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A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition
Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
LethalShade wrote: Anyone fething with the Inquisition is, if not a good guy, a badass.
It's easy to screw with the inquisition when you're using the lives of Guardsmen and civilians to do it. Easy to gamble when it ain't your money you're betting, so to speak.
curran12 wrote: Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition
Yeah, and what a noble stand he made. I mean, he showed the Inquisition how to kill MORE people, put MORE in danger for LESS gain!
What a hero that Grimnar is, right?
His whole claim was "they are killing innocents", so his protest dooms many, many more innocents to death. As much as you want to drape Logan with praise for standing up to the Inquisition, it was not out of nobility. He did it for pride, and would have escalated it to consume more lives to assuage his ego.
Phew, aggressive responses dude. I interpreted it as noble, maybe I'm wrong who knows. I'm not a fan of the inquisition
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 18:22:44
EngulfedObject wrote: I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
Really? "Grimnar was a good guy because he was, after several hundred years as a war leader of the Imperium, too thick to know what the Inquisition do for a living."
That's your argument?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
EngulfedObject wrote: I doubt Grimnar realized the lengths the Inquisition would go to prevent IG troop transports from escaping, going full-on exterminatus against several planets... which turned out to be pointless anyway as they left the job unfinished. He also showed considerable restraint in the beginning (not returning fire when fired upon), only turning to violence after the Inquisition escalated matters.
And to be fair, it was the Inquisition murdering innocent civilians and IG troops, not Grimnar. The whole incident is pretty dumb anyway as IG troops are aware of Chaos (perhaps not daemon primarchs but how would they really know the difference anyway?).
Really? "Grimnar was a good guy because he was, after several hundred years as a war leader of the Imperium, too thick to know what the Inquisition do for a living."
That's your argument?
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm simply saying Grimnar probably didn't realize the Inquisition would exterminatus several planets over a few troop transports carrying IG that happened to fight Chaos, since the average citizen is well aware of the existence of Chaos (as you argued in this same thread) and IG regularly fight Chaos.
Where did I say he was a good guy? Implying the Inquisition was simply doing what was necessary and Grimnar is to blame is a rather flawed argument, seeing how the IG transports that escaped didn't lead to an outbreak of Chaos corruption.
If it's about the secret existence of Chapter "666" then the whole incident becomes even dumber as IG would just think they are Space Marines.
Oh and I'll get back to you on the Tau script looks like Necron script (it doesn't) thing when I have the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 18:37:36
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
If it's about the secret existence of Chapter "666" then the whole incident becomes even dumber as IG would just think they are Space Marines.
To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.]
Mantorok wrote: To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
What secrets? Shiny weapons? Psyker powers? Did the entire population of Armageddon stand by to watch the Grey Knights fight Angron?
I haven't read The Emperor's Gift so maybe there are details in there to make the purges justifiable. Otherwise the whole thing is still pretty dumb imo. Kill IG and civilians because they witnessed magical Chapter "666" in action - "one hundred and nine" terminators, banishing Angron for "hundred years and a day," with "only thirteen" surviving - reads like bad fan fic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 19:02:04
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Mantorok wrote: To be fair, when talking about GK, it's not about what the humans know.
It's about what secrets an agent of Chaos could cull from the simple guardmans memories.
What secrets? Shiny weapons? Psyker powers? Did the entire population of Armageddon stand by to watch the Grey Knights fight Angron?
I haven't read The Emperor's Gift so maybe there are details in there to make the purges justifiable. Otherwise the whole thing is still pretty dumb imo. Kill IG and civilians because they witnessed magical Chapter "666" in action - "one hundred and nine" terminators, banishing Angron for "hundred years and a day," with "only thirteen" surviving - reads like bad fan fic.
Pretty much all of 40k reads like a bad fanfic. If you're not a fan of that, don't read the fluff.
The guardsmen were at risk of corruption merely from being in the Daemon Primarch's presence. It is true that the mere presence of a standard daemon can drive lesser men insane, what does it say about one of the most highly exalted of their kind? There is a reason that over a tenth of the Grey Knights (who rarely deploy in the first place) were there to fight Angron - he's a massive threat.
Imagine if the Inquisition hadn't been there that day. I can pretty much bet that ALL of Armageddon's population, and a hell of a lot more Space Furries, would be dead. More than what would've been culled by the Inquisition's safeguard.
Yet, wise Grimnar forgets all the knowledge he should know as a Chapter Master of a First Founding Chapter and decides that the Inquisition are just overexaggerating to the presence of a literal Warp conduit and chosen son of Khorne.
Pretty much all of 40k reads like a bad fanfic. If you're not a fan of that, don't read the fluff.
If you think Grey Knight fluff is the best 40k has to offer, then I really don't know what to say.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
EngulfedObject wrote: Don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm simply saying Grimnar probably didn't realize the Inquisition would exterminatus several planets over a few troop transports carrying IG that happened to fight Chaos, since the average citizen is well aware of the existence of Chaos (as you argued in this same thread) and IG regularly fight Chaos.
It wasn't the 'knowledge of Chaos' that the transports were destroyed for, it was the fact that the guardsmen almost certainly had daemonic timebombs sitting in their heads.
Where did I say he was a good guy? Implying the Inquisition was simply doing what was necessary and Grimnar is to blame is a rather flawed argument, seeing how the IG transports that escaped didn't lead to an outbreak of Chaos corruption.
To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition
So I guess that's where you said he was a good guy - by telling us that Bacon was right... and actually, you have no idea if those transports led to corruption spreading or not. We're not given that information - but the Inquisition must have tracked them all down somehow.
Oh and I'll get back to you on the Tau script looks like Necron script (it doesn't) thing when I have the time.
I hardly said they were identical. Necron script is based on straight lines, mathematically perfect arcs and circles, and precise 45 degree and 90 degree angles. Tau script is based on straight lines and mathematically precise 90 degree angles, with one example of a perfect circle on the zero.
Compare these;
Spoiler:
with this;
Spoiler:
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
Chaos is inherently evil because they are a manifestation of all that is bad in the material realm, the actions of sentient races fed them to the point they are at. To say they aren't evil because they had no choice in the matter is wrong.
So yes Chaos is literally a manifestation of evil. Yes the Imperium sucks, but they aren't inherently evil, I wouldn't even say they are evil just pragmatic.
Who would I rather win? fething Imperium of course, because at least life goes on with that path. Seriously people need to quit trying to invert a factions alignment, you can tell at a glance who is better.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
That's the thing, they were not born evil, they were not born, hence the neverborn, they don't exist, they have never existed and yet, they are, they have no opertunity to ever be more than they are as they do not exist, they are literally formless until emotions are projected upon them or ideas and preconceptions, the thing with the warp is that it does not exist, but it's still there, once sentient creatures became aware, they inherently damaged the realm of the warp, so these formless benign pieces of anti energy started to become something from nothing, but still remained... Nothing, it's a hard concept to grasp I grant you, but only something that can choose, can be inherently evil, I don't consider wasps evil because they sting me, it's not something they choose to do on a intellectual level, it's something they must do to defend themselves.
It's entirely possible that the chaos gods are the warps inherent defence against sentient creatures, it's sick, and that sickness manifests in a force that is trying to cure itself by killing the very thing making it sick.
Remember that before the lesser sentient races existed the warp was calm, benign and freely traveled, it wasn't until the old ones started to meddle with it that it started to "fight back" manifesting gods and deamons, perhaps the warp manifested gods of order at first to try to aid the sentient races, to live with them and guide them, but this ultimately failed, this is why all the gods of order are dead, so it changed tack, manifested gods of disorder to speed the destruction of the sentient races and thus, heal itself and bring back the calm.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
"You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either." - I reckon that's a highly debatable point. Also, extending your dog analogy: If it bits somebody once, it cannot be 'evil' in the same way that leading a blind person once doesn't make it good. It's the repeated actions which make it 'good' or 'evil'. Same concept here in 40K. As I said, if nothing else: Evil Is As Evil Does.
I also disagree with your position on daemons, but that's a little off topic if you ask me. As for Nurgle, showing car for your subjects and being good (or at least being not evil) don't have to go hand in hand. And as far as Slaanesh and Khorne having no interests in the concepts of good and evil, that doesn't preclude them from being either; it just means they don't care.
urbanknight4 wrote: Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
Chaos, as an elemental force, is not evil. Chaos is composed of all of the energies that mortals project into the Warp. This includes everything "good" (honor, valor, joy, etc.) and everything "bad" (anger, hatred, jealousy, lust, etc.). For the purpose of this post, we will refer to the two as "positive" (the former) and "negative" (the latter) energies.
Spoiler:
When a mortal dies, his/her/its soul is cut loose from the body and set adrift in the Warp. As the soul drifts around in the Warp, it slowly breaks down into it constituent energies; being both positive and negative. Those energies most similar to eachother, such as a warrior's courage and martyr's bravery, coalesce. As time goes on, they form whirlpools of energy. As warriors, with their powerful feelings of anger, bravery, and killing fervor, coalesce together, the current warriors might be particularly violent. These especially violent warriors' energies will come together with the murderers', then. Eventually, enough energy coalesces to form a sentience. Now, this sentient incorporates everything the violent parts of those warriors had - the honor, the rage, the hatred, and the bravery in equal measures. This sentience can now utilize the energy it is composed of; expending in order to acquire more (much as real-life organisms do). These sentiences can "consume" other energies by incorporating them into themselves; thereby becoming more powerful. As time goes on, more and more souls come into these sentiences; eventually providing them with enough power to interact with the Materium. As these warriors' souls reach a critical mass, they become a God of war; Khorne. This is how a God is formed.
When you worship a God, you essentially promise your soul to it. In this manner, you can eventually become a Daemon Prince (by having power bestowed upon you) or just Khorne's fingernail in his ethereal manifestation. This is why Gods are constantly trying to get people to worship them; it gives them massive increases in power.
Gods also gain power from the basic energies mortals give off when their alive (for instance, every time you feel rage, you're feeding Khorne).
Now, it is important to remember that Chaos Entities generally incorporate a variety of attributes. The reasoning for this being that they 1.) are composed of entire portions of souls, and souls are incredibly diverse (just look at the bewildering amount of traits a single human mind can have) 2.) consume other entities' energies; thereby changing their own makeup and personality. Therefore, Khorne would very likely have incorporated a sense of Martial Honor from the many soldiers he incorporated - which he has completely and utterly ignored in favor of taking skulls from anyone and everyone. Therefore, Khorne is "evil"; for he has cast aside his sense of right and wrong in favor of utter gluttony regarding war "Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, so long as it flows."
If we look at Slaanesh, Slaanesh represents sensation in all its forms; pleasure, pain, etc. She does not represent love in any way, shape or form. Slaanesh is sensuality incarnate; mistaking that for love is a grave mistake. Never - not once - has Slaanesh ever shown an iota of love for anyone, nor have her followers. Whenever you feel an intense sensation (pain, for instance), the energies you give off will feed Slaanesh. Of course, Slaanesh consumed the vast majority of the Eldar Pantheon, so she's also partially the God of whatever they were (outside of War, Life, and Joy/Laughter/trickery; the first went full C'tan shard, the second belongs to Nurgle, the third escaped Chaos entirely). I suppose, in a way, Slaanesh is the God of Eldar. Slaanesh isn't necessarily "evil" (she's literally the product of ten millenia of non-stop orgies), but her followers definitely are; they cast aside any morality that they had in favor of following the way of rape, torture, and doing everything you can for your next high at the expense of others.
I've already gone over Khorne, but suffice it to say that any intense anger or rage feeds him, and any Martial energies you give off will feed him. Also, he's a dick.
Tzeentch represents hope, change and magic. I don't know too much about Tzeentch, so I don't really know any of his more recessive traits, but these 3 seem to be his big ones. I'd say that he's one of the lesser evils, here, though that doesn't change the fact that he leaves behind his whole "hope" thing with virtually every change he brings about (seems like he brings about more despair than anything).
Last, but sure as hell not least, we come to Nurgle. Nurgle is, perhaps, the only Chaos God that isn't, in any way, "evil". Sure, he spreads disease and pestilence, but he's just doing it to expand his family. With every life he takes, he incorporates another soul into himself, and creates another Daemon. His followers refer to him as "papa Nurgle", and seem to genuinely love eachother. He could be considered the god of disease, pestilence, decay and paternal love.
tl;dr, Chaos isn't evil, but its current manifestation is. The current followers of Chaos are corrupted to the core with negative energies, and wreak evil for evil's sake (except for Nurgle's followers; they just want more bros). Slaanesh's followers and Daemons are raping and murdering for the sake of murdering and raping and finding the next high - all at the expense of someone else. Khorne's followers are murdering and pillaging for the sake of killing - all at the expense of others. Tzeentch's followers are bringing down worlds butchering billions for the sake of change - all at the expense of others. If they didn't know any better, then it would be different, but they do know better. They're human beings who cast aside morality and righteousness for their sorry states of being, and there is no viable excuse for them.
Source(s): Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, Lexicanum, False Gods, Fear to Tread, Fulgrim, a bunch of other novels and codices involving Chaos
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 04:04:27
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
You don't get to wave aside the evil/goodness of a sentient being just because they were made evil/good.
Each Daemon makes a choice at each step on what to do. To say Tzeentch's follower's butcher for change is laughable. There are plenty of ways to change things for the better or in a non-violent fashion, something those daemons never do. To not care about the expense of others for the end goal of satisfying yourself is itself evil.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
I don't know about that. I think I prefer the explanation in a certain animated movie coming out next year.
"It is arrogant to assume it is evil just because it was born to be evil. Is it not love that allows a life to be born into the world?"
Daemons do desire to be made manifest in the material world. They're unreality trying to be real. Depending on certain philosophical viewpoints, existence is the highest form of good. And non-existence is evil unto itself.
"There's no crime in a baby even if it's born evil."
Think of the birth of the Chaos Gods
"Yes, their nature is evil. They were made that way after all. They were born to be evil from the very beginning. They're not like people. These are pure deities that people made. But we know exactly how they think about it."
"If the Chaos Gods consider their actions evil and agonizes over them, or considers them good and laughs about them. We know which of the two is true."
"If they have emotions like that of a human and agonizes over what they do, they are evil."
"But if they have no doubt about their existence, they are good. They were made that way by the collective unconscious of sentient beings after all. If they have no doubt about their function, they cannot be evil."
The only answer to be found is if Chaos succeeds. Would they be able to forgive themselves after destroying and losing everything? That's what I would like to know.
I want to know if it's a crime to live as you are, when you are different from others and could only do what others perceive as evil.
Formosa wrote: No chaos isn't inherently evil, in the same way JAWS isn't evil, its a fish, fish cant be evil, we as sentient creatures assign traits that we believe to be evil to it, thing with the warp is, once you decide to assign these traits to the warp, it starts popping out "evil" creatures, the warp isn't chaos and chaos isn't the warp, one is part of the other, without the warp, there is no chaos, without chaos, the warp still exists, its a case that once sentient creatures started to project their minds into the warp, that it would be damaged, chaos is a symptom of that damage.
If nothing else, it could still be very reasonably argued that Chaos are still evil because of their actions. As the saying goes: 'Evil is as evil does'. So even if you argue that the Ruinous Powers and the Force of Chaos are not evil by nature, they are still evil by action.
You have to understand the concepts of good and evil in order to be either. A dog isn't evil because it bites someone, nor is it good because it leads the blind, it just does what it has been conditioned to do. The entities in the Warp are formed from pure emotion and power, and the vast majority of daemons don't seem to have enough self awareness to do anything beyond what their natural impulse is. A Slaaneshi daemon will try to take things to excess, a Khornate one will try to murder you. That certainly makes them dangerous and not something you'd want to be around, but no more evil than a swarm of hornets or a cloud of chlorine. The gods are certainly sentient, but are they evil? Nurgle seems to genuinely care for his followers, and if Khorne and Slaanesh are anything like their followers the concepts of good and evil hold no interest whatsoever for them.
Daemons weren't conditioned to do anything, they weren't born pure and innocent only to be shaped into a horrific killing machine by a malevolent influence. They're born evil (if you can call that birth), from evil, and do evil as soon as they live.
That's the thing, they were not born evil, they were not born, hence the neverborn, they don't exist, they have never existed and yet, they are, they have no opertunity to ever be more than they are as they do not exist, they are literally formless until emotions are projected upon them or ideas and preconceptions, the thing with the warp is that it does not exist, but it's still there, once sentient creatures became aware, they inherently damaged the realm of the warp, so these formless benign pieces of anti energy started to become something from nothing, but still remained... Nothing, it's a hard concept to grasp I grant you, but only something that can choose, can be inherently evil, I don't consider wasps evil because they sting me, it's not something they choose to do on a intellectual level, it's something they must do to defend themselves.
It's entirely possible that the chaos gods are the warps inherent defence against sentient creatures, it's sick, and that sickness manifests in a force that is trying to cure itself by killing the very thing making it sick.
Remember that before the lesser sentient races existed the warp was calm, benign and freely traveled, it wasn't until the old ones started to meddle with it that it started to "fight back" manifesting gods and deamons, perhaps the warp manifested gods of order at first to try to aid the sentient races, to live with them and guide them, but this ultimately failed, this is why all the gods of order are dead, so it changed tack, manifested gods of disorder to speed the destruction of the sentient races and thus, heal itself and bring back the calm.
Yep... That's how my brain works....
I wpuld spoiler the quotes, but I'm on my phone.
Your argument liiens daemons to the human immune system. I like it. We do not consider ourselves evil when we enact the genocide of quadrillions of bacterium.
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Quickjager wrote: You don't get to wave aside the evil/goodness of a sentient being just because they were made evil/good.
Each Daemon makes a choice at each step on what to do. To say Tzeentch's follower's butcher for change is laughable. There are plenty of ways to change things for the better or in a non-violent fashion, something those daemons never do. To not care about the expense of others for the end goal of satisfying yourself is itself evil.
No one has made a proper argument as why Chaos is not evil. So far all that has been said is "It is not their fault they were made that way", which doesn't matter because they were made evil.
40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/20 09:05:08
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
Selym wrote: 40k's Chaos isn't a thing like humans are. It is a reflection of the universe. We don't call our mirror images evil when we kill someone.
But our reflections in the mirror can't act independently. Chaos might be a reflection of all life in the galaxy, but they can act independently.
This is a mirror you can walk into, it's not quite as simple. While Chaos at higher levels has sentience, it is limited in the directions it can take.
If the universe were nicer, and the races stopped fighting, Khorne would die. He would likey be replaced by a god of diplomacy and charisma.
So what is the point you're making? The mirror metaphor doesn't work here really.
My point is that the actions of chaos are controlled by other species. It has no preference of actions, but must reflect the actions and emotions of physica beings. Thus proving that while Chaos can be harsh, it cannot be evil.
At War With Fate? Maybe I am and maybe I'm not... 
