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Wow. This thread is amazing. To the OP, why did you even seek advice on this? You were dead set on running the formation with three Spyders before you even wrote your initial post. You seem absolutely convinced your interpretation is correct, so I would recommend trying to run it this way in a tournament and seeing if you can find a tournament organizer to agree with you. If so, more power to you.

 CrownAxe wrote:

You keep ignoring the important fact which is buy those extra models prevents you from meeting the formations requirements. That is the difference

- A formation requires you take a unit of tactical marines. You give that unit a rhino as a transport. The formation still has a unit of tactical marines
- A formation requires you take a spyder. You take a unit of 3 spyders. The formation doesn't have a spyder like it requierd.

That is the issue here.

And this issue is where we disagree. So you buy an apple, then I give you two more, and a clerk (formation) asks "Do you have an apple?" You are saying the answer is no?

To use your vocabulary; if I take a harvest, it lists three requirements, not limitations. A spyder, a unit of wraiths, and a unit of scarabs. I take these three, and I have met those requirements. In addition to those requirements, I purchase two more Spyders. I still have my requirement. If you disagree refer to the apple question again.

I can have multiple of a thing, and still answer yes to "do you have a thing?" truthfully. Because as you said it is a requirement not a limitation. Just like "a unit of necron warriors" is a requirement, allowing you to purchase DTs. If formations were a limitation then you could not take DTs unless allowed.

Threads like this are the reason I come to ymdc. Not to find out legitimate rules queries, but to watch delicious train wrecks.

Hats off to the fabulous guys trying so hard to rewrite math so that 1 may equal 2 or 3. You are officially more entertaining than netflix.

culsandar wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

You keep ignoring the important fact which is buy those extra models prevents you from meeting the formations requirements. That is the difference

- A formation requires you take a unit of tactical marines. You give that unit a rhino as a transport. The formation still has a unit of tactical marines
- A formation requires you take a spyder. You take a unit of 3 spyders. The formation doesn't have a spyder like it requierd.

That is the issue here.

And this issue is where we disagree. So you buy an apple, then I give you two more, and a clerk (formation) asks "Do you have an apple?" You are saying the answer is no?

To use your vocabulary; if I take a harvest, it lists three requirements, not limitations. A spyder, a unit of wraiths, and a unit of scarabs. I take these three, and I have met those requirements. In addition to those requirements, I purchase two more Spyders. I still have my requirement. If you disagree refer to the apple question again.

I can have multiple of a thing, and still answer yes to "do you have a thing?" truthfully. Because as you said it is a requirement not a limitation. Just like "a unit of necron warriors" is a requirement, allowing you to purchase DTs. If formations were a limitation then you could not take DTs unless allowed.

To your apple query the answer is no because you don't have an apple, you have 3 apples. Simply saying "an apple" when you have multiple is inaccurate which is why it's wrong.

culsandar wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

You keep ignoring the important fact which is buy those extra models prevents you from meeting the formations requirements. That is the difference

- A formation requires you take a unit of tactical marines. You give that unit a rhino as a transport. The formation still has a unit of tactical marines
- A formation requires you take a spyder. You take a unit of 3 spyders. The formation doesn't have a spyder like it requierd.

That is the issue here.

And this issue is where we disagree. So you buy an apple, then I give you two more, and a clerk (formation) asks "Do you have an apple?" You are saying the answer is no?

To use your vocabulary; if I take a harvest, it lists three requirements, not limitations. A spyder, a unit of wraiths, and a unit of scarabs. I take these three, and I have met those requirements. In addition to those requirements, I purchase two more Spyders. I still have my requirement. If you disagree refer to the apple question again.

I can have multiple of a thing, and still answer yes to "do you have a thing?" truthfully. Because as you said it is a requirement not a limitation. Just like "a unit of necron warriors" is a requirement, allowing you to purchase DTs. If formations were a limitation then you could not take DTs unless allowed.

If my budget is £1000 and I spend £3000, have I spent £1000? Yes, but I've also disregarded the budget.
If my allowance is one Spyder and I take 3, have I taken 1 Spyder? Yes, but I've disregarded the allowance of 1 Spyder.

col_impact, either you're arguing that the Spyders aren't in the formation (hence don't benefit from the formation, whilst also breaking the restriction on all formations that one unit must belong to a single formation, not split into several) or youre arguing that 1 Spyder implicitly implies a unit just because it points to the profile on page 83. In that situation, the latter part is an unfounded assumption and goes contrary to every other possible single model unit in the book. Neither is RAW and neither function with the formation rules, requiring more assumptions to decide which Spyder eminates the effect. In no situation have you demonstrated anything resembling factual or coherent reading of the formation. It says 1. Chances are it means 1.

col_impact wrote:
I have 1 canoptek spyder in the Canoptek Harver formation.

There are 'no restrictions' in the formation.

The formation explicitly points out to use page 93.

I add two additional spyders to the unit because its clearly allowable on the options on page93.

Once I do that . . .

I am still satisfying the 1 canoptek spyder for the formation. The two additional spyders are not part of the formation.


Feel free to point to an exact rule that I am breaking. The counter-argument has jumped to the conclusion (one not founded in rules) that once I add a spyder to the unit I am unable to fulfill the 1 canoptek spyder requirement.

Point out in THE RULES where I am unable to fulfill that requirement.

The counter-argument has a serious problem grounding what it says in any rule.

Moreover, the counter-argument struggles with the fact that the Formation says 'no restriction' when they want to say that the Formation is actually saying 'you may not buy additional spyders'

Why is the counter argument adding restrictions where the Formation itself clearly indicates 'no restriction'?

Your contention is that you are purchasing a unit of 3 Spyders and then taking one of those Spyders to fulfill the Formation requirement? What are you doing with the other two Spyders?

From the BRB, Detachments section - "However, all the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment."

So, if you purchase a unit of 3 Spyders, it must belong to a Detachment. The Canoptek Harvest is a Detachment (in that it is a Formation). Unfortunately, I can't choose a unit of 3 Spyders for a Canoptek Harvest as the Canoptek Harvest clearly lists One Spyder and not One Unit of Spyders.

I also can't select a unit of 3 Spyders and say one is going into the Canoptek Harvest while I put the other two somewhere else. Each Unit must be part of a Detachment and no Unit can be part of more than one Detachment (Decurion exemption being ignored as it isn't relevent in this case). If I say the one Spyder is in a Canoptek Harvest, and the other two are somewhere else, I've violated this rule.

Face it, dude. You can't split Units like this. One means one. RaI, Raw and general consensus HYWPI are seeming to align in this case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, this is a permissive ruleset. You have permission to take ONE Spyder in the Formation. You DON'T have permission to take a UNIT of Spyders. The option to add two Spyders is a UNIT option and not a MODEL option. Ergo, your ONE Spyder has ZERO permission to take two more Spyders as options. Your Spyder could take a Gloom Prism, etc... but not extra Spyders.

Eyjio wrote:

culsandar wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

You keep ignoring the important fact which is buy those extra models prevents you from meeting the formations requirements. That is the difference

- A formation requires you take a unit of tactical marines. You give that unit a rhino as a transport. The formation still has a unit of tactical marines
- A formation requires you take a spyder. You take a unit of 3 spyders. The formation doesn't have a spyder like it requierd.

That is the issue here.

And this issue is where we disagree. So you buy an apple, then I give you two more, and a clerk (formation) asks "Do you have an apple?" You are saying the answer is no?

To use your vocabulary; if I take a harvest, it lists three requirements, not limitations. A spyder, a unit of wraiths, and a unit of scarabs. I take these three, and I have met those requirements. In addition to those requirements, I purchase two more Spyders. I still have my requirement. If you disagree refer to the apple question again.

I can have multiple of a thing, and still answer yes to "do you have a thing?" truthfully. Because as you said it is a requirement not a limitation. Just like "a unit of necron warriors" is a requirement, allowing you to purchase DTs. If formations were a limitation then you could not take DTs unless allowed.

If my budget is £1000 and I spend £3000, have I spent £1000? Yes, but I've also disregarded the budget.
If my allowance is one Spyder and I take 3, have I taken 1 Spyder? Yes, but I've disregarded the allowance of 1 Spyder.

But there isn't an allowance. Both it and a budget are a limitation, which we have already established a formation not to be.

To correct your example; you are required to spend £10000. You spend £30000. Did you spend £10000?

There is no budget because there is no limitation, within the term of the unit entries listed in the formation.

Some of you guys are treating the Unit List in a Formation a a minimum and not an exact requirement.

So, if I take a Canoptek Harvest with a unit of Wraiths, a unit of Scarabs, a Spyder and 17 Annihilation Barges, have I fulfilled the requirements? Per your logic, I can say yes to each required component, so surely I have? Awesome.

But, I have no more permission to take an Annihilation Barge in a Canoptek Harvest than I do to take multiple Spyders.

I'd love to have 3 in the Formation, but the rules just don't support it. One means one. One doesn't mean One + More just like One doesn't mean One + an Annihilation Barge.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit that were bought by a formation that has no restrictions and that gives clear access to that option on the army entry list it directly references.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

You have a unit that is part of 2 detachments - the Formation, and another detachment for the other two spyders.
Cite permission to do this.

In addition, you purchase units first, then organize them into Detachments.

Purchasing a 3 spyder unit and then attempting to put part of the unit into a Formation has no rules support.

Models are not members of a detachment - units are. You have no clear chain of permission - you're (again) making things up.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit that were bought by a formation that has no restrictions and that gives clear access to that option on the army entry list it directly references.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

You have a unit that is part of 2 detachments - the Formation, and another detachment for the other two spyders.
Cite permission to do this.

In addition, you purchase units first, then organize them into Detachments.

Spoiler:

Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment.

Purchasing a 3 spyder unit and then attempting to put part of the unit into a Formation has no rules support.

Models are not members of a detachment - units are. You have no clear chain of permission - you're (again) making things up.

As the neutral train wreck watcher, I'd say this man just scored a point. If you buy a 3 spyder unit, and then organize into canoptek harvest, you quite obviously violate the terms of the formation.

 Kriswall wrote:
Some of you guys are treating the Unit List in a Formation a a minimum and not an exact requirement.

So, if I take a Canoptek Harvest with a unit of Wraiths, a unit of Scarabs, a Spyder and 17 Annihilation Barges, have I fulfilled the requirements? Per your logic, I can say yes to each required component, so surely I have? Awesome.

But, I have no more permission to take an Annihilation Barge in a Canoptek Harvest than I do to take multiple Spyders.

I'd love to have 3 in the Formation, but the rules just don't support it. One means one. One doesn't mean One + More just like One doesn't mean One + an Annihilation Barge.

I was waiting on this absurd strawman to show up. That's why my last line was what it was. I'm specifically discussing, and referring to, the lack of a formation's restrictions on unit entries and their upgrades, not wildly adding new units to a formation.

Look, I'm on your guys side. I think it should only be one too. But it cannot be for the reason you are touting. If you arbitrarily decide that formations limit unit entries, then they must limit all unit entries equally, I.e.;

If it includes one Spyder, you cannot take more Spyders by purchasing them in it's unit entry, because it specifies "1 spyder."
If it includes a unit of space marines, you cannot take a rhino for them by purchasing it in their unit entry, because it specifies "1 unit of space marines."

You need another reason to limit spyders other than the above, because that has huge repercussions affecting unrelated formations. Unfortunately at this point GW faq fiat may be the only way


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit that were bought by a formation that has no restrictions and that gives clear access to that option on the army entry list it directly references.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

You have a unit that is part of 2 detachments - the Formation, and another detachment for the other two spyders.
Cite permission to do this.

In addition, you purchase units first, then organize them into Detachments.

Spoiler:

Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment.

Purchasing a 3 spyder unit and then attempting to put part of the unit into a Formation has no rules support.

Models are not members of a detachment - units are. You have no clear chain of permission - you're (again) making things up.

As the neutral train wreck watcher, I'd say this man just scored a point. If you buy a 3 spyder unit, and then organize into canoptek harvest, you quite obviously violate the terms of the formation.

This is a much stronger case. You buy the units first then fit them into the formation.

The core argument of "The Formation has no permission to take a Unit of Spyders" appears to be falling on deaf ears.

RaW is crystal clear (one means one) and there has yet to be ANY rules citation showing that the Canoptek Harvest has permission to take a UNIT of Spyders OR that a player has permission to split a Unit of Spyders with one going to the Formation and two others to some other Detachment.

I would recommend a Mod lock this thread. Work out with your gaming group how to play this. Don't expect more than one Spyder with strangers or tournaments.

Other people have already mentioned this elsewhere, but compare this to two other formations with units that begin at 1 and can add additional models.

In The Triarch Formation iirc it specifies 1 Unit of Triarch Stalkers, rather than "1 Triarch Stalker." If we do not interpret the difference between these specifications as a typo, it implies that 1 Spyder means only one, not 1-3.

In the same manner, the Dark Artisan Formation from the Haemonculus Supplement specifies 1 Talos, when additional Talos can be added to a regular purchased unit. If "1 Spyder" in fact refers to a unit of 1-3 Spyders, rather than 1 Spyder, then the Dark Artisan Formation gets significantly more powerful as well, because I could take 3 Talos, 1 Cronos, and 1 Haemonculus. I don't know of anyone who plays the formation this way, and the picture provided shows a single Talos, but this is the inevitable consequence of finding that "1 Spyder" = "1 Unit of Spyders"

Yonasu wrote:
Wonderful read this, someone obviously has had an argument at their flgs and now needs to find support at dakka to win the next fight

It clearly says "a spyder","the spyder" and so on, this thread should have stopped at that. It is what is written and what is intended, any tries to add more spyders break that formation entry. There is no need for any rules saying that "A Canoptek Spyder" is "A Canoptek Spyder" because it is what it is. I would be more inclined to find other formations with this wording that should also be treated like this. It is an unlucky use of words for a necron player, giving hope where there is none, but it is un-ambigious right from the start.

Unless there's a faq stating otherwise, the formation entry is what it is and in this game we follow organization charts and detachment rules because they are rules and not just guidelines. Continuing to state that "Show me the rules" is redundant since the formation is a rule.

Next time they might write "A canoptek spyder unit" and then we can use that.

I already put forth the excample in the tactics thread using Dark Artisan.

By his twisted logic I can field 1 heamonculuc, 1-3 Taloi and 1-3 Cronos....

 Frozocrone wrote:
Slight difference in your second example (bolded to highlight), although a unit of Canoptek Spyders can purchase more models, the formation specifically states '1 Canoptek Spyder'. Since at no point does it refer to the Canoptek Spyder as 'a unit of Canoptek Spyders' (unlike the Triarch formation, which refers to the singular Triarch Stalker as 'a unit of Triarch stalkers') I'm inclined to believe that you may only have 1 Canoptek Spyder in the formation.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You keep ignoring the important fact which is buy those extra models prevents you from meeting the formations requirements. That is the difference

- A formation requires you take a unit of tactical marines. You give that unit a rhino as a transport. The formation still has a unit of tactical marines
- A formation requires you take a spyder. You take a unit of 3 spyders. The formation doesn't have a spyder like it requierd.

That is the issue here.

Eyjio wrote:
And if it said one unit of Spyders, this would be equivalent. The more comparable situation would be if it's said something like 5 Tactical Marines rather than 1 unit of tac marines. In that case, I would argue the same case I'm making here and say dedicated transports wouldn't be allowed for those 5 guys. At the end of the day, it says one Spyder. You can say whatever you want, but 2 Spyders is clearly not 1 Spyder.

So a Formation that says "1 Tac Squad" could purchase a Rhino but a Formation that says "5 Tactical Marines" could not? Are they 5 different Units? or still a Unit of 'Tactical Marines'?
Why would one Unit be allowed a DT and not the other?

In respons to all of the above, i'm going to hijack Kriswall's posts to answer:

 Kriswall wrote:
From the BRB, Detachments section - "However, all the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment."

 Kriswall wrote:
Some of you guys are treating the Unit List in a Formation a a minimum and not an exact requirement.

So, if I take a Canoptek Harvest with a unit of Wraiths, a unit of Scarabs, a Spyder and 17 Annihilation Barges, have I fulfilled the requirements? Per your logic, I can say yes to each required component, so surely I have? Awesome.

But, I have no more permission to take an Annihilation Barge in a Canoptek Harvest than I do to take multiple Spyders.

I'd love to have 3 in the Formation, but the rules just don't support it. One means one. One doesn't mean One + More just like One doesn't mean One + an Annihilation Barge.

Now:
A) I completely agree with everything stated by Krisswall:
I have no more permission to take 17 Annihilation Barge in a Canoptek Harvest than I do to take multiple Spyders.
I have no more permission to take a Night Scythe in a Canoptek Harvest than I do to take multiple Spyders.

But suddenly, everyone tells me that Dedicated transports CAN be taken for Units with the option to do so.....?
So a formation, that is listed as:
1 Spyder
0-1 Units of Scarabs
0-1 Units of Wraiths

Can become:
1 Spyder
0-1 Units of Scarabs
0-1 Units of Wraiths
1 Night Scythe

Because the Unit of Wraiths just happens to have an option to take a DT? (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631346.page)
But the Unit of Spyder, that just happen to have an option to take +2 spyders, cannot make a formation:
1 Spyder
0-1 Units of Scarabs
0-1 Units of Wraiths

Can become:
1 Unit of 3 Spyders
0-1 Units of Scarabs
0-1 Units of Wraiths

I really struggle to see how the first is allowed but not the second, considering all of the rules that Krisswall has listed.

B) Dedicated Transports taken for certain Formations must follow the "all the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.".
So what Detachment are these Night Scythes part of?
Surely the Formation of the Unit purchasing it. So you can modify the list of a Formation with the DT Option, but not with the option of taking more models?
Taking a DT for a Unit is not taking more models? Or is there another reason?

culsandar wrote:
If it includes one Spyder, you cannot take more Spyders by purchasing them in it's unit entry, because it specifies "1 spyder."
If it includes a unit of space marines, you cannot take a rhino for them by purchasing it in their unit entry, because it specifies "1 unit of space marines."

There is nothing to stop the unit of SM taking options, including a Dedicated Transport if they so wish. If they couldn't, then in the restrictions section state that 'Dedicated Transports may not be taken (case in point being the Greentide formation). You will still satisfy the requirements of the formation, since you have 'a unit of SM' within the formation.

Likewise, there is nothing to stop a Spyder from purchasing options. However, the Canoptek Harvest formation specifies one Spyder. Not a unit of Spyders, one Spyder. With this, there is no text needed in the restrictions box, since you have permission to take a single Spyder, but not a unit of Spyders. If you add a Spyder, you will have two Spyders, which the formation (on account of saying '1 Spyder') does not allow.

Black Talos I believe this addresses your post as well, I've only just read it.

 Thariinye wrote:
Other people have already mentioned this elsewhere, but compare this to two other formations with units that begin at 1 and can add additional models.

In The Triarch Formation iirc it specifies 1 Unit of Triarch Stalkers, rather than "1 Triarch Stalker." If we do not interpret the difference between these specifications as a typo, it implies that 1 Spyder means only one, not 1-3.

In the same manner, the Dark Artisan Formation from the Haemonculus Supplement specifies 1 Talos, when additional Talos can be added to a regular purchased unit. If "1 Spyder" in fact refers to a unit of 1-3 Spyders, rather than 1 Spyder, then the Dark Artisan Formation gets significantly more powerful as well, because I could take 3 Talos, 1 Cronos, and 1 Haemonculus. I don't know of anyone who plays the formation this way, and the picture provided shows a single Talos, but this is the inevitable consequence of finding that "1 Spyder" = "1 Unit of Spyders"

 Red Corsair wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
Wonderful read this, someone obviously has had an argument at their flgs and now needs to find support at dakka to win the next fight

It clearly says "a spyder","the spyder" and so on, this thread should have stopped at that. It is what is written and what is intended, any tries to add more spyders break that formation entry. There is no need for any rules saying that "A Canoptek Spyder" is "A Canoptek Spyder" because it is what it is. I would be more inclined to find other formations with this wording that should also be treated like this. It is an unlucky use of words for a necron player, giving hope where there is none, but it is un-ambigious right from the start.

Unless there's a faq stating otherwise, the formation entry is what it is and in this game we follow organization charts and detachment rules because they are rules and not just guidelines. Continuing to state that "Show me the rules" is redundant since the formation is a rule.

Next time they might write "A canoptek spyder unit" and then we can use that.

I already put forth the excample in the tactics thread using Dark Artisan.

By his twisted logic I can field 1 heamonculuc, 1-3 Taloi and 1-3 Cronos....

If you could both explain how a Night Scythe can be added to a Formation of "Reclamation Legion"? (Because there are many arguing with precedence that this is indeed possible)
Once you've explained how that works, use the same explanation on the Unit of Spyders.

sweetbacon wrote:
Wow. This thread is amazing. To the OP, why did you even seek advice on this? You were dead set on running the formation with three Spyders before you even wrote your initial post. You seem absolutely convinced your interpretation is correct, so I would recommend trying to run it this way in a tournament and seeing if you can find a tournament organizer to agree with you. If so, more power to you.

If your bored do a search on threads he's started in YMDC. Heck he even pulled this crap on Warseer for a week.

My advice is put him on ignore. He doesn't make linear arguments he just goes in circles until he is the last person debating. Filibusterers don't make an argument correct though.

There is also this a bit further back in the codex. Any RaI from it, or are we throwing it into the "Fluff" pile?

culsandar wrote:
I was waiting on this absurd strawman to show up. That's why my last line was what it was. I'm specifically discussing, and referring to, the lack of a formation's restrictions on unit entries and their upgrades, not wildly adding new units to a formation.

Look, I'm on your guys side. I think it should only be one too. But it cannot be for the reason you are touting. If you arbitrarily decide that formations limit unit entries, then they must limit all unit entries equally, I.e.;

If it includes one Spyder, you cannot take more Spyders by purchasing them in it's unit entry, because it specifies "1 spyder."
If it includes a unit of space marines, you cannot take a rhino for them by purchasing it in their unit entry, because it specifies "1 unit of space marines."

You need another reason to limit spyders other than the above, because that has huge repercussions affecting unrelated formations. Unfortunately at this point GW faq fiat may be the only way

If you are truly on our side, then please try to understand: the formation restrictions are listed in the formation.

If the formation says "1 unit of space marines" and does not provide any restrictions on upgrades (such as no transports) then you can take upgrades. But if the formation says "1 space marine", then you can not take any additional space marines (although other upgrades on that 1 marine may still be an option - such as dedicated transports).

There are other examples of formations that say 1 of X. In those formations you are not allowed to take more than 1 either.

There are also formations that say take 5-10 of X. Likewise in those formations you cannot take more than 10 or less than 5 even if the unit description said 3-12.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you could both explain how a Night Scythe can be added to a Formation of "Reclamation Legion"? (Because there are many arguing with precedence that this is indeed possible)
Once you've explained how that works, use the same explanation on the Unit of Spyders.

Dedicated Transports do not use Force Organization Slots.

This explanation cannot be used for extra Spyders.

 Red Corsair wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:
Wow. This thread is amazing. To the OP, why did you even seek advice on this? You were dead set on running the formation with three Spyders before you even wrote your initial post. You seem absolutely convinced your interpretation is correct, so I would recommend trying to run it this way in a tournament and seeing if you can find a tournament organizer to agree with you. If so, more power to you.

If your bored do a search on threads he's started in YMDC. Heck he even pulled this crap on Warseer for a week.

My advice is put him on ignore. He doesn't make linear arguments he just goes in circles until he is the last person debating. Filibusterers don't make an argument correct though.

THIS. I did this a long time ago and my life on YMDC has been much less stressful ever since. Laughed so hard when I read the part about filibusters not making an argument correct.

Still chuckling about it.

Wow, that's a lot of pages while the answer is so simple:

I quote: "Restrictions: None."
And the Spyder-entry has a line saying it may buy two additional models.
So surely you can take 1-3 Spyders.

Kangodo wrote:
Wow, that's a lot of pages while the answer is so simple:

I quote: "Restrictions: None."
And the Spyder-entry has a line saying it may buy two additional models.
So surely you can take 1-3 Spyders.

And this answer is incorrect - which you'd know if you'd made the effort to read "a lot of pages" instead of assuming that everyone else is dumb enough to miss something that simple.

You're better than that.

Kangodo wrote:
Wow, that's a lot of pages while the answer is so simple:

I quote: "Restrictions: None."
And the Spyder-entry has a line saying it may buy two additional models.
So surely you can take 1-3 Spyders.

Pretty much this, yes.

Going by general GW trends, I assumed this would be the case from the moment I first saw the formation description in the preview. Then a few people who got the book started "confirming" the formation page said only one Spyder. I ask what the formation restrictions box says... And it says none.

All the clarification that was needed. But hey, if that wasn't enough, the poster of a full Decurion that comes with the special edition has a full unit. Not only do we have entirely clear wording, we have a demonstration of it in action. Two if you count the studio army in the preview.

This really shouldn't have needed to be a discussion in the first place.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you could both explain how a Night Scythe can be added to a Formation of "Reclamation Legion"? (Because there are many arguing with precedence that this is indeed possible)
Once you've explained how that works, use the same explanation on the Unit of Spyders.

Spoiler:

Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots
Occasionally a unit’s Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organisation Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits.

Dedicated Transports do not use Force Organization Slots.

This explanation cannot be used for extra Spyders.

Not using FOC slots is not in contention. Belonging to a certain formation is (Highlighted in the rules you've posted).

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you could both explain how a Night Scythe can be added to a Formation of "Reclamation Legion"? (Because there are many arguing with precedence that this is indeed possible)
Once you've explained how that works, use the same explanation on the Unit of Spyders.

Spoiler:

Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots
Occasionally a unit’s Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organisation Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role, but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits.

Dedicated Transports do not use Force Organization Slots.

This explanation cannot be used for extra Spyders.

Not using FOC slots is not in contention. Belonging to a certain formation is (Highlighted in the rules you've posted).

So you just missed "These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate Battlefield Role are filled with other units or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role"
Is a formation a Detachment? Yes, indisputably.
Can a DT join any Detachment, even if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role? Yes, indisputably.

So yes, the fact that they don't use FO slots is exactly the point, because that's what allows them to use that rule.

changemod wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Wow, that's a lot of pages while the answer is so simple:

I quote: "Restrictions: None."
And the Spyder-entry has a line saying it may buy two additional models.
So surely you can take 1-3 Spyders.

Pretty much this, yes.

Going by general GW trends, I assumed this would be the case from the moment I first saw the formation description in the preview. Then a few people who got the book started "confirming" the formation page said only one Spyder. I ask what the formation restrictions box says... And it says none.

All the clarification that was needed. But hey, if that wasn't enough, the poster of a full Decurion that comes with the special edition has a full unit. Not only do we have entirely clear wording, we have a demonstration of it in action. Two if you count the studio army in the preview.

This really shouldn't have needed to be a discussion in the first place.

The problem with that is the the Destroyer Cult shows that you can take three units of Destroyers and a Destroyer Lord, but you can't take Heavy Destroyers, whereas in the formation rules it says you can take 0-1 units. In the Reclamation formation, it says you can take 0-3 Monoliths and in the poster, 3 monoliths are clearly shown.

In addition to that, the Canoptek Harvest formation as shown in the poster has 44 Scarabs. Even if you put four Scarabs on each base (as pictures show), you can only have 36 Scarabs max, since you can have up to 9 Scarab bases in a unit.

Poster =/= written rules.

So question.

I take a Canoptek Harvest. I include 6 Wraiths, 9 Scarabs, and 3 Spyders.

Do I meet the following:
1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths
1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs
1 Canoptek Spyder

Yes.
The Wraiths can have additional options, because that is allowed, just like the Spyders.