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So, to summarize this entire thread, "Suck it, Xenos! You deserve it for Eldar having the OP serpent!"?

morgoth wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.

Run the mathhammer, then come back.
Your opinion is not very interesting to read if you didn't even go through the necessary research before forming it.

Sighduck.

Single WS: MEQ > 4 scatter and on average 4 SS, Scatter will hit 3.5 times each with TL, Same with SS, Causing about 6 total wounds. 2dead marines or 1 dead terminator a turn at 36" range plus. not including the guys inside, not including the shuriken

Drop pod Anti tank, you need a minimum of 6 glances or pens to get through 4+ jink, even better with holo. with only a 1/6 chance to fail pen reduction.

You are also now in Dakka range of all da sudo rending guns even if you jink your WS

Its obviously not ideal.

Ironically Vaktati just did the maths for him... rather extensively.

Bharring wrote:
So, to summarize this entire thread, "Suck it, Xenos! You deserve it for Eldar having the OP serpent!"?

I wouldn't say that. I'd say it's more "It *is* powerful, but cost's a lot, here's how it stacks up relative to a much cheaper and broadly similarly powerful Wave Serpent".

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ironically Vaktati just did the maths for him... rather extensively.

morgoth wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?

I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.

That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.

One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.

The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.

So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?

Are you proposing Wave Serpents are better main-battle tanks than Sicarans or are you just trying to stir the pot?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?

Are you proposing Wave Serpents are better main-battle tanks than Sicarans or are you just trying to stir the pot?

The Wave Serpent is too good at being a MBT for its price. And what Morgoth has been saying is that the WS isn't that good against a bunch of things (even though it is pretty good against them) and Mozzyfuzzy was just saying why should it be, when it's meant to be a transport anyway, not a MBT.

Summarizing the thread, it's easy to read that generally there is a concencus that the Sicaran is strong. It is good against most targets, reasonably survivable and vs some targets (those that Jink and have AV<=12) it is very strong. It also however costs points to reflect this meaning it's not perceived as OP or broken. Specially since in real life people always take at least sponsons on it so its base cost is theoretical. You will not be considered a d-bag for fielding one.

Moving on, then there are several pages more discussion (or monologue..) on the Wave Serpent, which is still perceived as Overpowered/undercosted/broken by everyone in this thread except one person. Who also used the word "garbage" to describe it, and claims its power is/was "situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.".

And the general comparison between the WS and the Sicaran in this thread is still comparing apples and pears by only looking at point for point survivability/killability, and not even taking into account that the WS also is more mobile, fulfilling a transport role quite well, does not take up a FOC slot and can get Objective Secured. One is also spammable while the other one really is not (not counting Unbound). So the comparison is not particularly relevant.

Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion.

My own personal reflection - I play both Eldar and CSM and would not field a Wave Serpent at all as people get a funny look in their faces and start mumbling about it, which is no fun for either side. I play Falcons instead. I however have no issue fielding a Sicaran.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?

Are you proposing Wave Serpents are better main-battle tanks than Sicarans or are you just trying to stir the pot?

The Wave Serpent is too good at being a MBT for its price. And what Morgoth has been saying is that the WS isn't that good against a bunch of things (even though it is pretty good against them) and Mozzyfuzzy was just saying why should it be, when it's meant to be a transport anyway, not a MBT.

Pretty much this, the general feel from what I got, is that Morgoth isn't happy with either the firepower or the durablilty of the WS for a 130pt +tax investment, in comparison to as I recall "IG's 14-13-11, SM's 14-14-14 or 13-12-11" Which other than the land raider, are all MBTs so the conclusion I drew from Morgoths argument was that the WS needed to be better at the job of MBT.

Wave serpent is better as a battle tank than a Leman Russ battle tank. They should be swapped names not to confuse people. Wave Battle Tank and Russ Serpent.

There is nothing wrong with the Sicarian and anyone who thinks it's overpowered clearly either has nothing in the army to deal with vehicles or is a good old fashioned FW hater. Forgeworld overall makes more balanced units and over costed units then GW books and have played against and fielded 2 and both times were proved not invincible.

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Drasius wrote:
Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?

Forge World units aren't universally overpowered so I don't get your 'what do you expect from FW' comment.

No, they aren't. Just the ones people ACTUALLY buy and use. Because they are looking for strictly better versions of things. Using things like forgeworld death korps of krieg to represent guard is fine. Crap like this is why people are switching games left and right. That and GW's insane policies lately.

I realize I'm a little late to the party in this thread, but are are the Death Korps considered broken now? o.O

I can see how some armies / lists could have trouble with them (particularly blob orks), but I've never heard of them being a power-player in any big lists by any means.

They're not overpowered just another typical FW hater who probably never changes his list or tactics and gets mad when he has to fight something he's never played against.

Sicaran is very good, but so are Typhon siege tank, fire raptor and centurions with grav cannons. Other factions have their owns super units.

The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.

Because siciran really helps me when I face 3 knight formation with invisibility, 5 knights, 3 wraithlords+ 5 talos etc. yea. It's auto win button,LOL
While it's a nice tank, it's completely useless when people start to bring other nasty stuff to the table. If everyone was making nice fluffy lists, then it would be good tank, as it is in tournament meta, he's useless like the rest of marine vehichles, because you simply can't compete with knight,monstrous creatures etc. who can simply 1 shot you, or enter a combat and again, 1 shot you,lol

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ceramtic plating should be removed from the game!

Eldar should be removed from the game.. first the dwarves, then the elves.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ceramtic plating should be removed from the game!

Eldar should be removed from the game.. first the dwarves, then the elves.

And then the Space Marines!

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.

Can you quote this rule please?

 Lobukia wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.

Can you quote this rule please?

I mean... It's the one Special Rule it has. Relics of the Armoury. One may be chosen normally but more than one means a 'Keeper of the Relics' HQ must be chosen.

 Lobukia wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.

Can you quote this rule please?

Relics of the Armoury special rule

The relevant part being

However, if more than one model with this rule is taken in the Primary Detachment, it must also include a Keeper of Relics purchased as an HQ choice.

The Keeper of Relics being a Master of the Forge for C:SM, Interrogator-Chaplain for DA, and are technically impossible for BA and SW to have as they refer to models that no longer exist or can no longer meet the requirements to be a Keeper of Relics (Reclusiarch and Rune Priest with Saga of the Beast Slayer).

You need a Keeper of the Relics to use anything with Relics of the Armoury in a secondary detachment at all. (not just more than 1)

It's in IA13 (and presumably the loyalist equivalent) - pg 191.

Only one "Relic" can only be fielded in single in a primary detachment, unless you have the respective Technomancer HQ (Abaddon, a Warpsmith or a Malefic Daemonolgy sorcerer for Chaos, don't have the other book.)

If you field a relic as an ally, then the compulsory HQ for an allied detachment must be a Technomancer.

This covers most of the juicy units, including some Land Raiders, the Sicaran, several of the fliers etc..



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, devilfish and I synced up nicely!

Got it, but in IA13 it limits you to only one upgrade like thing per unit, right?

But in the SM one you are limited to the one Relic, but not to only one battle honor (or whatever its called) on that Relic.

Is that correct? We share books in our club and I don't have this one in hand at the moment. I'm just checking to see if there is the difference that I remember there being.

One vehicle per full 1,000 pts can take one or more Legacy but only one of each Legacy can be chosen.

Actually, its 13/12/12 and you do know you can only take 1? I think it's mainly used to counteract wave serpent spamming (which honestly is a much bigger dick move). I use one of these for my Blood Angels and I think the highlight of it was when I played it against my friend's CSM. At the time, he was running a defiler and 2 forgefiends. You should have seen the look on his face when he found out that with schism of Mars, I was BS5 against his daemon engines along with having tank hunter. However, this thing is pretty weak to Khorne terminators with power fists (as I later found out )