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No because your logic is based on ignoreing how the english language functions and interpreting rules how you see fit.
I'll stand by my own self-assessment of my capability of using the English language, thank you. Probability-wise, no one in this thread exceeds my qualifications on that count.
The history of you debating on YMDC is proof of you lack of english comprehension. Why else is almost every thread you have a long standing argument in that you are the only one arguing your case? Because you are the only one misinterpreting the rules.
I suggest you use rules to argue your case instead of an ad-hominem attack.
I tried and you keep refusing to believe me because of you false notion that a plural is also singular. So now I'm trying to point out that your grasp on the English language has errors in it.
I think you need to re-acquaint yourself with the rules.
No, you need to. I and many people here have told you the rules that disprove your argument and you insist on ignoring it.
This isn't a popularity contest. You need to actually come up with rules and not just '20 Sallys agree.' Who the fudge cares about Sally's opinion?
There you go again. You used a strawman to dismiss and ignore my argument.
I am the one asking for you to debate me on the rules. So to be abundantly clear, DEBATE ME ON THE RULES.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: What, like the rules you gave me that allow you to choose/tell you which of the multiple Spyders are 'the Spyder'?
Oh, wait...
There is a formation spyder and I add 2 spyders to the unit and I keep track. I am not sure why you keep trying to task me with this argument that has been settled pages ago.
Settled by you ignoring me and not, as I asked providing me with a rule.
You can't claim 'completely RAW' when there are no rules that tell which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or allow you to choose one.
You can't just say "I'll keep track" as if the rules tell you which one is 'the Spyder'.
However you are told how to determine who has taken wounds.
There are no rules that tell you how to determine which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
Also you have yet to prove that one Spyder can be a part of the formation while the others in his aren't, and what those Spyders are then a part of.
Unless you answer the above I'll assume you are ignoring me because you have no rules to prove that a unit can have one model be a part of a formation while the rest are not and that you agree that, unlike for Wounds, there are no rules that tell you how to determine who 'the Spyder' is.
I'm quite sure the whole Unit ends up being part of the formation. You'd have to ask the players who purchase DT for their formations what they end up belonging to....
That's what I thought, the whole unit has to be a part of the formation.
Yet again it seems col keeps dodging how he can keep track of which Spyder is 'the Spyder' when we aren't told which one is 'the Spyder' or if/how we can niminate one to be 'the Spyder'.
I'll concede that col is not only correct that RAW you can have 2-3 Spyders (as I said in my first post in this thread) but that you can benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines' as there is a rule/multiple rules that specifically allow you to nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
Until then until he gives me something of worth I'll stick with my attitude of 'He can't select a Spyder as 'the Spyder' to keep track of and can't benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
It would depend on whether the 'Adaptive Subroutines' becomes plural because you now have 3 Spyders, or if it must stay singular (you usually are not allowed to modify - even making plural- Rules as they are written).
If singular, there will be either a HYWPI method or RaW conclusion of which one out of the 3 is concerned.
For example i'd say that by RaW there is 1 Spyder 'selected', while the 2 chosen as options (just like the DTs) will not benefit from the rule. It must be "marked" throughout the game.( "I keep track")
I disagree that RAW 1 Spyder (the 'first' Spyder in this unit) is 'the Spyder' because there are no written rules that say that, you'd be assuming that 'the Spyder' is the first Spyder in the unit.
As reference 'Adaptive Subroutines' states
[irrelevant info (when the rules is activated and the special rules you can choose from] ... The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]
It comes down to the order of things (If there even is one?)
You purchase the Formation, and the Spyder has 'Adaptive Subroutines'. The spider then takes an additional Option of +2 Spyders. I don't think they'd get 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
Just as you don't buy the DT, then take the formation that lets you select them. You buy the formation, which has rules, then purchase Options for it (such as Transports)
However, every model in the Formation has the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, not just the initial Spyder (and therefore any Spyder taken along with him will have the rule, too). I still don't see any rules that clearly, as written, tell you which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
What makes you think any spyder beyond the spyder in the formation would have that rule? Do you have a rule that supports that thinking?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: What, like the rules you gave me that allow you to choose/tell you which of the multiple Spyders are 'the Spyder'?
Oh, wait...
There is a formation spyder and I add 2 spyders to the unit and I keep track. I am not sure why you keep trying to task me with this argument that has been settled pages ago.
Settled by you ignoring me and not, as I asked providing me with a rule.
You can't claim 'completely RAW' when there are no rules that tell which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or allow you to choose one.
You can't just say "I'll keep track" as if the rules tell you which one is 'the Spyder'.
The formation benefits apply to 1 spyder. I add the 2 spyders because the rules allow me to. I keep track.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 08:47:00
However you are told how to determine who has taken wounds.
There are no rules that tell you how to determine which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
Also you have yet to prove that one Spyder can be a part of the formation while the others in his aren't, and what those Spyders are then a part of.
Unless you answer the above I'll assume you are ignoring me because you have no rules to prove that a unit can have one model be a part of a formation while the rest are not and that you agree that, unlike for Wounds, there are no rules that tell you how to determine who 'the Spyder' is.
I'm quite sure the whole Unit ends up being part of the formation. You'd have to ask the players who purchase DT for their formations what they end up belonging to....
That's what I thought, the whole unit has to be a part of the formation.
Yet again it seems col keeps dodging how he can keep track of which Spyder is 'the Spyder' when we aren't told which one is 'the Spyder' or if/how we can niminate one to be 'the Spyder'.
I'll concede that col is not only correct that RAW you can have 2-3 Spyders (as I said in my first post in this thread) but that you can benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines' as there is a rule/multiple rules that specifically allow you to nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
Until then until he gives me something of worth I'll stick with my attitude of 'He can't select a Spyder as 'the Spyder' to keep track of and can't benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
It would depend on whether the 'Adaptive Subroutines' becomes plural because you now have 3 Spyders, or if it must stay singular (you usually are not allowed to modify - even making plural- Rules as they are written).
If singular, there will be either a HYWPI method or RaW conclusion of which one out of the 3 is concerned.
For example i'd say that by RaW there is 1 Spyder 'selected', while the 2 chosen as options (just like the DTs) will not benefit from the rule. It must be "marked" throughout the game.( "I keep track")
I disagree that RAW 1 Spyder (the 'first' Spyder in this unit) is 'the Spyder' because there are no written rules that say that, you'd be assuming that 'the Spyder' is the first Spyder in the unit.
As reference 'Adaptive Subroutines' states
[irrelevant info (when the rules is activated and the special rules you can choose from] ... The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]
It comes down to the order of things (If there even is one?)
You purchase the Formation, and the Spyder has 'Adaptive Subroutines'. The spider then takes an additional Option of +2 Spyders. I don't think they'd get 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
Just as you don't buy the DT, then take the formation that lets you select them. You buy the formation, which has rules, then purchase Options for it (such as Transports)
However, every model in the Formation has the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, not just the initial Spyder (and therefore any Spyder taken along with him will have the rule, too). I still don't see any rules that clearly, as written, tell you which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
I see what you mean. Thing is, i am really unsure whether we can say that these added options are "fully part" of the Formation. Transports or extra Spyders would logically be part of the formation, but no rules tell you so or mention what you do in these cases.
I am more than inclined to think of an "original Spyder", the only one with the rule, but none of us have rules to support A or B...
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
I think everyone needs to take a step back, take 10 minutes to breathe, and present your arguments again.
If this keeps up as it is, the thread will be locked.
Nilok wrote: I think everyone needs to take a step back, take 10 minutes to breathe, and present your arguments again.
If this keeps up as it is, the thread will be locked.
Should we put up more pretty boxes to appease the Mod-Gods?
I think the arguments have pretty much reached the un-resolvable conclusion question:
Are the 2 Spyder taken as options part of the Formation or not?
And do they have the 'Adaptive Subroutines' rule, which is RaW singular to 1 Spyder ("THE spyder") ?
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Nilok wrote: I think everyone needs to take a step back, take 10 minutes to breathe, and present your arguments again.
If this keeps up as it is, the thread will be locked.
Should we put up more pretty boxes to appease the Mod-Gods?
I think the arguments have pretty much reached the un-resolvable conclusion question:
Are the 2 Spyder taken as options part of the Formation or not?
And do they have the 'Adaptive Subroutines' rule, which is RaW singular to 1 Spyder ("THE spyder") ?
Right, the counter argument wants to block the clear permission granted to access the options in the spyder army entry list, but is struggling to find a clear rule to do so.
col_impact wrote: Right, the counter argument wants to block the clear permission granted to access the options in the spyder army entry list, but is struggling to find a clear rule to do so.
While you and CrownAxe were creating pretty boxes, it might be that you completely missed the compelling evidence i provided to show that taking 3 Spyders is indeed allowed, but creates an issue with the 'Adaptive Subroutines' rule, as i have just said above.
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
However you are told how to determine who has taken wounds. There are no rules that tell you how to determine which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
Also you have yet to prove that one Spyder can be a part of the formation while the others in his aren't, and what those Spyders are then a part of.
Unless you answer the above I'll assume you are ignoring me because you have no rules to prove that a unit can have one model be a part of a formation while the rest are not and that you agree that, unlike for Wounds, there are no rules that tell you how to determine who 'the Spyder' is.
I'm quite sure the whole Unit ends up being part of the formation. You'd have to ask the players who purchase DT for their formations what they end up belonging to....
That's what I thought, the whole unit has to be a part of the formation.
Yet again it seems col keeps dodging how he can keep track of which Spyder is 'the Spyder' when we aren't told which one is 'the Spyder' or if/how we can niminate one to be 'the Spyder'.
I'll concede that col is not only correct that RAW you can have 2-3 Spyders (as I said in my first post in this thread) but that you can benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines' as there is a rule/multiple rules that specifically allow you to nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
Until then until he gives me something of worth I'll stick with my attitude of 'He can't select a Spyder as 'the Spyder' to keep track of and can't benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
It would depend on whether the 'Adaptive Subroutines' becomes plural because you now have 3 Spyders, or if it must stay singular (you usually are not allowed to modify - even making plural- Rules as they are written). If singular, there will be either a HYWPI method or RaW conclusion of which one out of the 3 is concerned.
For example i'd say that by RaW there is 1 Spyder 'selected', while the 2 chosen as options (just like the DTs) will not benefit from the rule. It must be "marked" throughout the game.( "I keep track")
I disagree that RAW 1 Spyder (the 'first' Spyder in this unit) is 'the Spyder' because there are no written rules that say that, you'd be assuming that 'the Spyder' is the first Spyder in the unit.
As reference 'Adaptive Subroutines' states
[irrelevant info (when the rules is activated and the special rules you can choose from] ... The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]
It comes down to the order of things (If there even is one?) You purchase the Formation, and the Spyder has 'Adaptive Subroutines'. The spider then takes an additional Option of +2 Spyders. I don't think they'd get 'Adaptive Subroutines'. Just as you don't buy the DT, then take the formation that lets you select them. You buy the formation, which has rules, then purchase Options for it (such as Transports)
However, every model in the Formation has the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, not just the initial Spyder (and therefore any Spyder taken along with him will have the rule, too). I still don't see any rules that clearly, as written, tell you which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
I see what you mean. Thing is, i am really unsure whether we can say that these added options are "fully part" of the Formation. Transports or extra Spyders would logically be part of the formation, but no rules tell you so or mention what you do in these cases.
I am more than inclined to think of an "original Spyder", the only one with the rule, but none of us have rules to support A or B...
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
In any case, if you take multiple Spyders you break 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:01:50
However you are told how to determine who has taken wounds.
There are no rules that tell you how to determine which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
Also you have yet to prove that one Spyder can be a part of the formation while the others in his aren't, and what those Spyders are then a part of.
Unless you answer the above I'll assume you are ignoring me because you have no rules to prove that a unit can have one model be a part of a formation while the rest are not and that you agree that, unlike for Wounds, there are no rules that tell you how to determine who 'the Spyder' is.
I'm quite sure the whole Unit ends up being part of the formation. You'd have to ask the players who purchase DT for their formations what they end up belonging to....
That's what I thought, the whole unit has to be a part of the formation.
Yet again it seems col keeps dodging how he can keep track of which Spyder is 'the Spyder' when we aren't told which one is 'the Spyder' or if/how we can niminate one to be 'the Spyder'.
I'll concede that col is not only correct that RAW you can have 2-3 Spyders (as I said in my first post in this thread) but that you can benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines' as there is a rule/multiple rules that specifically allow you to nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
Until then until he gives me something of worth I'll stick with my attitude of 'He can't select a Spyder as 'the Spyder' to keep track of and can't benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
It would depend on whether the 'Adaptive Subroutines' becomes plural because you now have 3 Spyders, or if it must stay singular (you usually are not allowed to modify - even making plural- Rules as they are written).
If singular, there will be either a HYWPI method or RaW conclusion of which one out of the 3 is concerned.
For example i'd say that by RaW there is 1 Spyder 'selected', while the 2 chosen as options (just like the DTs) will not benefit from the rule. It must be "marked" throughout the game.( "I keep track")
I disagree that RAW 1 Spyder (the 'first' Spyder in this unit) is 'the Spyder' because there are no written rules that say that, you'd be assuming that 'the Spyder' is the first Spyder in the unit.
As reference 'Adaptive Subroutines' states
[irrelevant info (when the rules is activated and the special rules you can choose from] ... The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]
It comes down to the order of things (If there even is one?)
You purchase the Formation, and the Spyder has 'Adaptive Subroutines'. The spider then takes an additional Option of +2 Spyders. I don't think they'd get 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
Just as you don't buy the DT, then take the formation that lets you select them. You buy the formation, which has rules, then purchase Options for it (such as Transports)
However, every model in the Formation has the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, not just the initial Spyder (and therefore any Spyder taken along with him will have the rule, too). I still don't see any rules that clearly, as written, tell you which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
I see what you mean. Thing is, i am really unsure whether we can say that these added options are "fully part" of the Formation. Transports or extra Spyders would logically be part of the formation, but no rules tell you so or mention what you do in these cases.
I am more than inclined to think of an "original Spyder", the only one with the rule, but none of us have rules to support A or B...
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
In any case, if you take multiple Spyders you break 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
I think the formation benefits can be applied to 1 canoptek spyder, 1 unit of scarabs and 1 unit of wraiths. because that is what is listed.
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
Indeed, so everything would actually support "Extras" to join(be part of) Formations. "within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation" would then have to apply to all 3, as a general "the"
Possibly confusing example: You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:05:25
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
col_impact wrote: Right, the counter argument wants to block the clear permission granted to access the options in the spyder army entry list, but is struggling to find a clear rule to do so.
While you and CrownAxe were creating pretty boxes, it might be that you completely missed the compelling evidence i provided to show that taking 3 Spyders is indeed allowed, but creates an issue with the 'Adaptive Subroutines' rule, as i have just said above.
I did notice and appreciate.
The issue with subroutines is merely a bookkeeping issue.
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
Indeed, so everything would actually support "Extras" to join(be part of) Formations. "within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation" would then have to apply to all 3, as a general "the"
Not exactly. The benefits apply to 1 unit of wraiths which includes up to 6 wraiths in a unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:05:22
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
Indeed, so everything would actually support "Extras" to join(be part of) Formations. "within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation" would then have to apply to all 3, as a general "the"
Possibly confusing example: You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
Though it specifies a singular Spyder, which taken literally RAW, would break the rule as nothing dictates which is 'the Spyder' or if you get to choose which is.
As for your example, you wouldn't know which train 'the train' refers to, so you wouldn't know if you were in 12" of it or not.
Which, in the case of the Spyders, you wouldn't know either. You could assume, but you may be incorrect. I suppose a case could be made that, using your example, if the unit was within 12" of every Spyder in the Formation you'd get the bonus (because if you're within 12" of all of them you must be within 12" of 'the' one), though that is stretching the fact that the rule clearly to a single Spyder to a point that, even if a person was willing to agree, RAW, you could have 3 Spyders, most likely wouldn't agree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:12:04
However you are told how to determine who has taken wounds.
There are no rules that tell you how to determine which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
Also you have yet to prove that one Spyder can be a part of the formation while the others in his aren't, and what those Spyders are then a part of.
Unless you answer the above I'll assume you are ignoring me because you have no rules to prove that a unit can have one model be a part of a formation while the rest are not and that you agree that, unlike for Wounds, there are no rules that tell you how to determine who 'the Spyder' is.
I'm quite sure the whole Unit ends up being part of the formation. You'd have to ask the players who purchase DT for their formations what they end up belonging to....
That's what I thought, the whole unit has to be a part of the formation.
Yet again it seems col keeps dodging how he can keep track of which Spyder is 'the Spyder' when we aren't told which one is 'the Spyder' or if/how we can niminate one to be 'the Spyder'.
I'll concede that col is not only correct that RAW you can have 2-3 Spyders (as I said in my first post in this thread) but that you can benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines' as there is a rule/multiple rules that specifically allow you to nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
Until then until he gives me something of worth I'll stick with my attitude of 'He can't select a Spyder as 'the Spyder' to keep track of and can't benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
It would depend on whether the 'Adaptive Subroutines' becomes plural because you now have 3 Spyders, or if it must stay singular (you usually are not allowed to modify - even making plural- Rules as they are written).
If singular, there will be either a HYWPI method or RaW conclusion of which one out of the 3 is concerned.
For example i'd say that by RaW there is 1 Spyder 'selected', while the 2 chosen as options (just like the DTs) will not benefit from the rule. It must be "marked" throughout the game.( "I keep track")
I disagree that RAW 1 Spyder (the 'first' Spyder in this unit) is 'the Spyder' because there are no written rules that say that, you'd be assuming that 'the Spyder' is the first Spyder in the unit.
As reference 'Adaptive Subroutines' states
[irrelevant info (when the rules is activated and the special rules you can choose from] ... The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]
It comes down to the order of things (If there even is one?)
You purchase the Formation, and the Spyder has 'Adaptive Subroutines'. The spider then takes an additional Option of +2 Spyders. I don't think they'd get 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
Just as you don't buy the DT, then take the formation that lets you select them. You buy the formation, which has rules, then purchase Options for it (such as Transports)
However, every model in the Formation has the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, not just the initial Spyder (and therefore any Spyder taken along with him will have the rule, too). I still don't see any rules that clearly, as written, tell you which Spyder is 'the Spyder'.
I see what you mean. Thing is, i am really unsure whether we can say that these added options are "fully part" of the Formation. Transports or extra Spyders would logically be part of the formation, but no rules tell you so or mention what you do in these cases.
I am more than inclined to think of an "original Spyder", the only one with the rule, but none of us have rules to support A or B...
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
In any case, if you take multiple Spyders you break 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
Why exactly does taking multiple Spyders break subroutines? You seem to be adhering to a rationale not found in the rules themselves.
Possibly confusing example:
You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Why exactly does taking multiple Spyders break subroutines? You seem to be adhering to a rationale not found in the rules themselves.
Because it refers to "THE spyder", which is hard to do as all 3 are part of the Formation and in a Unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:08:42
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
Indeed, so everything would actually support "Extras" to join(be part of) Formations. "within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation" would then have to apply to all 3, as a general "the"
Though it specifies a singular Spyder, which taken literally RAW, would break the rule as nothing dictates which is 'the Spyder' or if you get to choose which is.
Except we can keep track of one. You are making an issue where there is none.
In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
Indeed, so everything would actually support "Extras" to join(be part of) Formations. "within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation" would then have to apply to all 3, as a general "the"
Though it specifies a singular Spyder, which taken literally RAW, would break the rule as nothing dictates which is 'the Spyder' or if you get to choose which is.
Would it not be the original Spyder that was purchased with the formation?
Possibly confusing example:
You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Why exactly does taking multiple Spyders break subroutines? You seem to be adhering to a rationale not found in the rules themselves.
Because it refers to "THE spyder", which is hard to do as all 3 are part of the Formation and in a Unit.
What rule makes you think all 3 are part of the formation and not just the one?
col_impact wrote: Except we can keep track of one. You are making an issue where there is none.
Nilok wrote: Would it not be the original Spyder that was purchased with the formation?
Problem is this:
All (most?) Units in the formation have this rule:
"The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]"
How do you follow the above rule on Turn 2, when all 3 Spyder are part of a Unit and part of the Formation? "only" the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation (but all 3 are) would benefit from the rule.
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Because several posts have gone by while I've been editing my previous post, I'll re-post this here:
[@ BlackTalos]
As for your example, you wouldn't know which train 'the train' refers to, so you wouldn't know if you were in 12" of it or not.
Which, in the case of the Spyders, you wouldn't know either. You could assume, but you may be incorrect.
I suppose a case could be made that, using your example, if the unit was within 12" of every Spyder in the Formation you'd get the bonus (because if you're within 12" of all of them you must be within 12" of 'the' one), though that is stretching the fact that the rule clearly to a single Spyder to a point that, even if a person was willing to agree, RAW, you could have 3 Spyders, most likely wouldn't agree.
@ Nilok:
RAW, nothing states that the 'first' Spyder is 'the Spyder', esspecially since all the Spyders (indeed, all the models in the Formation) have the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule.
col_impact wrote: Except we can keep track of one. You are making an issue where there is none.
Nilok wrote: Would it not be the original Spyder that was purchased with the formation?
Problem is this:
All (most?) Units in the formation have this rule:
"The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefits from the effects of the chosen special rule, ... [States when the effect ends]"
How do you follow the above rule on Turn 2, when all 3 Spyder are part of a Unit and part of the Formation? "only" the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation (but all 3 are) would benefit from the rule.
Why do you think all 3 spyders are part of the formation? We don't have rules telling us how to parse formation membership and unit membership.
col_impact wrote: What rule makes you think all 3 are part of the formation and not just the one?
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
If the +2 Spyder are not "in the Formation", additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units are not either, and would not actually have the 'Adaptive Tactics' rule (they are not part of the Formation)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:16:40
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Because several posts have gone by while I've been editing my previous post, I'll re-post this here:
[@ BlackTalos]
As for your example, you wouldn't know which train 'the train' refers to, so you wouldn't know if you were in 12" of it or not.
Which, in the case of the Spyders, you wouldn't know either. You could assume, but you may be incorrect.
I suppose a case could be made that, using your example, if the unit was within 12" of every Spyder in the Formation you'd get the bonus (because if you're within 12" of all of them you must be within 12" of 'the' one), though that is stretching the fact that the rule clearly to a single Spyder to a point that, even if a person was willing to agree, RAW, you could have 3 Spyders, most likely wouldn't agree.
@ Nilok:
RAW, nothing states that the 'first' Spyder is 'the Spyder', esspecially since all the Spyders (indeed, all the models in the Formation) have the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule.
The subroutines is a formation rule. Why do you think it acts on the whole unit of spyders and not just the spyder the formation refers to?
Possibly confusing example:
You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Why exactly does taking multiple Spyders break subroutines? You seem to be adhering to a rationale not found in the rules themselves.
Because it refers to "THE spyder", which is hard to do as all 3 are part of the Formation and in a Unit.
What rule makes you think all 3 are part of the formation and not just the one?
Because all 3 have to be, there's no way they can't be, unless you also say that Wraiths and Scarabs beyond the initial 3 aren't part of the Formation (and therefore don't benefit from RP/Shred/Fleet)
col_impact wrote: What rule makes you think all 3 are part of the formation and not just the one?
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: In that case, then, additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units wouldn't benefit from 'Adaptive Tactics' (won't benefit from the effects of RP/Shred/Fleet) as they aren't 'fully part' of the Formation (if we assume that the additional Spyders aren't).
If the +2 Spyder are not "in the Formation", additional Scarabs and Wraiths purchased for their units are not either, and would not actually have the 'Adaptive Tactics' rule (they are not part of the Formation)
The formation specifies one unit of wraiths and one unit of scarabs. If additional scarabs and wraiths fall under 1 unit why wouldn't they get the subroutine?
Possibly confusing example:
You are in a station, and you are next to "the" train. But no one told you that there were 5 trains. Are you still correctly within 12" of "the" train?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: Why exactly does taking multiple Spyders break subroutines? You seem to be adhering to a rationale not found in the rules themselves.
Because it refers to "THE spyder", which is hard to do as all 3 are part of the Formation and in a Unit.
What rule makes you think all 3 are part of the formation and not just the one?
Because all 3 have to be, there's no way they can't be, unless you also say that Wraiths and Scarabs beyond the initial 3 aren't part of the Formation (and therefore don't benefit from RP/Shred/Fleet)
The formation specifies 1 unit of wraiths. I can put up to 6 wraiths under 1 unit. This is exceedingly clear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:19:21
Matt.Kingsley wrote: As for your example, you wouldn't know which train 'the train' refers to, so you wouldn't know if you were in 12" of it or not.
Which, in the case of the Spyders, you wouldn't know either. You could assume, but you may be incorrect.
I suppose a case could be made that, using your example, if the unit was within 12" of every Spyder in the Formation you'd get the bonus (because if you're within 12" of all of them you must be within 12" of 'the' one), though that is stretching the fact that the rule clearly to a single Spyder to a point that, even if a person was willing to agree, RAW, you could have 3 Spyders, most likely wouldn't agree.
The thing is, i don't think you need to know if it is the right train (for the 12" part). If i ask whether you are within 12" of "THE Spyder", any one of the 3 (being part of the Formation) will be "the Spyder".
The rules work mainly with Yes/No answers. If the question is:
"are you within 12" of "THE Spyder"?" The answer would be "Yes", not: "which one?" (although that would be the 'logical' answer)
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: As for your example, you wouldn't know which train 'the train' refers to, so you wouldn't know if you were in 12" of it or not.
Which, in the case of the Spyders, you wouldn't know either. You could assume, but you may be incorrect.
I suppose a case could be made that, using your example, if the unit was within 12" of every Spyder in the Formation you'd get the bonus (because if you're within 12" of all of them you must be within 12" of 'the' one), though that is stretching the fact that the rule clearly to a single Spyder to a point that, even if a person was willing to agree, RAW, you could have 3 Spyders, most likely wouldn't agree.
The thing is, i don't think you need to know if it is the right train (for the 12" part). If i ask whether you are within 12" of "THE Spyder", any one of the 3 (being part of the Formation) will be "the Spyder".
The rules work mainly with Yes/No answers. If the question is:
"are you within 12" of "THE Spyder"?" The answer would be "Yes", not: "which one?" (although that would be the 'logical' answer)
If there is a difference between spyders the player must keep track. One of those spyders is in the formation and 2 are not.
col_impact wrote: The formation specifies 1 unit of wraiths. I can put up to 6 wraiths under 1 unit. This is exceedingly clear.
Because the formation specifies a unit of wraiths, not just a wraith.
For the spyder portion of the formation it specifies "a spyder" not "a unit of spyders". So if you have 2-3 spyders you don't have "a spyder" you have "a unit of spyders" which is not what the formation specified.
So to recap, we get one Spyder for the formation, have permission to buy more Spyders from the Spyder entry permissions, have no restrictions, but only one Spyder model is in the formation and may benefit from its rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:28:20
col_impact wrote: The formation specifies 1 unit of wraiths. I can put up to 6 wraiths under 1 unit. This is exceedingly clear.
Because the formation specifies a unit of wraiths, not just a wraith.
For the spyder portion of the formation it specifies "a spyder" not "a unit of spyders". So if you have 2-3 spyders you don't have "a spyder" you have "a unit of spyders" which is not what the formation specified.
You are lacking a rule which backs up your approach. Start quoting rules!
The formation has 'no restriction' and refers to using page 93.
Page 93 has the option to add 2 Spyders.
I add 2 spyders.
The formation benefits the original spyder. I keep track.
All the rules support me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nilok wrote: So to recap, we get one Spyder for the formation, have permission to buy more Spyders from the Spyder entry permissions, have no restrictions, but only one Spyder model is in the formation and may benefit from its rules?
Sounds about right. It's good that you are keeping track of what the rules are actually saying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 09:30:22
