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-Squandering End Times which had good lore and reinvigorated a dying franchise
-New lore is awful
-Introducing space marine ripoffs into fantasy
-No points because feth gameplay lets shove as many models as we want in there
-Renaming everything with nonsensical copyrighted BS

I fear for the future of 40k

Names are not copyrightable, and Trademarks can legally be used by rival companies if done according to the rules. Thus for example I could market a range of Fantasy Lizardmen as being "Compatible with Warhammer(TM) Age Of Sigmar(TM) Seraphon(TM)."

All GW have achieved is to prevent me making a Lizardman and calling it a Seraphon.

Seraphon is a made up name that has no inherent meaning and doesn't sound like anything Lizardy or Fantasy. TBH it reminds me of Seraphim which is a completely different concept.

 insaniak wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Wow, GW set fire to all your stuff... those minis and rulebooks musta been like one of those Mission Impossible messages -- self destructing when you've read it

You've heard of metaphors, right?

The stuff they set fire to, in this case, is a game setting that people are quite find of. Yes, they still have their existing books... But the setting is now officially dead and buried, and won't be developed any further in any recognisable way.

I was being facetious. I know what you're saying -- but the problem was one of two things -- either the people who were fond of the setting weren't spending enough money, or there weren't enough people who were fond of the setting. It's pretty unreasonable to ask a company to keep producing stuff that isn't doing well.

So, GW has could either try to tweak the existing game in a way that would try to attract new customers, or do a reboot; they went for the latter. I'm pretty sure they figured, "Well, what have we got to lose? This stuff isn't moving anyhow."

The third alternative would be to create Sigmar as a forked path, and soldier on with 9e. I'm guessing they figured that wasn't profitable. Although, if Sigmar totally tanks, I suppose they could print 9e rules in a more traditional fantasy fashion, let Sigmar be Sigmar, and just not invest in many new models.

 Peregrine wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
no they wouldn't. Haesbro has stopped making it's own mini games. they've MASSIVLY scaled down D&D because apparently the world's most popular RPG isnt a high eneugh profit margin for em. they'd not be intreasted in GW at ALL.

There's an important difference here: they've abandoned their own miniatures games, but those games never had much popularity and faced huge barriers to entry in the miniatures market. So why keep throwing money at a plan that isn't working very well? Buying GW would be a completely different situation, since they'd instantly be the dominant company in the market and have near-guaranteed profit as long as they can avoid making GW's mistakes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
and even if we accept that the IP is reasonably valueable, it doesn't stand to reason that the game itself would be viewed as valueable.

Of course the game isn't valuable. It's a terrible game, and the first thing any sensible company would do if they bought the IP would be to delete the whole rulebook and start over again from scratch. But that's exactly what would be best for the community. Nothing about the current rules is worth keeping, and even if a new game in the 40k universe isn't perfect it would be hard to imagine getting one that is worse than what we have right now.

actually Haesbro's past mini games, for a time where doing quite well. then the CMG bubble burst.

as for the game, I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. if GW goes under and someone buys the 40k IP? It's very likely, 40K will as a game will be dead. instead the IP will be used to produce video games or something.

assuming they care about the IP at all and don't just want GW for their production hardware or something.

If GW goes under we can't assume 40k'll even be redeveloped. and if it is, it'd likely end up being a pre-painted collectable mini game or something.

sure tac squads are expensive, but when I open a box of them I don't have to worry if I've got tac marines or yet more eldar guardians.

people hoping for a Haesbro buyout need to look at the kinda mini games Haesbro has produced. they should also look at what Haesbro meddling did with D&D

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Names are not copyrightable, and Trademarks can legally be used by rival companies if done according to the rules. Thus for example I could market a range of Fantasy Lizardmen as being "Compatible with Warhammer(TM) Age Of Sigmar(TM) Seraphon(TM)."

All GW have achieved is to prevent me making a Lizardman and calling it a Seraphon.

Seraphon is a made up name that has no inherent meaning and doesn't sound like anything Lizardy or Fantasy. TBH it reminds me of Seraphim which is a completely different concept.

First of all, Seraphon is a dumb name for Lizardmen. They should have been something suitably reptilian, like Sthiss or Drakkos. Wait, I know: Slytherin! And they turn into giant snakes.

More generally, I guess I sort of see the desire to separate GW Lizardmen from generic Lizardmen; just like PP has Trollbloods instead of Trolls. On the other hand, I'm not really sure I see the point. Other than tournament settings (which GW gives an ork's fart about) and GW stores, who cares; you can use whatever model you want, including Termagants or Genestealers. Or Eldar. Or a roll of quarters. I mean, since the rules are free, and if you really like models from company X, what does it matter what those models are called?

But other than seeing it as pointless, I don't really care one way or the other what the Lizardmen were called. It's not like I was buying Lizardmen before, and it's pretty unlikely I'll be buying Seraphon in the future, or Lizardmen by any other name I'm just not a very reptile-friendly fella.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for the game, I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. if GW goes under and someone buys the 40k IP? It's very likely, 40K will as a game will be dead. instead the IP will be used to produce video games or something.

assuming they care about the IP at all and don't just want GW for their production hardware or something.

If GW goes under we can't assume 40k'll even be redeveloped. and if it is, it'd likely end up being a pre-painted collectable mini game or something.

I agree with this 100%.

I think the intellectual property is worth far more than the miniature business, because it has much more potential than the miniature business. In 30 years, Games Workshop has proven that even if you do everything right, even if you took their best year, in the grand scheme of things both the total profit and net profit margin are very low. Companies making acquisitions want the prospect, at least the possibility, of buying something for $50 million that will one day make $500 million.

No matter what you do, the entire miniature market will just not be that profitable. I mean, we can talk about "growth" and all that, but the truth is, most people in the world spend $0 per year on miniatures or miniature wargaming, and don't expect to. I mean, most people don't think about it or consider it, and if they did they would say, "this isn't for me". It isn't something that advertising or awareness or great rules or awesome models or cheap models can fix, because the truth is, the vast majority of folks don't have the patience to deal with minis and wargames. The gratification is most certainly far from instantaneous. Even with prepainted minis, it takes WAY more time to meet up with someone and play a game of X-Wing than it does to turn on the PC or Tablet and play an RTS, and let's be honest -- this is what a lot more people want. I'm not just saying that; compare the video game market to the hobby market. I mean, a great video game -- one title -- is worth a billion dollars, for heavens sakes. And then you get to make 10 sequels and a bazillion DLCs afterwards that people will autobuy.

But make the next Avengers or the next Halo with 40k IP? Now, that's sexy. Just look at the Transformers franchise -- and what a couple of successful movies was worth, compared to everything that preceded it.

 Talys wrote:
I was being facetious. I know what you're saying -- but the problem was one of two things -- either the people who were fond of the setting weren't spending enough money, or there weren't enough people who were fond of the setting. It's pretty unreasonable to ask a company to keep producing stuff that isn't doing well.

It's unreasonable to expect them to keep doing the same thing that isn't making money, certainly.

And fixing whatever is wrong is a much harder proposition when you don't do market research.

The third alternative would be to create Sigmar as a forked path, and soldier on with 9e. .

Not so much a forked path as a gateway drug, in the same way that Heroquest and Space Crusade led so many gamers of my generation to the wider world of Games Workshop games.

The idea of having a quick, easy to learn game to get people into the setting is a good one. Having it as the only product suggests though that they still think the majority of their customers are people who buy once and then move on... because I can't see this game holding anyone's interest for very long.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Names are not copyrightable, and Trademarks can legally be used by rival companies if done according to the rules. Thus for example I could market a range of Fantasy Lizardmen as being "Compatible with Warhammer(TM) Age Of Sigmar(TM) Seraphon(TM)."

All GW have achieved is to prevent me making a Lizardman and calling it a Seraphon.

Seraphon is a made up name that has no inherent meaning and doesn't sound like anything Lizardy or Fantasy. TBH it reminds me of Seraphim which is a completely different concept.

Indeed, I'm not sure why some many people get so hung up on the legal aspect of GW so much.

I think this is simple product delineation, so when Little Jonny Gamer goes into they FLGS and looks for Orruks (or whatever) that's what they search out or ask for rather than half a dozen other companies Orcs.

Seeing as they were rebooting the whole system it makes sense to do it now rather than piecemeal like 40K.

Discomfort/unfamiliarity with the new names and confusion on the whole Sigmarine/Angel line aside I'm hoping that this is a decent product. If it is and the interest I have seen at our club is anything to go by then I could see this being a good move by GW. If anything it could be more of a problem for Mantic than GW.

Honestly I just want them to start fixing their mistakes, don't particularly care how.
If this is a mistake that bankrupts them and they get bought by people who run them better, that's great by me.
If this is a failure that pushes them to start mending their ways, that's great by me.
If this is a success that encourages them to make better stuff, that's great by me.

And I speak as a new player keen to get involved (admittedly with 40k, not interested in new or old Fantasy Battle and LOTR is dead it would seem) and who will continue to get more stuff for quite a while as long as nothing too catastrophic happens. I still see that they've been screwing up quite a lot of stuff and that's a huge mistake with such a niche thing.
I'm no businessman but I can see that when you've got such a dedicated consumer base that they'll spend massive moolah on you quite regularly, that's quite a gold mine! But at the same time that gold mine comes at the cost that you really need to listen to them! Most entertainment stuff can afford to piss off dedicated fans in favor of appealing to a wider audience because they have the mainstream appeal to draw in that wider audience, wargaming really doesn't have that so they need to keep the dedicated fans in at least a REASONABLE state of morale to support them.
That all said, GW can probably continue to tick over as long as they don't deteriorate further or stay like this for too long.
Honestly a little bit of listening would go a long way to stabilizing them and their continual refusal to do so is probably the biggest mistake of them all... Price rises and undesired changes are at least understandable, refusing to even TRY to listen to the people who care enough to throw big money at you is just dumb.

As far as buyout discussions, Hasbro seems like a weird choice. What's next, are they gonna canonize all those 40k/MLP crossovers I keep bumping into? Are we gonna open the 9th Edition Spaces Marines codex to find that Varro Tigurius has been retconned out in favor of a new Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?

Sad thing is that probably would still not piss people off as much as some of GW's own decisions...

Hate to dredge up some stuff from last page but jah_joshua's replies got on my nerves a bit.
Dude, they are NOT getting mad at you because you still like GW's stuff, it's because you give the impression that you're not even TRYING to understand why they're upset or unsatisfied at all. If it was more along the lines of "I get what you're saying but it doesn't personally bother me, I'd personally suggest focusing on the old stuff you still like, that might soften the blow a bit." or "I don't really understand why this in particular is such an issue, could you explain it to me?" then you probably wouldn't be getting much hostility, if any. Hell they'd probably still be fine if it was you were just trying to explain your views in return. A little bit of empathy goes a long way and the big thing causing these spats is that you don't seem to be coming across as trying to have any.

The new names are interesting from a business viewpoint because GW themselves obviously are so hung up on it.

Why does GW need to differentiate their product after nearly 35 years of Warhammer Fantasy Battle being the most popular and best-known fantasy wargame in the world?

Only because 8th edition has clearly been such a disaster that it is considered better to throw away that heritage and begin something new that doesn't have any product familiarity.

Renaming the factions is all right, it can't do any harm really, GW are aiming at a new audience with AOS. It's a shame that names like "orruks" and "oggers" are so pathetic. One might have hoped the Design Studio could think of something more original and distinctive.

If GW are going to do it for legal reasons, it would be business-like actually to register the trademarks.

 Talys wrote:
I know what you're saying -- but the problem was one of two things -- either the people who were fond of the setting weren't spending enough money, or there weren't enough people who were fond of the setting. It's pretty unreasonable to ask a company to keep producing stuff that isn't doing well.

You're entirely right. Its the fault of the customers that GW couldn't sell enough Fantasy to keep it afloat in its old incarnation. Since market research is otiose in a niche and they do not perform play testing, clearly... GW had no other choice than to do what they did.

Been talking to a few people locally about this new system and it seems that the interest is surprisingly high, lots of people looking forward to simple rules and less restrictions on what they can and can't use.

I think its going to be pretty hit and miss, I am finding it hard to predict what the overall outcome will be. After reading the expected negativity on here I was not surprised to see plenty of people really excited by a whole new more accessible system.

Im still a bit gutted that they totally replaced the old one tbh.

Has there been any announcement on the nature transition from WHFB to this, or is it all assumption still?

One of things I really lost respect for GW over was the fate of Specialist Games. THere was no 'so long and thanks for all the fish', just a quiet removal of all the stock on the webstore, like they had finally noticed it and were embarrassed it was still there.

I've never been a Fantasy player, but I'd be disgusted if 'the end of Fantasy as we know it' were treated similarly.

Fantasy has been dead for quite a few years and AoS is not (at least in my area) going to bring in new players to the fantasy world. GW should have just pulled the plug and moved on. Yes it's another nail in the coffin right next to the old nail that was WHFB 8th Ed.

Nope, I don't want it to be the 'final nail' or whatever. I want it to succeed.

Sadly, I don't see that happening unless they start trying to get into the social media scene even somewhat. They need to actually drive their product toward new folks that have already seen their digital products and entice them to play.

AoS will just be the gateway plastic-drug. The problem I see now is that folks that had fantasy minis just need the warscrolls - so they need to release a book of those, but from a money making standpoint, it should be one for each faction.
Without the new customer infusion though, they're in the same boat, just different unknown waters.

They really need to take how Privateer Press or Wizards of the Coasts markets things and go that route - daily content, sneak previews, etc. They need to drum hype, and try to drive conversations that don't have such of a negative slant.

I don't know whether WH had an allies-matrix-style thing, but I see the AoS to be a lot of that.
If Good guys against Bad guys is doable, this will keep the number of army books down, and free up shelf space for other (40k) models.
As long as old models can be used, and if more ways to play (skirmish, movement tray formations, etc) are viable, WH might just survive this.
Did I read that the rules will be free? Cut to the bone, obviously, with an Advanced WH hardback as an option, I expect.

An interesting point about AOS is that the new round bases make your new Fantasy models incompatible with all other Ancients/Fantasy mass battle rules.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting point about AOS is that the new round bases make your new Fantasy models incompatible with all other Ancients/Fantasy mass battle rules.

True, but it now makes it compatible with Pathfinder/D&D minis!

I see this as part of a trend with GW that has been around for a while, which I just find mystifying. GW seems to want to avoid making things that you might use in another game.

I know that they would prefer if you would play their game, and not other people's games, but if someone wants to buy a GW model and use it in D&D, who cares?

GW has the economy of scale and the control over their own production to really be able to dominate the (admittedly small--sorry for the pun) miniatures market, but they insist on grimdarking (or now hammer/lightning) things up so that they are a bad match for others. Everybody could buy a gameboard, but GW makes one with skull pits. Everybody could buy Fantasy or Sci-Fi bunkers, but GW covers theirs with game-specific stuff (instead of having that stuff as sprue decoration).

It's like they think that by reducing the potential audience to players of their games, they will get people to play their game.

Rayvon wrote:Been talking to a few people locally about this new system and it seems that the interest is surprisingly high, lots of people looking forward to simple rules and less restrictions on what they can and can't use.

That's the thing, whether people love it or hate it, something like this WILL inevitably grab a lot of attention by its very nature.
Not to discredit what you said, just food for thought because this is probably a good part of why GW are doing this. Fantasy Battle's biggest "failing" in GW's eyes is probably how few people gave a crap about it and ignored it in favor of 40k and (when it was big) LOTR, so it's understandable why they'd do something so attention-grabbing, even at the cost of pissing off a lot of people.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting point about AOS is that the new round bases make your new Fantasy models incompatible with all other Ancients/Fantasy mass battle rules.

Well, you can base your AOS models on whatever bases you want, since they're irrelevant to AOS

Why is my first reaction that this is a clone of Warmahordes from how they seem to be organizing factions and models?

I dunno... seems interesting to me. I totally divested myself of WHF but might give AoS a look.

If they can capture reasonable gameplay with warhammer theme, and lower model count, they might have a winner since 'price per model' means nothing and people have no issue paying for expensive models as long as 'total buy-in' is low, right?

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Rayvon wrote:Been talking to a few people locally about this new system and it seems that the interest is surprisingly high, lots of people looking forward to simple rules and less restrictions on what they can and can't use.

That's the thing, whether people love it or hate it, something like this WILL inevitably grab a lot of attention by its very nature.
Not to discredit what you said, just food for thought because this is probably a good part of why GW are doing this. Fantasy Battle's biggest "failing" in GW's eyes is probably how few people gave a crap about it and ignored it in favor of 40k and (when it was big) LOTR, so it's understandable why they'd do something so attention-grabbing, even at the cost of pissing off a lot of people.

To be fair, a lot of us didn't give a crap because it sucked, and sucked enough that it wasn't worth talking about, let alone motivating us to buying anything. Normally I just avoid or tune out WFB discussion, but it's worth noting here because I'm seeing a WFB that doesn't contain all the stuff that made me indifferent to the previous version.

nkelsch wrote:
Why is my first reaction that this is a clone of Warmahordes from how they seem to be organizing factions and models?

I dunno... seems interesting to me. I totally divested myself of WHF but might give AoS a look.

If they can capture reasonable gameplay with warhammer theme, and lower model count, they might have a winner since 'price per model' means nothing and people have no issue paying for expensive models as long as 'total buy-in' is low, right?

I never bought into the argument of the "high ppm is cool as long as total buy-in is low", because I enjoy the modelling aspect. But yeah, you certainly can't argue that the total buy-in of Sigmar is high. The game is very cheap. And without knowing if there's some kind of scenario system in the 96 page book, we can at least assume that two players will agree on the approximate size of the battle to be limited to the army size of the player with the smaller collection.

Like, "I have 300 models." "But I only have 30" "Okay, I'll just play these guys, and we'll do a 4x4 then, cool?"

As far as the miniatures go, it's a better price than any other comparable bundle that I can think of.

The real question for gaming, to me is: "Is it fun?"

If it's fun, we'll use it as a filler, just as we sometimes use WMH or XWing or Kill Team, because we have not enough time to play a 40k game. If gameplay is stupid, it will be a hundred-some-odd-dollar box of models with a rulebook that gathers dust.

I'm also totally ok with just playing with the models in Sigmar and nothing else.

No matter how many bad things Games Workshop had been doing over the years, I wouldn't want to see them gone. Changed - yes, but not gone. Tabletop wargames have found themselves in a niche like never before; who would've thought virtual gaming to become so popular as it is nowadays. I think that their sales are declining not only because of the prices, but also because of the interest drop in our hobby.

To be honest I've never bought any GW miniatures directly from their stores; paints, brushes - yes, but all my miniatures are second-hand or from retail sellers who held discounts. I really do hope GW's prices will change, or that we would at least see some discounts from time to time on some of their stock...

Nomeny wrote:

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Rayvon wrote:Been talking to a few people locally about this new system and it seems that the interest is surprisingly high, lots of people looking forward to simple rules and less restrictions on what they can and can't use.

That's the thing, whether people love it or hate it, something like this WILL inevitably grab a lot of attention by its very nature.
Not to discredit what you said, just food for thought because this is probably a good part of why GW are doing this. Fantasy Battle's biggest "failing" in GW's eyes is probably how few people gave a crap about it and ignored it in favor of 40k and (when it was big) LOTR, so it's understandable why they'd do something so attention-grabbing, even at the cost of pissing off a lot of people.

To be fair, a lot of us didn't give a crap because it sucked, and sucked enough that it wasn't worth talking about, let alone motivating us to buying anything. Normally I just avoid or tune out WFB discussion, but it's worth noting here because I'm seeing a WFB that doesn't contain all the stuff that made me indifferent to the previous version.

Also a good point. in fact I think the two reasons actually kinda tie in together.
Since a lot of people really didn't like it the "guaranteed buzz" of a big reboot would beat out anything relying on normal fan interest.
And because of what you said you'd have "Will they make it better?" hype on top of the whole reboot buzz.
At least, that's my theory.

 Talys wrote:


The real question for gaming, to me is: "Is it fun?"

That is what I want to know!

Also... 'is it balanced?'

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 Talys wrote:

More generally, I guess I sort of see the desire to separate GW Lizardmen from generic Lizardmen; just like PP has Trollbloods instead of Trolls.

Point of order, PP absolutely has Trolls. "Trollbloods" is the name of the faction, which contains the more intelligent Trollkin and also full blood Trolls for Every. Single. Warbeast.

 Talys wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting point about AOS is that the new round bases make your new Fantasy models incompatible with all other Ancients/Fantasy mass battle rules.

Well, you can base your AOS models on whatever bases you want, since they're irrelevant to AOS

I shall not be buying any AOS models, as I will play it with models I have from other systems. However a noob, who is buying AOS from the get go, if in a couple of years they decide they want to play something else, they will have a major job of rebasing on their hands.

This is not IMO a cunning plan by GW to put people off from other games. It is just that the circular bases are more artistic for model collectors.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I shall not be buying any AOS models, as I will play it with models I have from other systems. However a noob, who is buying AOS from the get go, if in a couple of years they decide they want to play something else, they will have a major job of rebasing on their hands.

This is not IMO a cunning plan by GW to put people off from other games. It is just that the circular bases are more artistic for model collectors.

Yes -- it sounds dumb, but one of the reasons I never much painted Fantasy models is because they were on square bases, and I don't like them as much for modelling; at the same time, I didn't want to paint up models that couldn't be used. So in that sense, the round bases appeal to me, though certainly, there are many other reasons I paint more scifi rather than Fantasy models -- mostly, that I like high tech, futuristic guns. I guess that would be a bit hard for GW to fix in a fantasy setting If only Wood Elves had Shuriken Cannons, and Sigmarites had Heavy Flamers!

Ironically, one of the reasons I paint less WMH models than I do is that I don't like lipped bases, LOL. Many times, I've actually prepped a WMH model, looked at the base, and then take it apart and shelve it.

 keezus wrote:
You're entirely right. Its the fault of the customers that GW couldn't sell enough Fantasy to keep it afloat in its old incarnation. Since market research is otiose in a niche and they do not perform play testing, clearly... GW had no other choice than to do what they did.

Who said they don't play test? They certainly do, and it isn't done by studio staff. They have a dedicated team for each system (well, not lotr anymore).
It's no ones fault, the market clearly isn't sustaining the game, and hasn't been for a long time. So they are making the right decision and moving on. No one expected Sony to continue making walkmans when people stopped buying cassettes.

 JamesY wrote:

 keezus wrote:
You're entirely right. Its the fault of the customers that GW couldn't sell enough Fantasy to keep it afloat in its old incarnation. Since market research is otiose in a niche and they do not perform play testing, clearly... GW had no other choice than to do what they did.

Who said they don't play test? They certainly do, and it isn't done by studio staff. They have a dedicated team for each system (well, not lotr anymore).
It's no ones fault, the market clearly isn't sustaining the game, and hasn't been for a long time. So they are making the right decision and moving on. No one expected Sony to continue making walkmans when people stopped buying cassettes.

Yeah, but nobody expected them to stop making the Walkman (modern) and instead build a hand-wound record player (outdated). That's basically what these rules are. They have the capacity to create a game that would be attractive to all but instead chose to make something that is equivalent to put all of your models on the table, move them around and make clang clang noises until your opponent gives up and walks away.