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So awesome! Looking forward to seeing how Malekith seemingly becomes good?

I really need to save up for book 4 if it turns out to be skaven.

Hopefully christmas money (if i even get any) will really help with this.

Oh and i'm not looking forward to possibly combined elves. They're bad enough by themselves esp. with all the fast cavalry and magical fast cavalry. Chances are you haven't fought em if you don't know how bad it can be. Definitely changes the game to swamping the board, using magic and hoping shooting is enough. I dunno how warriors of chaos could beat a wood elf fast cavalry list without a flying daemon prince or something and some magic. Nothing they do can catch up to the elves and they have no shooting for the most part.

My guess is the lack of a new Malekith model = he doesn't survive the war.

Also, it seems to be that the combined elf LISTS will not be all inclusive. We know there are three factions - Malekiths, Tyrions, and the "survivors". Clearly there is rather considerable support for Malekith across the three factions, but notice that Tyrion is now the avatar of Khaine? Know who worships Khaine? Wych elves, amongst others...

I think GW is going to do a better job balancing this than you think.

So they finally pick the true victor of the phoenix crown?


But basically, the uber model for the Elves is the Avatar of Khaine with a cuboid base?

So no new models for the elven release because no characters survive the book that's a shame.
Wonder when they squat the current elves to make the new survivor elves (Trade Mark) who live on.
Also from what I have heard O&G and Dwarf players should be getting nervous as any generic tropes that cannot protected will be going the same way as stuff without models. But at least there getting a more dignified send off than being eaten by nids.

SeanDrake wrote:
Also from what I have heard O&G and Dwarf...

Orcs&Gobs will be combined with ogres.
Dwarves will be rolled in with kingdoms of man/humans.

They aren't going to squat O&G and Dwarfs. Those are 2 of the most iconic races in all fantasy.

Plus it's not like they're low sellers. The new dwarf release was extremely successful plus both books have featured O&G fairly decenlty having them involved in at least 1 major engagement.

 welshhoppo wrote:
So they finally pick the true victor of the phoenix crown?


But basically, the uber model for the Elves is the Avatar of Khaine with a cuboid base?

So it's the cauldron statue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's official. This update is the worst thing ever.

A Demons army gains loremastery for all units of horrors. Multiple gateways.

And Kairos gains Loremastery: Warhammer.

Morathi goes one spell on each lore she has access to and gains all of those lores. Warlocks gain loremastery of death and dark.

Teclis becomes loremaster of all 8 lores at level 5.


Let's not forget that the light councils become even more bent as every mage knows all the spells from their chosen lore.

Interesting..I have a theory that Morathi hexed the Pheonix Throne to deliberately twist her son to darkness. I wonder what the truth of the matter will be?

thats my guess as well

http://kiwihammer.co.nz/new-end-times-magic-spells-revealed/


Apparently, 4D6 winds of magic and as soon as you know one spell you become a loremaster. Plus undispellable spells.......

I'm very keen to see how Morathi fits into this, especially following the little tangent in the new Dark Elf book that describes her little crush on Tyrion.

Morathi backing Tyrion, as he is becoming more and more Aenerion-esque seems a possibility. As is the Cult of Khaine and Hellebron teaming up with big T now that he is the Avatar of Khaine.

The prophecy surrounding Malekith's demise at the hands of a 'male sorcerer' would be a tad too predictable if that turned out to be Teclis... I'm guessing a surprise is in store there. Will be good to see Alith Anar get some screen-time too.

I know my heart is going to be hurting after this one.

 welshhoppo wrote:
http://kiwihammer.co.nz/new-end-times-magic-spells-revealed/


Apparently, 4D6 winds of magic and as soon as you know one spell you become a loremaster. Plus undispellable spells.......

So Teclis and Kairos literally gain loremastery: Warhammer.

And warlocks become even better! Purple sun and Black Horror with literally no downsides on a 10 wound 4+ ward unit! Yes please!

Ummmm... wat....

Seriously time to go buy more brolocks. Also more vampires. Nagash summons a vampire with forbidden lore and now has lore masters just wandering the streets everywhere.

I'll reserve judgement until I try it, but this seems a tad bit out there...

Also 4d6 magic does that mean 2d6 dispel? How does this affect reign of chaos?

AND WE CONJURE ARCANE FULCROMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus.....

Just a thought... What if these are like chaos ascendant and SCENARIO SPECIFIC only?

I mean come on Chaos Ascendant is pretty ridiculous but also scenario specific, if so it wouldn't be so bad but a fun way to change up games if you wanted.

 welshhoppo wrote:
But basically, the uber model for the Elves is the Avatar of Khaine with a cuboid base?

I already have this guy from years ago when 40k models came on square bases. Huzzah.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Just a thought... What if these are like chaos ascendant and SCENARIO SPECIFIC only?

I mean come on Chaos Ascendant is pretty ridiculous but also scenario specific, if so it wouldn't be so bad but a fun way to change up games if you wanted.

I dont know. 50% lords and heros made it to the brb....................

But Chaos Ascendant so far hasn't.

50% L&H has a counter balance in step-up and steadfast. Take your uber heroes & you have less troops,

This has no counter balance that I can see, like chaos ascendant. It's just a thought we won't know for sure until we see it.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
But Chaos Ascendant so far hasn't.

50% L&H has a counter balance in step-up and steadfast. Take your uber heroes & you have less troops,

This has no counter balance that I can see, like chaos ascendant. It's just a thought we won't know for sure until we see it.

Im talking about the fact that the magic phase will change to be 4d6

As am I. I can see it being just the new norm or a scenario specific. But if it's the new norm there will probably be an increase in dispel dice as well. I can't see them doing 4d6 power & 1d6 dispel. I mean at that point you've just removed dwarfs from competitive play.

As for loremaster everyone that may be scenario specific.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
As am I. I can see it being just the new norm or a scenario specific. But if it's the new norm there will probably be an increase in dispel dice as well. I can't see them doing 4d6 power & 1d6 dispel. I mean at that point you've just removed dwarfs from competitive play.

As for loremaster everyone that may be scenario specific.

The way storm or magic was that you got the highest 2 of the 4d6 but what this said was that both sides got the same dice

Welp if this is not scenario specific I am buying a bray shaman Death magic, a small bunker for him. a few units of horrrors and few lvl 1 of metal, and if gateway doesn't kill them final tranny will. Maybe fateweaver for the lols.

Both sides get the same power & dispel? Eww....

That doesn't sound fun either. now nagash is even more powerful as we have the same dice, but I have a +5+d3 to cast & a +5 to cast. Meanwhile you have a -1 to cast from my balefire...

Giving both sides the same dice would gimp magic too hard imo. The game of the magic phase is trying to bait your opponent into using their dispel dice early so you can force through your spells you REALLY want.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Both sides get the same power & dispel? Eww....

That doesn't sound fun either. now nagash is even more powerful as we have the same dice, but I have a +5+d3 to cast & a +5 to cast. Meanwhile you have a -1 to cast from my balefire...

Giving both sides the same dice would gimp magic too hard imo. The game of the magic phase is trying to bait your opponent into using their dispel dice early so you can force through your spells you REALLY want.

Gimp magic? With the 4d6, I can get off two purple suns and a black horror. And then my actual mages start casting!

TDA, no. You are blatantly wrong.

If you have 4d6 dice & I have an equal number of dispel dice, given we both have lvl 4s we are on equal footing to cast.

Currently the caster almost always has more dice than the dispeller. This allows more spells to get through. If you even those dice, not counting for IF, there will be fewer spells actually cast.

Which would you rather have 14 dice & I have 14. Or you have 7 and I have 4? Assuming perfectly average 2d6 rolls of 7. Not accounting for the odds of IF me having 7 and you having 4 allows me to statistically get off more spells as I have a dice advantage.

iirc the odds of getting IF is around 27% on 6 dice. Should you get IF on ONE spell, I know out dice you by 6. Meaning I can stop almost any spell I want to.

Sorry that's about 26.3% miscast on 6d6.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
TDA, no. You are blatantly wrong.

If you have 4d6 dice & I have an equal number of dispel dice, given we both have lvl 4s we are on equal footing to cast.

Currently the caster almost always has more dice than the dispeller. This allows more spells to get through. If you even those dice, not counting for IF, there will be fewer spells actually cast.

Which would you rather have 14 dice & I have 14. Or you have 7 and I have 4? Assuming perfectly average 2d6 rolls of 7. Not accounting for the odds of IF me having 7 and you having 4 allows me to statistically get off more spells as I have a dice advantage.

iirc the odds of getting IF is around 27% on 6 dice. Should you get IF on ONE spell, I know out dice you by 6. Meaning I can stop almost any spell I want to.

Sorry that's about 26.3% miscast on 6d6.

When I roll an average of 14 dice, I can safely 4 dice one purple sun and 5 dice the others. This will result in Morathi's going off, one (Probably)irresistible and one dispel. On rough calculations. Even Nagash can't stop them all.

Also my argument isn't what you can CAST but what I canDISPEL. So how does only 1 get dispelled?

Maybe you missed the part where I am under the impression for namiel that both caster & dispeller have the SAME NUMBER of dice.

Except I have an equal chance at stopping them. For every 4 dice you throw I can also throw 4. For every 5 you throw I can also throw 5.

So let's say you throw 4, you have a 13% IF / Miscast chance.
if you throw 5 this goes up to 19.6. Still not a great chance.

14d6 generate on average 49 points worth of magical power. This means I have 49 points worth of magical dispel. Not accounting for special characters because gak gets wonky and I'm not a math major, the dispeller wins ties.

Also let's say you IF that 4 dice spell. Now for your next 2 spells you throw 5 dice, I throw 6 because I have a dice advantage over you.

Working on straight numbers magic would be gimped because the dispell dice receives an imbalanced boost. Power gains 2d6 dice, dispel gains 3d6.

It's a scale. if one side of the scale has 2d6 and the other has 1d6 the scale is imbalanced. If you then add 2d6 to the cast side & 3d6 to the dispell side the scales are balanced. You have given an advantage to the dispel, this has taken the advantage AWAY from casting, therefore casting has been gimped. If you have 28.5 and I have 14 you are stronger by 14. If you have 49 and I have 49 we are EQUAL, ok so technically you were't gimped but you have been made less effective by me being buffed to be more effective at stopping you.

Not to mention what happens if you IF & lose power dice, meaning I have a bigger advantage & reducing the chance of further IFs. Also yes I am aware brolocks don't miscast like normal but I'm talking in general not specifics for particular armies.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Also my argument isn't what you can CAST but what I canDISPEL. So how does only 1 get dispelled?

Maybe you missed the part where I am under the impression for namiel that both caster & dispeller have the SAME NUMBER of dice.

Except I have an equal chance at stopping them. For every 4 dice you throw I can also throw 4. For every 5 you throw I can also throw 5.

So let's say you throw 4, you have a 13% IF / Miscast chance.
if you throw 5 this goes up to 19.6. Still not a great chance.

14d6 generate on average 49 points worth of magical power. This means I have 49 points worth of magical dispel. Not accounting for special characters because gak gets wonky and I'm not a math major, the dispeller wins ties.

Also let's say you IF that 4 dice spell. Now for your next 2 spells you throw 5 dice, I throw 6 because I have a dice advantage over you.

Working on straight numbers magic would be gimped because the dispell dice receives an imbalanced boost. Power gains 2d6 dice, dispel gains 3d6.

It's a scale. if one side of the scale has 2d6 and the other has 1d6 the scale is imbalanced. If you then add 2d6 to the cast side & 3d6 to the dispell side the scales are balanced. You have given an advantage to the dispel, this has taken the advantage AWAY from casting, therefore casting has been gimped. If you have 28.5 and I have 14 you are stronger by 14. If you have 49 and I have 49 we are EQUAL, ok so technically you were't gimped but you have been made less effective by me being buffed to be more effective at stopping you.

Not to mention what happens if you IF & lose power dice, meaning I have a bigger advantage & reducing the chance of further IFs. Also yes I am aware brolocks don't miscast like normal but I'm talking in general not specifics for particular armies.

Okay. For argument's sake, say I roll 14 dice.

Warlocks 5 dice a purple sun. Averages say it's 2 4s, and 3 3s. That's a 19. You then throw 4 dice with your level 4 to stop it.


The second unit does the same thing. Averages dictate that it's the other average. 3 4s and 2 3s. That's a 20. You then throw 5 dice. You can stop it.

With my last 4 dice. Morathi Purple suns. She gets the first average. That's 23(assuming she rolls a 2 for her bonus.) On average dice, that's either a 21 or a 22.

i think you done goofed in your math let me see if I can fix it. Also if you're going to claim morathi I claim nagash. Not accounting for special characters magic is still gimped.

So you throw 5 dice, I throw 4. You have a 19 I have a 19. Dice totals are Power:9 Dispell 10 with a lvl 4 this goes through 18 to 19

You throw 5 I throw 5. You avg 19.5 (17.5+2) I average 22.5 (17.5+5) Dice totals are now Power: 4 Dispell 5 Even on a lvl 4 I win (17.5 vs 21.5)

Morathi throws 4, scores an avg of 14 + her lvl 4 is 18 plus her bonus (2) is 20 where do you get to 23?. I throw 5 Dice to stop it. Avg is 17.5 + my lvl 5 is 22.5 I stop you by 2.5 on average. Even on a lvl 4 I stop you by 1.5.

So in your system you get through ONE spell by a power margin of ONE. Against most armies, against anyone with a lvl 5 you get NOTHING... good day sir!

Now let's say we keep using the old non gimped system.

You have 7 I have 4. Brolocks 3 dice a spell. It either goes off or I throw 2 dice to stop it. (x-1 as you had) You avg 12.5 even with nagash at +5 I only get 12. You win by .5.

now morathi uses her 4 dice to cast purple sun and I only have 2 to stop it. Morathi averages 20 I average 12 with nagash. you win again by a margin of 8

In the old system you get 2 spells off on average. I don't see how you can look at those numbers & still think this change is better for casters...

Even using your own "arguments sake" in one case you get NO spells off, in the other you clearly get one spell off, possibly 2. By a much wider margin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At this point I have mathematically proven multiple ways (dice differential, total power differential, broken down into individual casts)

At this point if you still believe 4d6 both is better for the caster than 2d6 vs 1d6 I cannot help you as you are arguing with numbers.