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the DE codex gets fun when played with Harlequins, but I couldn't find myself playing purely DE. I picked up some wych units as that was going to be my allied detachment to my Iyanden. Then they got a big nerf but I'll still find a way to get them in the list, reaver bikes are excellent.
As far as a taxi service, it's a mutual exchange program. The Harlequin Starweaver has one extra passenger slot over the venom so it allows for a character to come along. My plan is for 5 warriors to ride in the starweavers from the masque detachment alongside a Jester. That's a fair amount of firepower from such a small, relatively cheap unit (I know, don't go comparing to eldar scatter bikes). Can always drop off the troops on an objective or have the Jester do a flyby haywire grenade attack.
Harlequins in raiders is nice to get that large number of bodies down range without relying in Veil of Tears. The harlequins gives the DE the close combat capabilities that they lack, and it's not really too much of a deviation from the norm as they used to be in the codex by themselves. Granted, the restrictions to the harlequin formations is rough but one could always just add a cast of Players to go in a Raider and then the Heroes Path for a few more characters.

I also own some hellions......and it sucks that they will probably stay on the shelf, great models.

At some point i will look at the coven book, but not for awhile.

Covens book is great, but biggest issue is it will be nearly impossible to beat a GK army, if you play solo covens.

Recently tabled Eldar and decurion necrons with this 1 source list:

Here's a list:

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Troops:

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

Fast attack:

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Heavy support

Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance



Real space raiders detach, 1850, BAM! You're welcome gents.

Maybe they will be putting out something along the lines of what they did for the Tyranids, to rework and sculpt models that were not made before after what happened with Chapter House.

One can hope at least.

I was just thinking today how happy I would've been back in October if they had just updated the artwork on the 5th edition codex, slapped a hardback cover on it, updated the Grotesques, Talos, Scourge, and Reaver rules, and called it our new 7th edition codex. While also giving us the Covens supplement at the same time. Basically giving us a small taste of the love that the Eldar got.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Recently tabled Eldar and decurion necrons with this 1 source list:

Here's a list:

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Troops:

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

Fast attack:

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Heavy support

Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance



Real space raiders detach, 1850, BAM! You're welcome gents.

Are you sure you have enough Razorwings?

 vipoid wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Recently tabled Eldar and decurion necrons with this 1 source list:

Here's a list:

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Troops:

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

Fast attack:

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Heavy support

Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance



Real space raiders detach, 1850, BAM! You're welcome gents.

Are you sure you have enough Razorwings?

You can never have enough Razorwings!

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Recently tabled Eldar and decurion necrons with this 1 source list:

Here's a list:

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Lhamean, venom dual cannon

Troops:

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

10 warriors, raider, night shields, splinter racks, lance

Fast attack:

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Razorwing jet, lances, splinter cannon, monoscythe

Heavy support

Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance
Ravager triple lance



Real space raiders detach, 1850, BAM! You're welcome gents.

What were in the decurion and eldar lists?

So I read a comment yesterday about how one of the GW design team members allegedly stated that each design team working on a new codex does so in complete secrecy and isolation from other design teams working on other codexes, I don't know if this is true or not, but it would go a long towards explaining why the DE codex released in October 2014 was already obsolete in terms of power level by January 2015 when the Decurion free formation buffs for everyone(!) style of codexes started coming out. Having seen the Necron and Eldar books, and then reading rumors about the insane USRs and buffs the new Cult Mechanicus book, I can absolutely believe that the teams who wrote those books were unaware of what was in the DE 7th edition codex as there is an absurdly large gap in power level between each.

I just want duke back, and decent war gear

Maybe this is is just nostalgia-tinged optimism, but I think DE would be borderline top tier if they'd just left our old codex in tact and given us the Covens supplement as well. Beast Pack AND Corpsethief Claw/Grotesquerie AND HWG Wyches? Yes, please.

*sighs*

**sobs while downing an entire bottle of whiskey**

sweetbacon wrote:
Maybe this is is just nostalgia-tinged optimism, but I think DE would be borderline top tier if they'd just left our old codex in tact and given us the Covens supplement as well. Beast Pack AND Corpsethief Claw/Grotesquerie AND HWG Wyches? Yes, please.

*sighs*

**sobs while downing an entire bottle of whiskey**

Nope. I'd do pretty well with the old codex. Freakshows would be harder, but the dex would be better.

 Jimsolo wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:
Maybe this is is just nostalgia-tinged optimism, but I think DE would be borderline top tier if they'd just left our old codex in tact and given us the Covens supplement as well. Beast Pack AND Corpsethief Claw/Grotesquerie AND HWG Wyches? Yes, please.

*sighs*

**sobs while downing an entire bottle of whiskey**

Nope. I'd do pretty well with the old codex. Freakshows would be harder, but the dex would be better.

Fortunately, I play with a good friend who is okay letting me mix and match the old codex and the new supplement. I may try an experiment wherein I play his Eldar using a combination of both and see how effective it is against the top dog codex at the moment.

That would be so buck nasty.

Covenite Fleshcorps formations would be much better.

just comparing the eldar and dark eldar codecies, I wonder what gw's justification was for giving eldar mainly 3+ and 4+ saves but leaving dark eldar at 5+ at best, surely dark eldar have the tech to see true born in 4+ at least

Zagaboff wrote:
just comparing the eldar and dark eldar codecies, I wonder what gw's justification was for giving eldar mainly 3+ and 4+ saves but leaving dark eldar at 5+ at best, surely dark eldar have the tech to see true born in 4+ at least

My friend has explained this to be before, so I'll share his knowledge. Eldar's armor is all psycho-reactive (or, whatever). It repels enemy hits at just the time they're struck using psychic energy. As I'm sure you're aware, Dark Eldar do not have psycho-reactive armor, in fact, they wear essentially skin suits with knives on them.

That being said, there's a lot of things about Dark Eldar that have been neglected by GW, and a lot of units don't resemble what they do in fluff. Ghostplate armor is a 4+ with a 6++, and my friend has said that Trueborn should be able to take it on the whole unit, and all have access to special weapons, but hey, that would only make sense. Also, Eldar Windriders are essentially Guardians on bikes, and Guardians have a 5+ armor. But, put them on a bike, they magically gain a 3+ armor save, and a twin-linked weapon. Reavers? Supposed to be faster, hit harder, be hard to catch, ect. Yet, no twin-linked weapon, too expensive, and don't hit as hard. Also, only 5+ save still.

I can only conclude that GW made a conscious decision that they never wanted/needed to sell any of the following DE models for the remainder of 7th edition: Wyches, Hellions, Beasts, Void Raven, Drazhar, Incubi, Archon (WWP version excepted), and Lady Malys, because the rules/point costs they wrote for each of them certainly aren't motivation to buy them. Basically, other than RWJ, Reavers (though this is debatable), Scourges, and Coven units, GW handed out across the board nerfs to DE. While Eldar got across the board buffs AND formations that add even more buffs. Somebody at GW hates DE.

sweetbacon wrote:
I can only conclude that GW made a conscious decision that they never wanted/needed to sell any of the following DE models for the remainder of 7th edition: Wyches, Hellions, Beasts, Void Raven, Drazhar, Incubi, Archon (WWP version excepted), and Lady Malys, because the rules/point costs they wrote for each of them certainly aren't motivation to buy them. Basically, other than RWJ, Reavers (though this is debatable), Scourges, and Coven units, GW handed out across the board nerfs to DE. While Eldar got across the board buffs AND formations that add even more buffs. Somebody at GW hates DE.

Point of order: there is neither model nor rules for Malys. Also, Grots are categorically better.

But yes. Especially Wych units.

Fortunately, the GW rules hate is balanced by the fact that someone in model R&D lives us very much. We don't have a bad mini in our army.

 Jimsolo wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:
I can only conclude that GW made a conscious decision that they never wanted/needed to sell any of the following DE models for the remainder of 7th edition: Wyches, Hellions, Beasts, Void Raven, Drazhar, Incubi, Archon (WWP version excepted), and Lady Malys, because the rules/point costs they wrote for each of them certainly aren't motivation to buy them. Basically, other than RWJ, Reavers (though this is debatable), Scourges, and Coven units, GW handed out across the board nerfs to DE. While Eldar got across the board buffs AND formations that add even more buffs. Somebody at GW hates DE.

Point of order: there is neither model nor rules for Malys. Also, Grots are categorically better.

But yes. Especially Wych units.

Fortunately, the GW rules hate is balanced by the fact that someone in model R&D lives us very much. We don't have a bad mini in our army.

Oops, I meant Lelith. I get them confused because I've never used either one because they're both supposed to be CC specialists who are Str3 T3 (like most every other Wych unit). And I did reference Coven units as one of the few things that got some love from the design team, with Grots being the biggest winner in probably the whole codex.

You are right that we do have awesome models...many of which sit on the shelf and collect dust, never seeing the light of day in an actual game. I know my Hellions, Wyches, and Beasts haven't left their case since last October.

sweetbacon wrote:

You are right that we do have awesome models...many of which sit on the shelf and collect dust, never seeing the light of day in an actual game. I know my Hellions, Wyches, and Beasts haven't left their case since last October.

A while back I converted a mandrake into a Sorcerer-Archon:



Now if only I had a reason to use him...

 vipoid wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

You are right that we do have awesome models...many of which sit on the shelf and collect dust, never seeing the light of day in an actual game. I know my Hellions, Wyches, and Beasts haven't left their case since last October.

A while back I converted a mandrake into a Sorcerer-Archon:

Spoiler:

Now if only I had a reason to use him...

Very cool, Vipoid. Maybe you'll get a chance to use him in two years when we get our new codex.

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:
I can only conclude that GW made a conscious decision that they never wanted/needed to sell any of the following DE models for the remainder of 7th edition: Wyches, Hellions, Beasts, Void Raven, Drazhar, Incubi, Archon (WWP version excepted), and Lady Malys, because the rules/point costs they wrote for each of them certainly aren't motivation to buy them. Basically, other than RWJ, Reavers (though this is debatable), Scourges, and Coven units, GW handed out across the board nerfs to DE. While Eldar got across the board buffs AND formations that add even more buffs. Somebody at GW hates DE.

Point of order: there is neither model nor rules for Malys. Also, Grots are categorically better.

But yes. Especially Wych units.

Fortunately, the GW rules hate is balanced by the fact that someone in model R&D lives us very much. We don't have a bad mini in our army.

Oops, I meant Lelith. I get them confused because I've never used either one because they're both supposed to be CC specialists who are Str3 T3 (like most every other Wych unit). And I did reference Coven units as one of the few things that got some love from the design team, with Grots being the biggest winner in probably the whole codex.

You are right that we do have awesome models...many of which sit on the shelf and collect dust, never seeing the light of day in an actual game. I know my Hellions, Wyches, and Beasts haven't left their case since last October.

Malys was sort of an off-melee model. Her only offensive wargear happened to make her okay in melee (when paired with her invulnerable save), but he real reason I used to take her was for her redeployment shenanigans and psychic defense. Her melee gave her something to do other than babysit my psychic-proof units after redeployment was done. As for Lelith, she's sort of a mixed bag for me. Her statline is good enough for her to bully weak squads by herself (which is fun), and she can handle most sergeant-tier charactes pretty reliably. She just struggles against multi-wound enemies with invuls/fnp (AKA every major beatstick you're likely to face). Her low strength is soooort of mitigated when she gets furious charge, but I'm generally in assault by turn 2, so... yeah.

I actually really like archons and incubi too. Although archons are cursed to fail their shadow field the first time they roll a save, the shadowfield option can still dramatically alter how a unit behaves as can the webway portal they have access to. Access to a blaster makes a cheap archon an okay way to get an extra anti-tank shot, and huskblades are actually pretty solid even if people complaina bout their lack of AP 2. If you need ap 2, that's what the aforementioned incubi are for. You can get a squad of 5 incubi with a klaivex for relatively cheap. The venom or raider you transport them in is worth its own points by itself, so there isn't really a "tax" to transporting them. Their toughness is unimpressive, but they shrug off saves like a marine, and they grow some feel no pain over the first few turns . If there happens to be a cronos nearbye, they can improve that FNP even more, and they actually pair really well with an allied farseer or spirit seer, the former giving them rerolls to saves and wounds, the latter boosting their strength to potentially 6 and 7 on the charge or making their armor a 2+.

Wyches *do* have it pretty rough right now, but I've still managed to make them work for friendly games. Wyches are cheap enough to eat overwatch when I'm assaulting with multiple units, and they tarpit well enough against certain enemies for me to tie said enemy up while I get more lethal melee units into position (such as incubi, lhameans, or MCs). The hekatrix's melee options are waaaay too expensive (you'd probably be fine lowering both of them by 5 or 10 points), but if you bother to load her up with haywires and an agonizer, she'll make worthwhile plays in melee from time to time. The whole squad lacking haywires is a big nerf to them, but a hekatrix with haywires is still potentially giving you 2 haywire attacks a turn (shooting + assault). They could use a boost, but they aren't unplayable in non-tournament games.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Access to a blaster makes a cheap archon an okay way to get an extra anti-tank shot,

Except that 80pts for 1 blaster shoot is bloody awful anti-tank.

Wyldhunt wrote:
and huskblades are actually pretty solid

Against what?

What are these terrifying entities that have 3+ (or worse) saves, and yet somehow can't be removed by grotesques or mass poison shooting?

Furthermore, bear in mind that the Huskblade costs as much as a PF - which can punch out tanks, is AP2, wounds virtually anything on 2s (instead of 5s and 6s) and can still cause ID against any modelr with T4 or lower.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If you need ap 2, that's what the aforementioned incubi are for.

Why? Why is it fine for every other army's HQs to have AP2 weapons aplenty, yet our S3 Archons can't even get one? Hell, he's not even allowed Rending.

Let me know when Wolf Lords lose access to all AP2 weaponry and Hive Tyrants lose the Smash rule.

Lelith is, like Vulkan, no longer a chainsaw but a weed whacker. Not so great against beatstick units, but hell on heels against most base infantry squads.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Lelith is, like Vulkan, no longer a chainsaw but a weed whacker. Not so great against beatstick units, but hell on heels against most base infantry squads.

Very good analogy. Which leads to my next question. Do we really need a 150 point character to deal with basic infantry units?

Not sure I'd agree with them being the weakest. From what I've seen and heard they are tricky to play but if you can get it right they become a strong unit. If you are worrying that you're under-performing then try to practice running lists that pop up on the appropriate dakka forum or the one you run now? Just a thought?

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Lelith is, like Vulkan, no longer a chainsaw but a weed whacker. Not so great against beatstick units, but hell on heels against most base infantry squads.

Very good analogy. Which leads to my next question. Do we really need a 150 point character to deal with basic infantry units?

Eh, most of your weedwhackers are going to be 150+ pts, character or not. There is often a notion that HQ or characters should be doing epic things, but I find having them chew up and spit out trench units is just fine. She's not great, but she's not so terrible as to join Drazhar in riding the pine for the duration of 7th.

 vipoid wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Access to a blaster makes a cheap archon an okay way to get an extra anti-tank shot,

Except that 80pts for 1 blaster shoot is bloody awful anti-tank.

Wyldhunt wrote:
and huskblades are actually pretty solid

Against what?

What are these terrifying entities that have 3+ (or worse) saves, and yet somehow can't be removed by grotesques or mass poison shooting?

Furthermore, bear in mind that the Huskblade costs as much as a PF - which can punch out tanks, is AP2, wounds virtually anything on 2s (instead of 5s and 6s) and can still cause ID against any modelr with T4 or lower.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If you need ap 2, that's what the aforementioned incubi are for.

Why? Why is it fine for every other army's HQs to have AP2 weapons aplenty, yet our S3 Archons can't even get one? Hell, he's not even allowed Rending.

Let me know when Wolf Lords lose access to all AP2 weaponry and Hive Tyrants lose the Smash rule.

Blasters archons: Awful for the points, but cheap as HQs go, and you have to take one somewhere. Fifteen points for a BS7, S8 Ap2 shot (with lance) isn't awful, though haywire grenades are cheaper and more reliable and can be used in melee. *Shrug* I like the option. How much would you pay for a BS7 blaster shot?

Huskblades: You're essentially paying an extra 10 points for your power sword to have a chance at insta-gibbing whatever you're fighting. You don't want to use it against artificer armor guy, but against anything expensive with a 3+ save, it's pretty alright. I see it as 10 extra points to have a chance of finishing a hard fight faster with a little luck. Though it could probably stand to be about 10 points cheaper, those 10 points aren't generally making or breaking my army. If I don't want to spend the extra points, I don't have to, but the option is nice. It's not a matter of not being able to kill a unit with spammed shooting or grotesques. It's just an option. I kind of like that the close combat AP2 is a succubus thing as it makes the 3 main HQs feel like they each have a purpose. Previously, the archon was generally better at the succubus's job than she was. Now, she's your extra-fragile beatstick for when you really want some ap 2 punch.

Lack of HQ AP2: I think it's a shame that we lack more melee options in general (dark eldar are one of the few armies that would really benefit from a power lance, yet they're stuck with the sword). That said, I've never found myself going, "Oh no! my lack of a power fist or AP2 relic is losing me this game!" Terminators and broadsides get poisoned to death or chopped up by incubi. Characters with 2+ saves generally die to some combination of the above. We don't get powerfists, but we do get to swing first more often than not, and we pack plenty of nasty melee tricks of our own. Isn't a vet sergeant with a powerfist about 60 points? We might not have a lot of low AP options in our HQs, but we can take a lot of cost effect ap 2 attacks in the form of incubi or talos. Talosi? Taloi?

I don't know. Between incubi, MCs, disintegrators(!), blasters, and lances, I've never really felt I was all that hard up for AP2. If you *really* need AP2 in your hq slot, drazhar's an option. I use him for funsies a fair bit. He has issues with dreadnaughts and storm shields, but he tends to carve up most other things pretty well, even if he is pricey. We have a fair bit of AP2. it just isn't in our HQ slots. Also, sort of tying into the point about not having to send your HQ into these epic beatstick fights, I think it's important to remember that dark eldar like to be bullies. Our HQs aren't really great at taking on the biggest, baddest guy in the enemy army, but I don't think they're supposed to be. Let your archon, succubus, etc. go chew through something in power armor, maybe charge up your soul trap in the process. Let Lelith laugh as she shows off what WS9 and a 3+ invul save can do against the remaining tac marines' attacks. When your opponent sends his beatstick forward to avenge his fallen brothers in one-on-one combat, laugh at the inferior mon-keigh, and deny him the honor of facing you by having your lowly kabalites and venom pilots shower him with poison until he drops. If he's really a problem, send in some incubi. Heck, you might even attach your hq to the incubi. They used to be dedicated bodyguards after all, and they'll provide plenty of the AP2 you're looking for. Worried about challenges? Throw in a klaivex.

Melee tyrants are undesirable enough as it is. Leave the poor guys with their smash.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Blasters archons: Awful for the points, but cheap as HQs go

Except that 80pts for a useless HQ isn't cheap. Not when you get Librarians with excellent support abilities for 65-100pts.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Fifteen points for a BS7, S8 Ap2 shot (with lance) isn't awful,

Yes it is. There's no reason why Blasters need to cost 50% more than meltas when they're so much worse at anti-tank.

Wyldhunt wrote:
How much would you pay for a BS7 blaster shot?

I wouldn't. BS7 solves exactly none of the Blaster's many flaws.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Huskblades: You're essentially paying an extra 10 points for your power sword to have a chance at insta-gibbing whatever you're fighting.

And this assumes that 15pts for a power sword is somehow reasonable to begin with (hint: it isn't).

Wyldhunt wrote:
You don't want to use it against artificer armor guy, but against anything expensive with a 3+ save

But that's exactly the problem - these days virtually anything expensive is going to have a 2+ save.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If I don't want to spend the extra points, I don't have to, but the option is nice.

Speaking of which, you know what option I'd like? AP2.

I'd also like Venom Blades back - so that I have the option of a decent, cheap weapon on my HQ.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I kind of like that the close combat AP2 is a succubus thing as it makes the 3 main HQs feel like they each have a purpose.

Really? Currently I feel that the succubus is the only one with a purpose (and even she isn't going to be winning any prizes for best HQ choice). Haemonculi are garbage support, and even worse in combat; and Archons are just abysmal in melee and have no support abilities whatsoever to make up for it.

Furthermore, I ask again, why is it only our HQs that get lumbered with this sort of crap? e.g. Surely only the Necron Lord should be able to take a Warscythe or Voidblade - otherwise he won't have a purpose next to the Overlord? Likewise, surely only SM Captains and SW Battle Leaders should be able to take Power Fists - to make sure they have a role over SM Chapter Masters and SW Wolf Lords, respectively?

Wyldhunt wrote:
We don't get powerfists, but we do get to swing first more often than not, and we pack plenty of nasty melee tricks of our own.

The problem is that, a lot of the time, our swings just don't do anything. It's like being allowed to fire first in a dual, when you're armed with a water pistol.

Furthermore, what melee tricks are you referring to? I can't see any. Certainly none for the Archon.

Wyldhunt wrote:
We might not have a lot of low AP options in our HQs, but we can take a lot of cost effect ap 2 attacks in the form of incubi or talos. Talosi? Taloi?

But, once again, you could say this of every army - yet we're the only one with this restriction on our HQs.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I don't know. Between incubi, MCs, disintegrators(!), blasters, and lances, I've never really felt I was all that hard up for AP2. If you *really* need AP2 in your hq slot, drazhar's an option.

See above. It's not about being short on AP2, it's about having such lacklustre options for HQs. Other armies have the option to add AP2 weapons to their HQs. All I ask is that we be given the same. Hell, at this point I'd settle for Rending on the Huskblade - so that we'd at least have that chance to ignore 2+ saves.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If you *really* need AP2 in your hq slot, drazhar's an option.

I'm not seeing how that helps my archon.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Also, sort of tying into the point about not having to send your HQ into these epic beatstick fights, I think it's important to remember that dark eldar like to be bullies. Our HQs aren't really great at taking on the biggest, baddest guy in the enemy army, but I don't think they're supposed to be.

But that's the thing - an enemy doesn't have to be the "hardest guy" in order to have a 2+ save. Many comparatively weak HQs, MCs and other units have 2+ saves as well.

Also, once again, why aren't I even allowed the option? Why aren't I allowed an AP2 weapon, and the freedom to use it or not use it as I see fit? You know, like every other army?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Heck, you might even attach your hq to the incubi. They used to be dedicated bodyguards after all, and they'll provide plenty of the AP2 you're looking for.

And then when they inevitably get slaughtered, maybe my Archon could steal a better weapon from them?

I just don't see the appeal in having my HQs weapons all be the equivalent of a piece of poo on the end of a stick.


EDIT: Actually, let me put this in a different way. These were the Archon's weapons prior to our new book:

- A very cheap S3 blade with no AP and 2+ poison
- Several S3 AP3 weapons with various effects
- A Lance that's S4 AP3 when he charges, and S3 AP4 thereafter
- A S4 AP2 weapon that strikes last
- An expensive S3 AP2 weapon with ID that strikes at initiative

So, in our new book, which is your favourite Archon melee weapon? Is it the S3 AP3 one, or the S3 AP3 one? What about that S3 AP3 one? Or, are you perchance a rare fan of the S3 AP3 one?

@vipoid: don't get me wrong. I'd love to have more weapon options for our HQs (remember archons with incubus weapons?), and what we have *is* often overpriced for what you get. I guess I just don't rely on my HQs having AP2 most of the time.

You mention there being lots of 2+ save targets running around that you wish you could throw your archon at, but I'm having trouble thinking of what they would be. Any sort of HQ with a 2+ save is probably scary enough in melee for me to want to bully him with poison and disintegrators. Centurions are a great target for disintegrators and blasters. Terminators without storm shields are generally frowned upon, but they make excellent targets for any of our sources of AP2 except maybe the MCs. TH/SS termies are tough against anything, so you pretty much have to just keep shooting them until they drop; not a target for archons.

Maybe I'm missing something. Outside of grey knights, what's the 2+ save enemy that your archon is dying to get into close combat with? I ask with respect. I'm genuinely having trouble thinking of a target that your archon could handle with AP2 that you can't handle with something else.

As for the HQs, I see them breaking down like this:
Haemonculus: My least favorite generic one, but he's meant to be a support unit. Probably best taken with coven rules where their various formation buffs are quite nice. Can be geared up with some unorthodox melee options for niche targets.

Succubus: Super glass cannon. Is the only one who can get a strength boosting AP2 weapon in our HQ slot ouside of drazhar. Will die easily, but hits hard in melee.

Archon : Still hits pretty hard in melee if you give him an agoniser, but less hard than a succubus (thus keeping him from being better than her like he was in the last book). Can take a blaster (an option that I like) and a shadowfield (making him our most durable option). I know archons get pricey fast, but it's hard to feel bad about fielding a 2+ invulnerable save that can wound an MC on a 4+ and ignore its armor save.

Is it "fair" that our HQs don't have more AP2 options? Not really, though it does help cement the succubus's role. Are we significantly weaker for this lack of AP2? Again, not really. We can take ap 2 guns on our HQs. We can take AP2 heavy bolters on our basic transports. We can take entire squads of AP2 attacks with strength boosts. We have some of the most cost effective MCs in the game. We have AP2; just not necessarily in the same slot other armies do.

As for which of our (admittedly samey) weapons I usually give an archon, I usually go for the agoniser. It's pricey for what you get, but it's essentially a +1 strength power weapon against anything in power armor. You're essentially treating MCs like they were toughness 3 instead of 5 or 6 or whatever whiel ignoring their saves. Against T3 armies, you're rerolling to-wound against them on the charge starting turn 4 (or sooner). It's pricey, but it means your archon will perform admirably against anything short of a 2+ save.