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GW obviously have alienated a significant number of former fantasy fans with AoS.

Clearly it isn't going to become the kind of game that can replace WHFB the way that WHFB was played. There isn't going to be an official points system.

If your enjoyment of the game relies on an official points system, it's time to find a different game to play. There are various good alternatives, including Kings of War, Hordes of The Things, and Dragon Rampant.

I hope they don't go with an official points system. I like freewheeling games that require a bit of self regulation (alien concept maybe), but AoS has more problems than just the points or lack of.

auticus wrote:

Selling a system that requires talking to your opponent has also gone over poorly because the market doesn't want that. They don't want to talk to their opponent. They want to roll up to a game, deploy, play, go home without potentially having to say a single word.

Now that is a truly sad state of affairs. If that is "the market" for current GW, then I'm out.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

auticus wrote:

Selling a system that requires talking to your opponent has also gone over poorly because the market doesn't want that. They don't want to talk to their opponent. They want to roll up to a game, deploy, play, go home without potentially having to say a single word.

Now that is a truly sad state of affairs. If that is "the market" for current GW, then I'm out.

I hope he's just talking about GW's market. If he's talking about the hobby at large, he's definitely wrong, and it's the kind of "kids these days" statement I'd expect from some grognard on TMP rather than Dakka.

Look at any polls.

My observation on the polls has been strongly toward a system where there is no negotiation, a global ruleset with no comp, that caters primarily to pick up games. Tournaments benefit indirectly as tournaments are basically a chain of pick up games over the course of a day or two.

When I say not having to say a single word I don't mean that most people want to not actually talk to their opponent, but that for all intents and purposes the conversation that they hold does not have to be about what type of rules they are playing and on anything else.

Do you find that the majority of players want to negotiate rules and don't care about pick up games?

I personally don't mind the negotiation part. However the vast bulk of my community does not want to negotiate, they want to play RAW. The AOS players in my area, which has gone up in number, also primarily want to play RAW with no comp, no points, just throw models down now because thats the official way to do it, but the divide in the community is that the other half want points but don't want to use user-comp, they want official points, so they play other things (Kings of War died, there is currently no fantasy system in my area now other than the AOS players... everyone else migrated to Infinity, Armada, X Wing, and now Gates of Antares)

I find it to be a social hobby, based around mutual enjoyment of the game with your counterpart on the other side of the table.

The scenario you describe of "turn up, play, shaddup, leave" holds no appeal for my hobby.

I also make no claim to speak for the "majority" of players. Put the same poll on 10 different places and you'll get ten different sets of results.

Thats' just it though. The polls that have been about the negotiation phase have all universally been very much against having to negotiate. They haven't had a mixture of results at all.

auticus wrote:
Thats' just it though. The polls that have been about the negotiation phase have all universally been very much against having to negotiate. They haven't had a mixture of results at all.

And have these polls been sent out to a variety of forums, people and blogs or just in the usual echo chambers?

They've been everywhere. From forums to facebook groups. Of course nothing is scientifically proven or adequate but the anti-negotiation phase has been stronger in every place BUT the fan pages (if you go to a fb fan page and ask if its a big deal, you'll get a more evenly split answer as opposed to anywhere else)

Its enough to make me conclude based off of the little evidence we can get that most people who play these games don't want to negotiate what ruleset they are using and instead want to just show up and play.

Its also a common topic in other games that are not GW - as they are usually comparing their game with 40k or AOS. Infinity and XWing forums both have this come up from time to time, and of course this is a common thread in a kings of war forum.

That people continue to rant against AOS now, coming on eight months after release is intriguing and that its a semi common topic on NON gw forums/pages is also intriguing.

Theres a lot of raw, embittered, unable to move on, ex WFB players still out there, I suppose.

Oddly, my own WFB books and armies didn't seem to immolate at the same time as the WFB world did, so I don't personally have much of a problem with AoS replacing it.

If it brings new or younger blood in with a more relaxed attitude towards negotiating a game between opponents and getting some enjoyment out of the whole hobby, then that is only a positive.

I agree with you. I'm just stating the perceived state of the overall community in terms of what the perceived majority wants out of a game.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Theres a lot of raw, embittered, unable to move on, ex WFB players still out there, I suppose.

Oddly, my own WFB books and armies didn't seem to immolate at the same time as the WFB world did, so I don't personally have much of a problem with AoS replacing it.

If it brings new or younger blood in with a more relaxed attitude towards negotiating a game between opponents and getting some enjoyment out of the whole hobby, then that is only a positive.

What kids going to pay GW prices? I'm an old fart but I remember when pocket money could buy you something nowadays there's very little under £20.

Kids don't have money except Xmas and birthdays and I don't know many that will pick unassembled minis over a game.

For the cost of one army you can buy a decent pc or a console with several games, both offer more than just games as well these days they let you watch bluerays and several streaming services as well as access to the web.

GW is going after a demographic with no interest in their product the "Apple generation" who'll Que days for a new phone look down on wargaming.

As for a more relaxed game that's not gonna happen no points just leaves the game open to abuse intentional or not.

Those embittered players have every reason to be embittered, they got screwed hard and summarily dumped. even prostitutes get better treatment. So yeah, I get the bitter, loyalty got flushed, and while no their books and models werent destroyed, we all know what happens to OOP games. they are dead. AoS may not be a total failure ( where I am it most certainly is, with only our 1 gw even allowing it in their store, but that gw is likely to close down soon, due to a combo of terrible location, garbage staff and numerous non game related issues) but it did break the whfb community, and gw better pay attention, TSR and FASA were both larger titans than GW, and they both went extinct for exactly this kind of stuff. had GW given a heads up that AoS was going to be a radical departure before dropping it on the world at large, it might have won some good will, but GW is awful at customer relations in that way and more and more do not have a finger on the pulse. 5 years ago we had several stores that carried gw ranges, played gw games, and actively promoted it, now, its just one sad little gw store. they most certainly can go bankrupt if they arent careful. rant over.

Finished?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Finished?

More or less, but just remember, your next. only a matter of time before your game gets dropped just the same as theirs.

And what is "my game" exactly?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
And what is "my game" exactly?

Any game out there. There are very few games that are still their original. some have been passed around more than others. This is a hobby that overwhelmingly relies on word of mouth and older players getting newer ones in, GW specifically has missed the point on that. Alienating a large base of players is not a good idea, being smug about it is even worse, look at 4th ed D&D as a good example, that debacle nearly killed D&D and gave Pathfinder the #1 slot it has yet to relinquish.

hobojebus wrote:

What kids going to pay GW prices? I'm an old fart but I remember when pocket money could buy you something nowadays there's very little under £20.

Kids don't have money except Xmas and birthdays and I don't know many that will pick unassembled minis over a game.

I've seen this argument a lot of times. In the context of the accessibility of the game, I've got a couple of questions:

1. On average, how much pocket money do parents in the UK give their children each month (or day, whatever)?
1. How much does an everyday commodity like a bus ticket, a loaf of bread, a can of beer, a cup of coffee etc. cost?

I'm asking this because it never ceases to amaze me how I can afford GW's miniatures, while living in a third world country, and so many hobbyists on the internet are moaning that GW's prices are driving them into the ground. I get that they are somewhat more expensive than other miniatures, but still...

I mean, GW's primary market is in the UK. The hobby was virtually build for the UK player and is somewhat priced in accordance to the quality of life there. How is this an issue?

 CoreCommander wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

What kids going to pay GW prices? I'm an old fart but I remember when pocket money could buy you something nowadays there's very little under £20.

Kids don't have money except Xmas and birthdays and I don't know many that will pick unassembled minis over a game.

I've seen this argument a lot of times. In the context of the accessibility of the game, I've got a couple of questions:

1. On average, how much pocket money do parents in the UK give their children each month (or day, whatever)?
1. How much does an everyday commodity like a bus ticket, a loaf of bread, a can of beer, a cup of coffee etc. cost?

I'm asking this because it never ceases to amaze me how I can afford GW's miniatures, while living in a third world country, and so many hobbyists on the internet are moaning that GW's prices are driving them into the ground. I get that they are somewhat more expensive than other miniatures, but still...

I mean, GW's primary market is in the UK. The hobby was virtually build for the UK player and is somewhat priced in accordance to the quality of life there. How is this an issue?

I wouldn't consider Bulgaria a third world country, especially compared to the UK.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
And what is "my game" exactly?

Any game out there. There are very few games that are still their original. some have been passed around more than others. This is a hobby that overwhelmingly relies on word of mouth and older players getting newer ones in, GW specifically has missed the point on that. Alienating a large base of players is not a good idea, being smug about it is even worse, look at 4th ed D&D as a good example, that debacle nearly killed D&D and gave Pathfinder the #1 slot it has yet to relinquish.

Well, considering I'm a Napoleonics player with multiple sides from various manufacturers and aren't tied to any particular ruleset, excuse me if I don't lose any sleep

 thekingofkings wrote:

I wouldn't consider Bulgaria a third world country, especially compared to the UK.

Ok, second world country then . To add more fuel to the fire - British youngsters come to spend their summer vacation here because it is insanely cheap. The amount of money they are throwing makes me believe that they can certainly afford GW's prices - I've had this impression from other sources as well, but this is a direct observation so it must weigh a little more. I would post a three part video, explaining this summer migration, were it not unsuitable for younger audiences...

 CoreCommander wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

I wouldn't consider Bulgaria a third world country, especially compared to the UK.

Ok, second world country then . To add more fuel to the fire - British youngsters come to spend their summer vacation here because it is insanely cheap. I would post a three part video, explaining this summer migration, were it not unsuitable for younger audiences...

There is that and that when you compare beaches like Maldon, UK to anywhere on the Black Sea coast...well yeah. grab that plane and go. Hell I would rather be there than SoCal or Florida.

Rent and food cost a lot more in the UK. Rent is especially high in the South East and London.

When I was working there as a teacher, after I'd paid for my rent in a crappy flat in a bad part of town and my transport costs (which were really high as well) I didn't have much at all left over for luxuries.

 Da Boss wrote:
Rent and food cost a lot more in the UK. Rent is especially high in the South East and London.

When I was working there as a teacher, after I'd paid for my rent in a crappy flat in a bad part of town and my transport costs (which were really high as well) I didn't have much at all left over for luxuries.

Oh yeah, rent was obscene.

Cost of living is very high in the UK.

http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/financial-planning/pocket-money-averaging-5-75-a-week/

Cheapest units you can buy for AoS are probably the individual special character clam shells, which are £9 and up. (Seraphons start at £15.)

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Cost of living is very high in the UK.

http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/financial-planning/pocket-money-averaging-5-75-a-week/

Cheapest units you can buy for AoS are probably the individual special character clam shells, which are £9 and up. (Seraphons start at £15.)

Thanks for that. To be honest, I knew that rent and transport costs were relatively high in the UK, but I had no idea that youngsters get that amount of money per week. I imagined it more in the line of 10 quid a day.

Oh yes, transport costs are ridiculous. My daily commute to work would be £15 if I bought it on the day, and my season ticket only makes it a fraction cheaper. That's the price of a Warhammer Fantasy regiment box almost every day!

I think GW is still well within the realms of pocket money. that link states the average 12-15 year old is getting £7 a week, £28-35 a month. That's a box set every month, or a character + paints, as well as Birthdays and Christmases to get the "big stuff". In fact seems more affordable than it was for me when I was a kid!

 CoreCommander wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

What kids going to pay GW prices? I'm an old fart but I remember when pocket money could buy you something nowadays there's very little under £20.

Kids don't have money except Xmas and birthdays and I don't know many that will pick unassembled minis over a game.

I've seen this argument a lot of times. In the context of the accessibility of the game, I've got a couple of questions:

1. On average, how much pocket money do parents in the UK give their children each month (or day, whatever)?
1. How much does an everyday commodity like a bus ticket, a loaf of bread, a can of beer, a cup of coffee etc. cost?

I'm asking this because it never ceases to amaze me how I can afford GW's miniatures, while living in a third world country, and so many hobbyists on the internet are moaning that GW's prices are driving them into the ground. I get that they are somewhat more expensive than other miniatures, but still...

I mean, GW's primary market is in the UK. The hobby was virtually build for the UK player and is somewhat priced in accordance to the quality of life there. How is this an issue?

Pocket money your looking at £5-10 a week if you get an allowance at all.

Dunno about elsewhere if I want a return trip to town 6 miles away I'm paying £5, a loaf is £1 near enough that for a cup of tea over for that for a bottle of pop.

Bear in mind minimum wage is only just going up to £7.50 this year, one hours work won't buy you a model if your young and have a crap job.

So yeah £700 for an army is a major investment and few parents will buy into gw stuff because they know the kid won't stick with it and the models will sit in a box.

It's not like the 90`s we don't need a game store to meet up with friends we can communicate in so many different ways and play games online easily together.

Kids don't need to spend anywhere near £700 on an army. £75 on Age of Sigmar or Dark Vengence and you've got an army for yourself and a brother/friend to play with.

Only difference for kids nowadays is you don't get loads of useable card scenery anymore, which is a real shame.

The cost of units is a bit off the topic, though.

Yep we did derail.

What AoS really desperately needs is to be taken seriously as a game until that point it'll never catch on.

Gamers want balance more than anything a chance at a fair fight where skill not your bank balance decides things.