard edition or wait for paperback than more than double & validate their "limited" edition

Nagash didn't sell out until two days(read: Sunday) later--and that was their normal edition selling out.
Glottkin sold out one day later(Saturday)--and that was their normal edition, again.
In both cases, the limited editions and spellcards went out of stock first.


Even with as popular as Elves are, do you really think that equates to the standard copy of the book selling out in minutes and the limited edition selling out in hours compared to Nagash and Glottkin? Especially when compared to Nagash where they sold out of the Nagash model before they sold out of books?

Nothing about that lines up with "We ordered more copies because of expected demand".

Actually yes. Remember nagash was book 1, people thought it was just a campaign supplement like storm of magic or sigmars blood & tended to ignore it as did the B&M stores. Glottkin sold out quicker because of increased interest BECAUSE nagash sold out. Now that both of these have sold out people KNOW there's demand and since the FaQ they KNOW this isn't just a one off campaign so they want to buy them.

The LEs are online only. The online stock that GW can sell is the production stock MINUS what the B&M stores order. Remember what is on the GW online store is the production run - what goes to GW stores - what goes to 3rd party stores. The more 3rd parties order, the less available onine.

There's also not a great ebay market for the limited editions. Think of it like foil magic cards. A lot of LGSs won't buy foils because they're too expensive to resell & finding a buyer is hard. Ebay is the same way, sure people will try to sell them but most people won't buy foils with the sole intent to resell because it's too small a market.

My point on more players picking up end times. During books 1 & 2 the players who got them were the players who were actively interested in end times, as a story or a specific campaign. These players are more likely to buy the collectors edition because they care about more than just the rules. Now that it looks like end times will be made official rules, a lot more players want to buy them so they can get & play the new rules. These people are less likely to want to spend the extra $100 dollars for special edition as they just want the rules & the new spells. They couldn't care less about the fluff book & therefore the special edition.

Also I forgot about new end times magic. Books 1 & 2 largely affected chaos & undead. True lore of undeath and Valten/KFA but meh. With this one magic has been completely redone and every single lore has new spells, leading more people to want to buy it.

Everything I can see market wise has shown that demand for these books just keeps going up. Also an extra 2k copies isn't much extra considering the demand. They will probably print even more of book 4. But due to lead time on books they didn't know how quick glottkin would sell out by the time Khaine was already off the presses & onto boats through customs.

Considering that the End Times spell cards themselves lasted longer than the Khaine book by several hours, that is a flawed argument.

And Books 1 & 2 had "for everyone" content as well. The Lore of Undeath is for EVERYONE, not just Undead Legions, Tomb Kings, or Vampire Counts.
Book 2 had the "cityfight" rules.

And the online stock numbers that GW have is a good yardstick as to how many books they've produced with a certain number of books being earmarked for their own shops. They also have a number that is allocated to the independents, of which those independents can place an order.

Their online stock sold out in 4 minutes here in the US. My local GW got shipped exactly three copies of the book, of which he had to basically hold them for myself, a friend of mine, and then he had a single copy to put out on the shelves which would be bought by him for himself if it was still there on Sunday.

Compare that to the nearest independent that I'm aware of that got it and had ten copies, of which they are still sitting on six.

Actually I know many people who don't buy the spell cards. Myself included. Most of my gaming group just buys 5 cent magic commons & glue the spell details to that card. Much more cost-effective.

I addressed lore of undeath. It's pretty meh outside undead armies. As for city fight it's scenario specific rules that nobody I know uses or cares about.

Yes GW earmarks books for their shops & they have a number allocated for independents but independents also get 1st dibs. If they want to order more, and exceed that earmarked number, GW dips into the online sales number that they have to meed independent retailer demands.

ONE of my local ish shops ordered nagash. 2 of them ordered glottkin & maxed out there order. All 5 of them ordered Khaine and are sold out.

If you have an independent sitting on six copies they either have a low customer base for fantasy or people don't know. Hell I'd buy them & ebay them.

You can be a cynic all you want but I've seen (and besides you) heard nothing but increase in demand for end times across the board that would be consistent with what black library said.

Did Glottkin sell out? My local has 3 or 4 copies on the shelf still lol

It did, currently going on ebay for about $100