Dark Eldar weakest codex?

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**vipoid**

master of ordinance wrote:

DE are like that. Sure, they are weak. Until you shove them in fast moving skimmer transports and fly across the board, unload on turn one and by turn two be smashing your opponents army in close combat.

And then you realise that all your combat units are absolute crap, and that you're basically delivering free kill points into the enemy lines.

**master of ordinance**

vipoid wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:

DE are like that. Sure, they are weak. Until you shove them in fast moving skimmer transports and fly across the board, unload on turn one and by turn two be smashing your opponents army in close combat.

And then you realise that all your combat units are absolute crap, and that you're basically delivering free kill points into the enemy lines.

You have clearly never thrown them against IG then. Seriously, the only things that dont wipe the floor with regular grunts are Grots and Tau. Veterans now, they are another story all together (I have a unit with the Grenadiers doctrine and a power fist that tackled a 10 man Cataphractii Terminator Assault Squad with Meteor Hammers and Storm Shields, plus a Captain also with the Meteor Hammer/Stormshield combo in close combat. And won by killing them all.)

**lustigjh**

vipoid wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:

DE are like that. Sure, they are weak. Until you shove them in fast moving skimmer transports and fly across the board, unload on turn one and by turn two be smashing your opponents army in close combat.

And then you realise that all your combat units are absolute crap, and that you're basically delivering free kill points into the enemy lines.

Mushkilla's Repugnant Ramblers beg to differ. He tabled Canoptek Harvest Decuricrons with two CC bombs and some semi-null deploy anchors. Grotesques are nuts with WWP.

**Jimsolo**

Lol, grotesques are just nuts.

They should have a special character with a top hat, cane, and monocle.

**lustigjh**

Jimsolo wrote:
Lol, grotesques are just nuts. They should have a special character with a top hat, cane, and monocle.

That sounds pretty easy, actually. Replace the cleaver with a cane and green stuff the other accessories for a gentleman Aberration.

**vipoid**

lustigjh wrote:

Mushkilla's Repugnant Ramblers beg to differ. He tabled Canoptek Harvest Decuricrons with two CC bombs and some semi-null deploy anchors. Grotesques are nuts with WWP.

Okay, that's one good melee unit,,, which wasn't delivered by a fast transport. And was from the Coven Supplement and not the actual Dark Eldar codex.

Are we just going to ignore all the other melee units in the book?

master of ordinance wrote:

You have clearly never thrown them against IG then.

That seems a rather foolish comparison. If we're going to say that DE melee units aren't crap great because they can beat guardsmen, well that sounds like saying that Bob is the world's best marksman because he can hit a barn door from 5 feet away. We're not exactly setting the bar very high.

Also, if I'm facing IG, the infantry are usually the least of my worries...

**master of ordinance**

vipoid wrote:
lustigjh wrote:

Mushkilla's Repugnant Ramblers beg to differ. He tabled Canoptek Harvest Decuricrons with two CC bombs and some semi-null deploy anchors. Grotesques are nuts with WWP.

Okay, that's one good melee unit,,, which wasn't delivered by a fast transport. And was from the Coven Supplement and not the actual Dark Eldar codex.

Are we just going to ignore all the other melee units in the book?

master of ordinance wrote:

You have clearly never thrown them against IG then.

That seems a rather foolish comparison. If we're going to say that DE melee units aren't crap great because they can beat guardsmen, well that sounds like saying that Bob is the world's best marksman because he can hit a barn door from 5 feet away. We're not exactly setting the bar very high.

Also, if I'm facing IG, the infantry are usually the least of my worries...

Ahahaha, yes. That is very true

**sweetbacon**

vipoid wrote:
lustigjh wrote:

Mushkilla's Repugnant Ramblers beg to differ. He tabled Canoptek Harvest Decuricrons with two CC bombs and some semi-null deploy anchors. Grotesques are nuts with WWP.

Okay, that's one good melee unit,,, which wasn't delivered by a fast transport. And was from the Coven Supplement and not the actual Dark Eldar codex.

Are we just going to ignore all the other melee units in the book?

master of ordinance wrote:

You have clearly never thrown them against IG then.

That seems a rather foolish comparison. If we're going to say that DE melee units aren't crap great because they can beat guardsmen, well that sounds like saying that Bob is the world's best marksman because he can hit a barn door from 5 feet away. We're not exactly setting the bar very high.

Also, if I'm facing IG, the infantry are usually the least of my worries...

I typically tend to agree with you on all things DE-related Vipoid, but I do think you're selling the Grotesques short, just a bit. They are great at grinding tough things down and slaughtering weak things. Sure, they have hard counters in the form of Str 10/Force, but everything has a hard counter to some degree. I agree that most if not all of our CC punch comes from the Covens book in the form of Grots and Talos, though.

**vipoid**

Sorry, it seems I didn't make my point very well - as I agree that grotesques are indeed good (well, coven ones at least

).

However, my point is that they're far from the only melee unit in the DE book (hell, Coven Grotesques aren't in the book at all).

And, I just don't think one good melee unit makes the DE book strong, when it also contains Wyches, Wracks, Bloodbrides, Hellions etc.

The other aspect is that many books with good melee units can further augment them with tanky characters. e.g. TWC are good to start with, and get even better when joined by a TWC Wolf Lord with T5 4 wounds, a 2+/3+, a S6 AP2 Rending sword that strikes at initiative and so on. In contrast, our characters are neither killy (the best we get is a S4 AP2 weapon), nor even remotely tanky. So, rather than being able to tank wounds for the squad, our characters need their squads to tank wounds for them. And, as above, they add very little killing power.

Grotesques don't usually suffer too badly from this (though I believe it is a weakness), but it's certainly another nail in the coffin for our other melee units.

**lustigjh**

vipoid wrote:
Okay, that's one good melee unit,,, which wasn't delivered by a fast transport. And was from the Coven Supplement and not the actual Dark Eldar codex.

I don't really know what you want from them. Grots are just as available in the actual Codex and they don't need a transport when they can no scatter deep strike and take up so much space. Want a transport? Throw them in a Raider. I think you're being overly critical. I agree that DE mostly suck in melee, but they're not devoid of strong melee units.

**vipoid**

Ok, so in good melee units we have Grotesques and...?

**Icelord**

I just got back from the killadelphia open gt and placed 7th using dark eldar primary. They are actually well matched vs a lot of current armies. I found necrons 3 times (2 Decurion, 1 mephrit dynasty) and went 2-1 vs them. I placed 7th overall.

**vipoid**

Could you post your list?

**Icelord**

Haha sure but you will all comment that it's 50% Eldar allies.

My defense is that the game is basically made for allies right now. That's how you fix your weaknesses.

Archon, armor of misery, blast pistol, agonizer, webway portal, haywire grenade 155

Kabalite warriors (5), venom, 2 cannon 105
Kabalite warriors (5), venom, 2 cannon 105

Raider, night shields, lance 75

Razorwing, 2 lance, splinter cannon, 2 mono, 2 necro 165
Razorwing, 2 lance, splinter cannon, 2 mono, 2 necro 165

Ravager, night shields, 3 disintegrators 125

Autarch, 70

DA (5), serpent, holo, scatter, shuriken 210

Fire dragons (5), serpent, holo, scatter, shuriken 275

Crimson Hunter 160

wraithknight 240

**vipoid**

Icelord wrote:
Haha sure but you will all comment that it's 50% Eldar allies.

Well, yeah, because it defeats the entire argument. You can't just claim that your "Dark Eldar" list did well, then give us a list with 50% eldar. How about using a pure DE list and seeing if you can achieve the same result?

Icelord wrote:

My defense is that the game is basically made for allies right now. That's how you fix your weaknesses.

And what if, God forbid, you actually want to play just Dark Eldar?

As opposed to 'Dark Eldar plus the most broken units from other codices'?

I'd also add that most other books can stand up on their own without allies - they don't have massive weaknesses that need plugging.

**Icelord**

So other than decurion what armies are playing 1 book and performing well?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean consistently at events. Not just 1 offs.

**vipoid**

Icelord wrote:
So other than decurion what armies are playing 1 book and performing well?

Are you talking about performing well in tournaments?

**Bharring**

That DE list is a CW Eldar list with DE support. It just happens that the CAD is DE, to get a boat and allow using only 1 CW Eldar troop to get the heavy hitters.

**Icelord**

Sure.

I am all about codex balance where every book is equal in power but that's simply not a thing, and has never been.

Unfortunately you need allies for a lot of armies to make them truly playable. I don't feel any less happy about my performance because I had eldar in my force.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new eldar book was not legal for the event. It was the past eldar book.

**vipoid**

Icelord wrote:

I am all about codex balance where every book is equal in power but that's simply not a thing, and has never been.

But the point is that it should be.

This is the 7th edition of this game, with rules that cost £80 minimum, and the balance is still atrocious.

**Icelord**

I do agree with you there vipold.

The strength of books now though is greatly influenced by their allies. Tau got a lot worse since eldar and them are no longer BB. The book is the same, but the game changed.

Dark eldar has some solid builds, but lacks in certain fields. (All books should have some weaknesses). They are playable because they have eldar allies. I would love it to be different but its not. Time to stop praying for change and either accept it or play something different.

**sweetbacon**

vipoid wrote:
Sorry, it seems I didn't make my point very well - as I agree that grotesques are indeed good (well, coven ones at least ).

However, my point is that they're far from the only melee unit in the DE book (hell, Coven Grotesques aren't in the book at all).

And, I just don't think one good melee unit makes the DE book strong, when it also contains Wyches, Wracks, Bloodbrides, Hellions etc.

The other aspect is that many books with good melee units can further augment them with tanky characters. e.g. TWC are good to start with, and get even better when joined by a TWC Wolf Lord with T5 4 wounds, a 2+/3+, a S6 AP2 Rending sword that strikes at initiative and so on. In contrast, our characters are neither killy (the best we get is a S4 AP2 weapon), nor even remotely tanky. So, rather than being able to tank wounds for the squad, our characters need their squads to tank wounds for them. And, as above, they add very little killing power.

Grotesques don't usually suffer too badly from this (though I believe it is a weakness), but it's certainly another nail in the coffin for our other melee units.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Aside from Grots and Talos, every other "assault" unit we have is pretty terrible. This leads me into my irritation with how the majority of the benefits from Power from Pain are really only useful in assault, which the majority of our army should not be in. And you're right that we don't really have a good tank (I'm not counting an Archon with a Shadowfield, since a tank should be able to survive a single roll of a one) or assault character. If we want AP2, we're using either a Succubus, who dies to a stiff breeze or Drazhar, who is way too expensive for what he does. Other than WWP caddies, our most useful HQ is a Llahmean.

**blaktoof**

The problem with the DE codex is that about half the units are assault oriented, but for some reason GW/The Editors/Someone was probably was enslaved and tortured by a dark kin player and now hates them- and they received very poor treatment in the new dex.

Wyches became worse, with no options now to modify combat drug rolls (cya duke...) loss of haywire grenades, and a dumbing down of the wych weapons. Many people expected a points decrease, or being able to dodge during any part of the assault phase (hello overwatch) but no, nothing. Most players would gak their pants if one of their basic infantry models completely lost a role it could perfom (av) Imagine if your tac marines all of the sudden could not take plasma or melta guns, or have a replacement for them. And the elite version of them could not either. When you look at new dexes like skitarri where they have basic infantry with haywire guns you realize it makes no sense.

Hellions, were never great, but went to being jump infantry and their weapons were downgraded, see comment about combat drugs above.

Bloodbrides, the elite wyches are wyches +pts for +attack and +LD, so they have the same problems as wyches.

Beastpacks dropped substantially in size they can be

Incubi, elite assault unit, has no assault grenades.

Considering how bad assault has been for a few editions, that these units did not see improvement in assault ability, reduction in cost, and some form of utility gain but rather saw their costs remain the same (more less) and lost abilities- leaves these models pretty much off the gaming table.

The other very large stealth nerf was to trueborn, previously you could take 3-4man units of them, put them in a venom + a character or two. Now they have to be min units of five, so if you want to put an IC with them they are either on foot or in a raider. Less utility.

The codex is not terrible, but a large part of it was actually -downgraded- when it got its 7th edition codex for no obvious reason.

Yes grots and talos are better, they did not sell last edition....not that grots sell now, but it increased sales of skaven rat ogres!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icelord wrote:
Haha sure but you will all comment that it's 50% Eldar allies.

My defense is that the game is basically made for allies right now. That's how you fix your weaknesses.

Archon, armor of misery, blast pistol, agonizer, webway portal, haywire grenade 155

Kabalite warriors (5), venom, 2 cannon 105
Kabalite warriors (5), venom, 2 cannon 105

Raider, night shields, lance 75

Razorwing, 2 lance, splinter cannon, 2 mono, 2 necro 165
Razorwing, 2 lance, splinter cannon, 2 mono, 2 necro 165

Ravager, night shields, 3 disintegrators 125

Autarch, 70

DA (5), serpent, holo, scatter, shuriken 210

Fire dragons (5), serpent, holo, scatter, shuriken 275

Crimson Hunter 160

wraithknight 240

I would say your list is eldar primary with DE allies tbh. 955pts are Eldar and the 895 are DE. pretty even, but saying DE is primary is not really genuine. Congrats on your placing though, that's a really nice score! How did you find the 3x disintegrator ravager performed?

**Icelord**

I made the choice to take it for a few reasons.

1. The version with 3 lances just doesn't do it anymore. Truthfully not very likely to kill armor.

2. In my local meta there are a ton of decurion right now. All the ap2 went a long way. It was a very fortunate choice to make for my list considering I fought 2 decurion and 1 mephrit dynasty...

**vipoid**

sweetbacon wrote:
Yeah, that's a fair point. Aside from Grots and Talos, every other "assault" unit we have is pretty terrible. This leads me into my irritation with how the majority of the benefits from Power from Pain are really only useful in assault, which the majority of our army should not be in.

I have the exact same problem with the pfp table. Having flimsy shooting units gain bonuses like Furious Charge and Rage is just pointless. Hell, even Fearless is a potential drawback as you run the risk of being locked in combat.

To be honest though, even the 'best' part of the table - FNP - is pretty poor a lot of the time. It's great on Grotesques and Talos/Cronos (but they come with it anyway, so thanks for nothing, pfp table), but on the rest of our T3 units... not so much. I just find too many things ignore it (most notably S6+), and too many things just don't care. Ask Sisters of Battle how resilient their T3 3+ save units are, and most of the time we're T3 with a 5+ save (since our armour is almost universally pitiful). I guess in theory it's nice to have that save, but looked at the other way, we have to wait 3 turns just to get a save that isn't ignored by basic guns.

What makes this even worse is that the bonus is granted in the most boring way possible - just a flat modifier based on the turn number, with no skill or effort required to obtain it.

sweetbacon wrote:
And you're right that we don't really have a good tank (I'm not counting an Archon with a Shadowfield, since a tank should be able to survive a single roll of a one) or assault character. If we want AP2, we're using either a Succubus, who dies to a stiff breeze or Drazhar, who is way too expensive for what he does. Other than WWP caddies, our most useful HQ is a Llahmean.

Indeed.

Also, with regard to Drazhar, the other frustration is that he's locked into Incubi squads.

blaktoof wrote:
The problem with the DE codex is that about half the units are assault oriented, but for some reason GW/The Editors/Someone was probably was enslaved and tortured by a dark kin player and now hates them- and they received very poor treatment in the new dex.

Wyches became worse, with no options now to modify combat drug rolls (cya duke...) loss of haywire grenades, and a dumbing down of the wych weapons. Many people expected a points decrease, or being able to dodge during any part of the assault phase (hello overwatch) but no, nothing. Most players would gak their pants if one of their basic infantry models completely lost a role it could perfom (av) Imagine if your tac marines all of the sudden could not take plasma or melta guns, or have a replacement for them. And the elite version of them could not either. When you look at new dexes like skitarri where they have basic infantry with haywire guns you realize it makes no sense.

Hellions, were never great, but went to being jump infantry and their weapons were downgraded, see comment about combat drugs above.

Bloodbrides, the elite wyches are wyches +pts for +attack and +LD, so they have the same problems as wyches.

Beastpacks dropped substantially in size they can be

Incubi, elite assault unit, has no assault grenades.

Considering how bad assault has been for a few editions, that these units did not see improvement in assault ability, reduction in cost, and some form of utility gain but rather saw their costs remain the same (more less) and lost abilities- leaves these models pretty much off the gaming table.

The other very large stealth nerf was to trueborn, previously you could take 3-4man units of them, put them in a venom + a character or two. Now they have to be min units of five, so if you want to put an IC with them they are either on foot or in a raider. Less utility.

The codex is not terrible, but a large part of it was actually -downgraded- when it got its 7th edition codex for no obvious reason.

Yes grots and talos are better, they did not sell last edition....not that grots sell now, but it increased sales of skaven rat ogres!

It's certainly depressing when you compare it to Eldar. Where virtually every single unit got handed several free buffs, and then got formations which offered even more free buffs. I can only assume that the design team is about 80% Eldar players

**oz of the north**

I would say the bigger sin committed, was how bland they made the codex. Yes, making them essentially a taxi service for the CWE hurts, but taking them from being fun with lots of interesting unique abilites, to what they currently are really is sad.

**vipoid**

oz of the north wrote:
I would say the bigger sin committed, was how bland they made the codex. Yes, making them essentially a taxi service for the CWE hurts, but taking them from being fun with lots of interesting unique abilites, to what they currently are really is sad.

Agreed.

Whilst irritating, being an underdog is something I can accept.

Being reduced to a dull, flavourless underdog is something I can't accept.

**Nightlord1987**

Hi there, I'm CSM. we're not a dying race but with our high points cost on everything you'd think we were. The highest shooting we get is a 4 shot evil auto cannon. We use Meltas for Anti tank. We have two transport options. Nearly every unit has a rule that screws us over. Our one flyer has one weapon. Every army is designed to kill us.

Wanna play?

**vipoid**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
The highest shooting we get is a 4 shot evil auto cannon.

Highest shooting?

**clamclaw**

vipoid wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
The highest shooting we get is a 4 shot evil auto cannon.

Highest shooting?

I think it's a reference to the Hades Autocannon at Heavy 4. It's the highest output of dakka available to pretty much any CSM unit, but of course you pay a premium (175 pts. for two of em on a AV12 platform... gross).

The only thing I've had luck with as CSM lately has been cultists spam, though at that point I might as well be playing Guard or IA:13 Renegades.