Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
EDIT: I must correct myself; It's like saying that because a dog cannot be considered evil, the owner cannot either and must therefore be forgiven for all crimes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 12:11:16
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 12:14:04
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
Pure speculation on your part on all but your first and third point. Even if the majority of Demons didn't have free-will their respective Gods may have it. At this point you're arguing semantics which really don't have a place or purpose in the 40k universe, they commit acts defined as us by evil, they are evil by extension.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 13:02:28
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
You are righr, I mean Warp in a place where I said Chaos. The Warp being the place in which Chaos manifests (Chaos with a capital C), it contains the metaphysical.laws by which Chaos is created.
You cannot label something evil simply by the acts they commit. Killing things is evil, but we do it by the billions on a daily basis to survive. Some religious systems posit that burning a particular book is of the greatest evil, but will happily bomb a plane.
Serial theft can be considered an evil, but many do it just so they won't starve.
Morality is not as black and white as the statement "Their actions are evil, therefore they are evil" would suggest.
Khorne embidies war and rage not by choice, but because that is all he is. He has not the capacity to change that, and by not doing war stuff Khorne would surely die. Beings of the Warp/Chaos are stuck somewhere between Amorality and Orange/Blue morality.
Edit: Phone damnit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 13:24:01
IllumiNini wrote: That would also mean that the thing it's reflecting cannot be evil. In other words, you're essentially saying that there is no evil in 40K.
The logic of that statement would be like saying rhat an owner has no control over his dog. Chaos reflects and is subservient to thematerial universe. Humans and the like have the capacity for evil, and when they do evil, Chaos becomes a nasty place.
You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
They manifest from emotion, not evil, a byproduct of those emotions is something we consider evil, thus, they become what we think they are, so if the sentient races stopped fighting, made peace, and didn't engage in total war, then the gods of Chaos would dissipate back into the warp, and something else would rise.
Many novels have shown us that deamons are literally formless anti energy, when the deamons encounter a mind, they begin to take shape, form themselves into the stuff of nightmares, but until that point, they are nothing but potential.
Deamons dedicated to a particular god are simply shadows of the gods being, they don't have any free will at all, but are extentions of the will of the greater being, the chaos gods made a sentient being and gave it free will, that ended badly for them, one was expelled from the warp with its followers, the other is belakor, the deamon primarchs are even said to be just extentions of the gods will at this point.
Sentience is important here, deamons are self aware, but don't have a soul or freewill, they lack the very moral and intellectual tools to choose right from wrong, thus they cannot be evil, they can commit acts of evil, but not through Any cognitive choice, thus they are not evil, merely slaves to their nature and our own.
Pure speculation on your part on all but your first and third point. Even if the majority of Demons didn't have free-will their respective Gods may have it. At this point you're arguing semantics which really don't have a place or purpose in the 40k universe, they commit acts defined as us by evil, they are evil by extension.
Pure speculation backed by a whole heap of fluff, so yes.
My second point is pretty much describing events from several black library books, where deamons are literally formless and don't actually manifest until the space marine is looking at it and it is using his perception and mind to form, same happens in thousand sons, the warp creatures attack ahirman are formless until he gives them form by comparing them to a shark, he even describes them as warp predators, not sentient beings.
Again deamons have always been described as extentions of their god, their intelligence varies on the power they have reached and the favour of there god, some are incredibly intelligent but totally lack the ability to do anything other than what is in their nature, when you add the human factor to the warp, it manifests these creatures, they didn't exist before, but now they pop out of the warp and immediately size upon the first mental image they can, usually this is terror or fear.
The chaos gods subjects are slightly different in that they are already formed to an extent by our hatred etc. And these are far less dangerous to summon I'd imagine than a formless deamon that is unaligned.
I apologize if someone has already stated this but our current definition of good is basically the classical definition of altruism. Helping other, being compassionate, allowing others certain freedoms as long as they don't interfere in other people. Our current definition of evil is selfishness, self-preservation above the welfare of others, and the infliction, direct or indirect of harm or confinement, physical or metaphysical. These standards don't apply in 40k. There is no concept of it here on the macroscopic scale. When you talk about billions and trillions of people spread across thousands of different worlds, the Imperium operates on a level that cannot take the personal well-being of individuals into account. Also on this scale the interests of all out weight the liberties of the few so almost every action and its consequences will be perceived as evil to us who live in a society that is at least a millionth the size of the imperium. Galactic politics will make current geopolitics look like friendly disagreements and our wars look like military exercises rather than gut wrenching horrors. As a result of this the only ethical/moral axis that can be applied is the law vs chaos. And that axis is clearly delineated in the fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 17:13:36
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 18:44:14
Keep in mind this does not apply to the mortal followers of Chaos but rather, the Gods and Daemons who cannot be any other way because of their nature.
They are essentially mentally handicapped beings operating on a grander scale. They have some semblance of choice, but they cannot act against what they are formed as.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
No he wouldn't. The Warp is connected to other universes, there's already enough beings in the warp to feed Chaos in the first place, and we don't even know anymore if Khorne was actually created, or if the Chaos Gods are eternal entities who weren't even spawned by mortal thoughts (see Slaanesh orgying itself into existence).
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
There was a moment in a book (I'm not sure which but I will find it) where a demon of Nurgle admitted that if he did not exist it would be beneficial for everyone.
The Demons are aware the acts they commit are by our definition evil. But they do them anyway, so they can get stronger. It isn't for survival.
Also to argue there will never be fighting in the universe so they fight for survival is pointless. Each of their aspects have been represented by humanity forever and always will be. They are not in danger of dying and never will be.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
No, the Gods were created after mortals died; mortals never had a choice in the matter. When mortal souls are generally peaceful, you end up with generally peaceful Gods of Chaos being the most powerful. When the galaxy is in great termoil (such as the War in Heaven, which created Chaos in the first place), negative energies become predominent; causing for the Gods of War and pain and despair to become more powerful. Those Gods are composed of souls - human souls - which understand right and wrong and morality. Therefore, the Gods understand right and wrong. Therefore, the Chaos Gods are evil because they have cast aside any sense of morality for personal gain.
Can you blame a man for punching in the face when you surprise him in the dead of night? no. Can you blame a man for seeking you out and punching in the face in the dead of night? yes. Chaos is evil as much by choice as anything. What originally made Chaos into what it is today is the innumerable souls that died and went into the Warp. These souls included a sense of morality; of right and wrong. The warrior's code went into Khorne just as much as the warrior's rage. The hopeful's desire for a better future went into Tzeentch just as much as the desire for change. The lover's affection went into Slaanesh just as much as the lover's lust. The father's love went into Nurgle just as much as despair. All of the Chaos Gods are composed of souls. Human Souls, Eldar Souls, Tau Souls, every sentient being that has ever lived and died is now inside of the Warp; part of an entity in the Warp. The Gods understand right and wrong; they just choose to ignore them.
Also, sorry, the quotes got all screwy, so I ended up deleting half of them.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Chaos Spawn wrote:Evil is a point of view. However, as Chaos is created by mortals, if they think it is evil then they by extension are evil for creating something evil. On the other hand, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent certain aspects and would denature if not feeding those aspects. Can you blame a poison dart frog for killing someone who touches it? No, it's created with self-preservation already in the design, and cannot act other than that. Likewise with Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
And mortals created them:so mortals are more evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry meant to quote didn't work.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
All I've been doing is explaining why they are not evil?
No, the Gods were created after mortals died; mortals never had a choice in the matter. When mortal souls are generally peaceful, you end up with generally peaceful Gods of Chaos being the most powerful. When the galaxy is in great termoil (such as the War in Heaven, which created Chaos in the first place), negative energies become predominent; causing for the Gods of War and pain and despair to become more powerful. Those Gods are composed of souls - human souls - which understand right and wrong and morality. Therefore, the Gods understand right and wrong. Therefore, the Chaos Gods are evil because they have cast aside any sense of morality for personal gain.
Can you blame a man for punching in the face when you surprise him in the dead of night? no. Can you blame a man for seeking you out and punching in the face in the dead of night? yes. Chaos is evil as much by choice as anything. What originally made Chaos into what it is today is the innumerable souls that died and went into the Warp. These souls included a sense of morality; of right and wrong. The warrior's code went into Khorne just as much as the warrior's rage. The hopeful's desire for a better future went into Tzeentch just as much as the desire for change. The lover's affection went into Slaanesh just as much as the lover's lust. The father's love went into Nurgle just as much as despair. All of the Chaos Gods are composed of souls. Human Souls, Eldar Souls, Tau Souls, every sentient being that has ever lived and died is now inside of the Warp; part of an entity in the Warp. The Gods understand right and wrong; they just choose to ignore them.
Also, sorry, the quotes got all screwy, so I ended up deleting half of them.
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/21 13:05:54
The warp is called the sea of souls, this is not literal, souls literally dissipate into the warp and what happens after no one knows, we know what happens when deamons get them, or when the souls are in the realm of Chaos (part of, but separate from the warp), the chaos gods are not made of souls, they are made of emotions, these emotions are squalls within the warp, they get larger and larger and start to pull on other squalls, brining them into the strongest (like how black holes pull in other or galaxies colliding) getting larger, at some point they start to gain sentience, but are still made up of the raw emotions and others they assimilated into themselves, invariably these are the strongest emotions, such as hate, desire for change, fear and pleasure, the chaos gods are the most powerful of these sentient storms, others appear and are absorbed or destroyed all the time.
You really need to read more fluff on the warp and chaos dusara.
There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/21 16:53:03
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Chaos Spawn wrote: I would kindly ask that you don't talk about me in this way.
I whole heartedly agree, it's not warranted or nesseary.
And to the point, I and others have pointed out that Chaos is not evil, its defo not good however, it's neutral to its core, it's commits evil acts, but is itself not evil and cannot be.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
There's no argument for chaos being good, because there is not much that can be considered good in it. But it also cannot be considered evil as it bypasses the logic of our morality system.
I think at this point, it only makes sense to either call Chaos amoral, or come to the conclusion that it operates on an entirely different morality scale.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: There isn't really a strong argument for chaos being good at all.
Doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium is good either, but that's all been said already.
There's no argument for chaos being good, because there is not much that can be considered good in it. But it also cannot be considered evil as it bypasses the logic of our morality system.
I think at this point, it only makes sense to either call Chaos amoral, or come to the conclusion that it operates on an entirely different morality scale.
Agreed, here's a conundrum, since the more powerful emotional vortexes absorb the weaker ones, is it possible that Chaos actually does good things, maybe the living saints and acts of divinity attributed to the big e, could actually be facets of the chaos gods innate chaotic nature, commiting both good and evil acts all the time seems pretty chaotic.
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
Firstly, before I answer your questions, you tried to counter my statement about Tau be linking me to this:
The Tau have no psykers whatsoever among their ranks, for their souls are so feeble they barely register in the Warp at all. They are largely oblivious to the malevolent forces of Chaos, who in turn take no interest in the crumbs that are Tau souls. No Tau has ever been corrupted by Chaos.
How does this counter my point?
Chaos Spawn wrote:
You clearly do not understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau, for though they are sentient they have no Warp presence. The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
That is the most broken logic I've ever read. Also, "you clearly don't understand the fluff or you would not have mentioned Tau"? Have a look at this, and this, and this, and this (fourth post down), and this (9 posts down). That was just from the first two pages of a google search (and 90% of it came from the first page), really not that hard. I find myself growing more and more disgusted with your attitude.
According to the Lost and the Damned, when a person's souls enters the Warp it breaks down into its constituent energies (mostly emotional), and then these energies pool with other energies; thereby creating Chaos Entities.
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them.
Oh, what specific examples of this do we have? When has Khorne ever spared the weak in favor of killing the strong? When has Slaanesh ever actually showed love to anybody? Any examples?
Also, this
The Chaos Gods DO represent these aspects you say they ignored and do act upon them. For example, when humanity's hope was at its highest in the Dark Age of Technology, Tzeentch became incredibly powerful but also incredibly positive. Here we also see that the Gods would not survive if they didn't embody their aspects because when hope was almost eradicated at the end of this era, Tzeentch shattered and was almost destroyed. Therefore they must act upon the evil parts of their nature to survive.
I have yet to see hide nor tail of this (outside of this thread), so would you mind citing a source? Pretty please?
Also, that is completely broken logic.
Tzeentch becomes composed of more hopeful energies, and thus his hopeful aspects become more pronounced (this makes sense). He is then (somehow) nearly obliterated by a period of great upheaval (sounds like one of Tzeentch's wet dreams, tbh), in which many great magicks are performed, that eradicates this hopeful attitude. Therefore, Tzeentch is effected by the Materium and must, therefore use his power to modulate Mortals and ensure that whatever aspects of himself he wants to be strengthened are strengthened. That is linear logic; it is logical and sensical. What isn't logical is Tzeentch being forced to act upon his evil tendecies to survive. Any time there is a significant portion of Psykers in the galaxy, Tzeentch will survive ( and you can be damned certain that Psykers are never going away). Any time there is change going on in the galaxy, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find a masterful scheme occuring, you will find Tzeentch surviving. Any time you find hopeful Mortals, you will find Tzeentch surviving. You may have left out a few steps there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you made a jump in logic using information you failed to provide in the analogy. So please elaborate upon your logic
Firstly, before I answer your questions, you tried to counter my statement about Tau be linking me to this:
The Tau have no psykers whatsoever among their ranks, for their souls are so feeble they barely register in the Warp at all. They are largely oblivious to the malevolent forces of Chaos, who in turn take no interest in the crumbs that are Tau souls. No Tau has ever been corrupted by Chaos.
How does this counter my point?
You seemed to believe that the Tau had no souls. A soul is, by definition, the Psychic relfection of a person into the Warp (and is what makes up Chaos Gods). If Tau have souls, then they have an impact on Chaos (no matter how small it is).
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I love these kinds of discussions, thanks for getting the mental juices flowing everyone, thought I'd inject some much needed positivity into the thread
Misplaced full stop, Dusara, delete it off the end of the link.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
At War With Fate? Maybe I am and maybe I'm not... 
