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 Traditio wrote:


Except, they're not. My tactical marines' bolters can't hurt carnifexes or wraithlords on 4s. They can't even hurt wraithknights on 6s.

And my Splinter rifles can't hurt AV 10 vehicles in 6's or T3 on 3's. There are trade offs to everything. I didn't shelve my Dark Eldar because I am a bad Dark Eldar player, I've shelved them because I actively can't keep up with my friends armies unless I went 100% gimmick list e.g Corpsethief Claw which as it happens I've recently learned is a bad idea. The themes I enjoyed the army for where fire power and speed, but now we have little firepower to show for it and we aren't noteworthy in speed. Jinking may not actively be movement, but to me at least it fit the theme. So many armours have a plathora of ignores cover or medium str/high rof weaponry raiders get shredded by the dozen.

I would agree with you that Dark Eldar weren't bad in general, back in 6th we could use them quite effectively. And even the new codex was more of a sidegrade than an upgrade since it removed so many of our special rules (fun fact, we only as 5 unique special rules associated with the units, 3 of which are dodge) but we could still be run in a similar way. That hasn't changed much, its the competition and the changes to the core mechanics that have shelved the army. Not that it matters, the end result is the same.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The new Genestealer cult downgraded GSC to allies of convenience to Tyranids, which i agree stops possible telepathy abuse but it also 100% invalidates my army.

I was really excited to run a 100% infiltrating vanguard nid list, Broodkin alongside manufactorum alongside deathleapers brood. But as Allies of convenience infiltrators treat other infiltrators as enemy units, meaning they must be 18'' away from each other if they can see each other :( Just spent like £200 on space hulk genestealers and lictors and the like and on a students salary that is all my warhammer for a while, unusable. That'll teach me to get excited about a fluff themed army...

It just seems to unnecessarily restrictive, and I get the feeling they didn't even consider the ramifications of the change.

If you base your entire army list and purchases around a "one trick pony" idea, you really only have yourself to blame when the meta shifts or an FAQ/Errata invalidates your one trick. Had you built a more balanced list, you'd be fine right now.

I feel for you, but let this be a lesson for the future.

 Kriswall wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The new Genestealer cult downgraded GSC to allies of convenience to Tyranids, which i agree stops possible telepathy abuse but it also 100% invalidates my army.

I was really excited to run a 100% infiltrating vanguard nid list, Broodkin alongside manufactorum alongside deathleapers brood. But as Allies of convenience infiltrators treat other infiltrators as enemy units, meaning they must be 18'' away from each other if they can see each other :( Just spent like £200 on space hulk genestealers and lictors and the like and on a students salary that is all my warhammer for a while, unusable. That'll teach me to get excited about a fluff themed army...

It just seems to unnecessarily restrictive, and I get the feeling they didn't even consider the ramifications of the change.

If you base your entire army list and purchases around a "one trick pony" idea, you really only have yourself to blame when the meta shifts or an FAQ/Errata invalidates your one trick. Had you built a more balanced list, you'd be fine right now.

I feel for you, but let this be a lesson for the future.

I don't understand you, what constitutes a 1 trick poney list? Why is 100% infiltrating different from Deepstriking different from drop pods different from reserves? They are all alternative deployment types. Also let me ask you, have you seen many balanced tyranid lists? Ones that don't rely on 2-3 Flyrants? Had I built a more balanced list I would've been shoe horned into the only other viable tyranid list there is. The White Dwarf specifically noted that GSC were treated as tyranids for the allies matrix, was I meant to of expected them to change this? ''Ha, psych! This army we brought out specifically to be Tyranid allies aren't actually good allies anymore! We sure got you!''. I wasn't relying on some flimsy loophole, I was relying the White Dwarf meaning what they say and not changing the rules after people had bought the models with no basis for the rules change.

In my opinion at least, battle brothers using each others Transports was a gimmick, my Dark Eldar shooting full bs out of transports was a gimmick (although it greatly helped a flagging army) but actively changing ally status to one that impeeds infiltration when the *entire* point of the GSC is to infiltrate isn't fixing a gimmick but rather a breach of trust and shows a startling lack of insight into there own rules. Unless of course you believe the Broodlord being effected by the Shadow in the Warp is intentional as well...

Technically, if GSC are treated as Tyranids for the purpose of allying, then they shouldn't even have been in an army with Tyranids; a Faction cannot ally with itself.

That said, Genestealer Cult units could have been taken in a Tyranid regular detachment, if they were indeed the same faction...


....it's less of a 'loophole' and more of GW not being clear in their White Dwarf article. It's certainly unclear to me based on what I have heard!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Technically, if GSC are treated as Tyranids for the purpose of allying, then they shouldn't even have been in an army with Tyranids; a Faction cannot ally with itself.

Welcome to 7th edition, you must be new here.

nekooni wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Technically, if GSC are treated as Tyranids for the purpose of allying, then they shouldn't even have been in an army with Tyranids; a Faction cannot ally with itself.

Welcome to 7th edition, you must be new here.

It's true, the Allied Detachment specifically says that it must be a different faction from the primary detachment.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Technically, if GSC are treated as Tyranids for the purpose of allying, then they shouldn't even have been in an army with Tyranids; a Faction cannot ally with itself.

Welcome to 7th edition, you must be new here.

It's true, the Allied Detachment specifically says that it must be a different faction from the primary detachment.

Allied detachment is not only way to ally.

CAD of blood angels, CAD of tau. Hey presto you have alliance of blood angel and tau.

Or CAD of blood angels and the 5 battlewagon formation from orks. Alliance of BA and orks(lol)

You can even repeat CADs, so that technically is an alliance of the same faction.

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you exclude the big units then poison weapons are just bolters (and, in fact, worse than bolters against T3 infantry). And haven't you complained an awful lot about how your bolter tactical marines aren't good enough?

Except, they're not. My tactical marines' bolters can't hurt carnifexes or wraithlords on 4s. They can't even hurt wraithknights on 6s.

Whilst your point may be true, read what Peregrine says.

"If you exclude the big units..."

Tell me, how is Peregrine's restraint different to yours? You decry his restraint, and then impose your own.

Bolters are actually a fair bit stronger as they can actually damage lightly armoured vehicles (only needing 3 6s to kill most vehicles like it) and such bolters can be improved in the vanilla SM codex by none other that your own Crimson Fist/Imperial Fist tactics, Ultramarine tactics (which are accessible in the Gladius) and Raptor tactics, to name but a few.

Bolters and Splinter weapons are both good weapons, with each having strengths over the other - and besides - you don't use bolters in the SM 'dex to kill MCs. You use grav or similar tools.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The new Genestealer cult downgraded GSC to allies of convenience to Tyranids, which i agree stops possible telepathy abuse but it also 100% invalidates my army.

I was really excited to run a 100% infiltrating vanguard nid list, Broodkin alongside manufactorum alongside deathleapers brood. But as Allies of convenience infiltrators treat other infiltrators as enemy units, meaning they must be 18'' away from each other if they can see each other :( Just spent like £200 on space hulk genestealers and lictors and the like and on a students salary that is all my warhammer for a while, unusable. That'll teach me to get excited about a fluff themed army...

It just seems to unnecessarily restrictive, and I get the feeling they didn't even consider the ramifications of the change.

If you base your entire army list and purchases around a "one trick pony" idea, you really only have yourself to blame when the meta shifts or an FAQ/Errata invalidates your one trick. Had you built a more balanced list, you'd be fine right now.

I feel for you, but let this be a lesson for the future.

I don't understand you, what constitutes a 1 trick poney list? Why is 100% infiltrating different from Deepstriking different from drop pods different from reserves? They are all alternative deployment types. Also let me ask you, have you seen many balanced tyranid lists? Ones that don't rely on 2-3 Flyrants? Had I built a more balanced list I would've been shoe horned into the only other viable tyranid list there is. The White Dwarf specifically noted that GSC were treated as tyranids for the allies matrix, was I meant to of expected them to change this? ''Ha, psych! This army we brought out specifically to be Tyranid allies aren't actually good allies anymore! We sure got you!''. I wasn't relying on some flimsy loophole, I was relying the White Dwarf meaning what they say and not changing the rules after people had bought the models with no basis for the rules change.

In my opinion at least, battle brothers using each others Transports was a gimmick, my Dark Eldar shooting full bs out of transports was a gimmick (although it greatly helped a flagging army) but actively changing ally status to one that impeeds infiltration when the *entire* point of the GSC is to infiltrate isn't fixing a gimmick but rather a breach of trust and shows a startling lack of insight into there own rules. Unless of course you believe the Broodlord being effected by the Shadow in the Warp is intentional as well...

The White Dwarf never said that GSC were Battle Brothers with Tyranids. Lots of people interpreted it that way. Lots of people didn't. What it actually said was that GSC allied in the same way as Tyranids. I interpreted that as they are Come the Apocalypse with everyone. Being Battle Brothers with Tyranids never made fluff sense. I can't see a Hive Tyrant bro-fisting a 3rd Gen Cultist. Not gonna happen. From a lore perspective, the GSC prepare a planet and then move on. They don't hang out for the biomass scouring. They'd never be fighting Marines side by side with Termagants, for example.

You interpreted a vague rule wrong and it bit you in the ass. Sucks, but that's a risk when you put all your eggs in one basket.

 Kriswall wrote:
From a lore perspective, the GSC prepare a planet and then move on. They don't hang out for the biomass scouring. They'd never be fighting Marines side by side with Termagants, for example.

Just feel like I need to point out that the GSC sticks around and waits to be eaten by the swarm. They're just more biomass for the alien beings they worship as gods. Sort of a Shadow Over Innsmouth vibe.

Fluff debates aside, I just think it's odd the AoC is the decision that was reached. No one, and I mean "no one", could have possibly interpreted "Ally exactly as Tyranids" to mean AoC.

*edited to correct my own negligence.*

 Kriswall wrote:
Being Battle Brothers with Tyranids never made fluff sense. I can't see a Hive Tyrant bro-fisting a 3rd Gen Cultist. Not gonna happen. From a lore perspective, the GSC prepare a planet and then move on. They don't hang out for the biomass scouring. They'd never be fighting Marines side by side with Termagants, for example.

Sigh. Battle Brothers does not literally mean 'brofists and cuddlefests'.

You harp on about fluff sense, try to apply that here but apply it nowhere else.

Let's look at some OTHER Battle Brother factions shall we?

Dark Eldar and Eldar - hmm, hard to see the Farseer brofisting the Archon who just opened up the psychic torture box that brainfethed half the field. Hard to see Drazhar and Karandras having a casual cup of tea together. And yet, these factions are Battle Brothers. Crazy, huh?

Armies of the Imperium - OH BOY. Buckle up sonny, this is going to be fun.

Grey Knights/Inquisition and well...anyone - do you not know what happened after the First War for Armageddon? Where the Space Wolves very nearly kicked off another war because Standard Ordo Malleus Practices were NOT something they agreed with? What about the Grey Knights and Adepta Soritas? I should think the Sisters would NOT be willing to work well with people who slaughtered part of an Order just to wear their blood. Or Dark Angels? Pretty sure the sons of the Lion don't exactly play nicely with the Inquisition. Too many secrets. Flesh Tearers! Hey, everyone loves the Marines with a reputation for murdering everything in an uncontrolled frenzy, right?

Dark Angels and Space Wolves - Oh but they will work together - still one hell of an honour grudge there. I'd not say Battle Brothers in the slightest. But according to the Ally Matrix they are just that.

Black Templars and anyone who brings a psyker - Youre kidding, right?

And you're trying to apply FLUFF LOGIC to GSCs who tend to get psychically whammied when the Hive Fleet come in range. Their brood links get jacked by the Hive Mind and in the end they become frothing cults who die for the Hive Fleets, believing it's the will of their four armed fathers. You harp on about fluff but don't read any of the 2nd ed. Tyranid Codex...particularly the bit where it mentions reports of cults fighting side by side with the Tyrannic invades during Hive Fleet Kraken's invasion. GO READ THE ICHAR FLUFF AGAIN. Please.

And you also chose to interpret the rule as a git.

It specifically stated that ally 'as Tyranids'.

Look at the ally matrix. Tyranids are CTA with everyone apart from themselves.

The fact they specifically ally as Tyranids I'd interpret as 'count as Tyranids for the Matrix' - ie. CTA for everyone apart from Tyranids.

Otherwise they would have said they were Come the Apocalypse with all factions. No need to mention Tyranids at all to state that.

On the bright side, Battle Brothers isn't what it used to be with the draft FAQs. They may be fazing it out entirely.

Also, you seem to be a little high-strung there, DarkStarSabre. I agree with your assessment of Battle Brothers, but you're getting little worked up over this. Go for a walk, take a deep breath, maybe smoke a bowl or something. You sound like you're about to pop a blood vessel, man!

 EnTyme wrote:
On the bright side, Battle Brothers isn't what it used to be with the draft FAQs. They may be fazing it out entirely.

Also, you seem to be a little high-strung there, DarkStarSabre. I agree with your assessment of Battle Brothers, but you're getting little worked up over this. Go for a walk, take a deep breath, maybe smoke a bowl or something. You sound like you're about to pop a blood vessel, man!

Because unfortunately we live in a world where everyone is bubblewrapped so Darwin's law of natural selection is being artificially hampered, allowing people to have the same fething idiotic viewpoints regardless of the number of times they're told otherwise.

And this isn't high strung at all mate. This is perhaps flabbergasted at someone trying to tell me the fluff of a faction I first learned to play the game with back in second edition (and hell, the fluff even goes into Rogue Trader - Mind Slaves were a thing - Tyranid armies used to consist of GSC models, Screamer Killers, Zoats, Warriors, Squig Swarms and best of all a squad of IG, Orks or CSM as mind slaves).

No one cares

 Kriswall wrote:
The White Dwarf never said that GSC were Battle Brothers with Tyranids. Lots of people interpreted it that way. Lots of people didn't. What it actually said was that GSC allied in the same way as Tyranids. I interpreted that as they are Come the Apocalypse with everyone. Being Battle Brothers with Tyranids never made fluff sense. I can't see a Hive Tyrant bro-fisting a 3rd Gen Cultist. Not gonna happen. From a lore perspective, the GSC prepare a planet and then move on. They don't hang out for the biomass scouring. They'd never be fighting Marines side by side with Termagants, for example.

You interpreted a vague rule wrong and it bit you in the ass. Sucks, but that's a risk when you put all your eggs in one basket.

They are psychically mind controlled by hive mind same as termagaunts and when the war is done they will go to biomass collecting same as other tyranids.

They have no free will and are there controlled by hive mind same as termagaunt and carnifax.

Why would hive meet treat parts of itself separately to other parts? They are all organic biomass under its complete control. Hive mind is racist based on looks?

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Whilst your point may be true, read what Peregrine says.

"If you exclude the big units..."

Sure. Against marines, bolters and splinter rifles are basically equivalent.

Against everything else? Not so much.

Bolters are actually a fair bit stronger as they can actually damage lightly armoured vehicles (only needing 3 6s to kill most vehicles like it)

You can't really compare the six 6's that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithknight, or the one 4 that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithguard, to the three 6's a boltgun needs to kill a rhino at rear AV or a venom at any AV.

Practically speaking, it's just not comparable. It makes tactical sense to use dark eldar warriors to take out a unit of wraithguard. It makes no sense to try to bolter a venom to death.

Not to mention the fact that warriors cost far fewer points per model than a space marine.

Bolters and Splinter weapons are both good weapons, with each having strengths over the other - and besides - you don't use bolters in the SM 'dex to kill MCs. You use grav or similar tools.

Do pray tell, Sgt. Smudge, with what weapon are tyrranic war veterans armed?

Tone it down in here, folks. It's getting way too snarky for a discussion of toy soldiers.

 Traditio wrote:

Do pray tell, Sgt. Smudge, with what weapon are tyrranic war veterans armed?

Tyranid war veterans are traditionally armed with Boltguns and Heavy Bolters with Hellfire shells (which were invented for killing tyranid MCs).

How is this relevant to a discussion about Boltguns not being suitable for killing MCs? They aren't.

 Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Whilst your point may be true, read what Peregrine says.

"If you exclude the big units..."

Sure. Against marines, bolters and splinter rifles are basically equivalent.

Against everything else? Not so much.

Bolters are actually a fair bit stronger as they can actually damage lightly armoured vehicles (only needing 3 6s to kill most vehicles like it)

You can't really compare the six 6's that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithknight, or the one 4 that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithguard, to the three 6's a boltgun needs to kill a rhino at rear AV or a venom at any AV.

Practically speaking, it's just not comparable. It makes tactical sense to use dark eldar warriors to take out a unit of wraithguard. It makes no sense to try to bolter a venom to death.

Not to mention the fact that warriors cost far fewer points per model than a space marine.

quote]
You're right for once. Against many armies splinter rifles are actually worse than Bolters.

You can really. A tactical Marine can (currently at least) take down most vehicles at close range with grenades and can do a lot against AV10 by just rapid firing. Which does make sense in a lot of situations e.g. The Venom is at close range but you don't want to waste anti tank? Lot of bolter fire can try and kill it or get it to Jink.

Do you know why a Warrior costs so much less? It has T3 5+. A marine will actually survive being shot at. A warrior will not.

What amazes me is the ignorance to how most miniature/table top/card games function as a profit creator.

They are all designed to change over time, to force you to buy new stuff.

It blows my mind year after year when veterans are surprised their army is now trash tier or their units are now unplayable due to changes put in place to make you buy new stuff.

You get into one of these hobbies, you need to be aware that your 1000$ army isn't going to be at the same level of playablity in 3 years, or that your 500$ standard magic deck is going to change every 4 months until it gets invalidated completely when a few key cards cycle out.

This has nothing to do with 1 trick ponies or lynch pin units. This has to do with...

"How can we sell more Tyranids? Make a heavy support choice that has 9 warriors with venom cannons or barbed stranglers. Also, swarm armies will sell models"

"How can we sell more Tyranids? Get rid of that choice, and now make Carnifexes bad ass. Make Monstrous Creatures awesome. Also, weaken swarm armies so we can sell more Carnifexes."

"How can we sell more Tyranids? Make BETTER monstrous creatures and crap on the Carnifex, so people will buy these new, better monstrous creatures. Now we can bring back swarm armies, but you need to buy our new Monstrous Creatures to make best use of your mass models."

Orks did this with klans. Customize your orks, but eventually, no klans. But you can still use your unique boyz as regular shoota boyz!

Etc etc....

This is bog standard for these collectible hobbies. You will never spend 900$ for a finished army that will be the same forever. It will change, for better, or more often than not, worse.

 Traditio wrote:

Bolters are actually a fair bit stronger as they can actually damage lightly armoured vehicles (only needing 3 6s to kill most vehicles like it)

You can't really compare the six 6's that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithknight, or the one 4 that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithguard, to the three 6's a boltgun needs to kill a rhino at rear AV or a venom at any AV.

Practically speaking, it's just not comparable. It makes tactical sense to use dark eldar warriors to take out a unit of wraithguard. It makes no sense to try to bolter a venom to death.

6 6's to kill a WK? So you're expecting the Wraithknight to fail every single 3+ Sv then 5+ FnP? It actually takes 24 6's to kill a Wraithknight (6 wounds, 8 wounds with FnP, x3 due to 3+ Sv), and it still only takes 2 6's to kill a Venom. If it jinks, 3/4 and it's lost most of it's fire power. Sure a Splinter weapon treats a Wraithguard the same as it treats a Marine the same as it treats a Striking Scorpion, however the 3+ Sv negates a lot of the damage. That's what you pay for with Tacs, the 3+ Sv and the ATSKNF. If we put equal points Warriors against equal points of Marines it wouldn't even be a contest.

 BuFFo wrote:


They are all designed to change over time, to force you to buy new stuff.

It blows my mind year after year when veterans are surprised their army is now trash tier or their units are now unplayable due to changes put in place to make you buy new stuff.

Death watch overkill was released not even half a year ago and your assessment of Games workshops business practices has some flaws. How can you say GW actively changes there rules around to force you to buy new things when there have been countless occasions new models rules have been garbage? Warp Talons, Tau fliers, Mutilators, Tyranid Psychic Brain bug to name a few. If there aim is to make every new thing better to encourage everyone to buy it they haven't been very consistent with it.

Not to mention it makes no financial sense to make GSC unplayable, there is no analogous tyranid unit they should be trying to flog. In fact for many people the only reason people bought Genestealers recently was to supplement the GSC. So maybe you're right in general, ala Wraithknight or Riptide but in this instance you've not at all considered the actual change in queation.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The White Dwarf never said that GSC were Battle Brothers with Tyranids. Lots of people interpreted it that way. Lots of people didn't. What it actually said was that GSC allied in the same way as Tyranids. I interpreted that as they are Come the Apocalypse with everyone. Being Battle Brothers with Tyranids never made fluff sense. I can't see a Hive Tyrant bro-fisting a 3rd Gen Cultist. Not gonna happen. From a lore perspective, the GSC prepare a planet and then move on. They don't hang out for the biomass scouring. They'd never be fighting Marines side by side with Termagants, for example.

You interpreted a vague rule wrong and it bit you in the ass. Sucks, but that's a risk when you put all your eggs in one basket.

They are psychically mind controlled by hive mind same as termagaunts and when the war is done they will go to biomass collecting same as other tyranids.

They have no free will and are there controlled by hive mind same as termagaunt and carnifax.

Why would hive meet treat parts of itself separately to other parts? They are all organic biomass under its complete control. Hive mind is racist based on looks?

+1

Some people state 'some' genestealers attempt to escape the hive mind etc. Ignoring the fact, even in the most recent codex fluff it states "The Hive mind asserts its synaptic dominion over the Broodlord and its clan". From what I can tell the Hive Mind takes advantage of the Genesteales survival instinct and allows them to run away from the hive fleets, but when a planetary invasion starts it controls them directly. If that ain't battle brother I don't know what is.

Not to sound to snarky, but: I suppose this is why gimmick lists are generally bad ideas. Especially when they are based around poorly written, vague rules. Dark Eldar players are at the same point because 1) they no longer can squeeze a few extra inches out of their transports due to technicalities, and 2) they can no longer jink, and fire with full BS using their passengers. Both of which were pretty obviously bending rules and intended (not that the GSC thing was bending RAI)

 Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Whilst your point may be true, read what Peregrine says.

"If you exclude the big units..."

Sure. Against marines, bolters and splinter rifles are basically equivalent.

Against everything else? Not so much.

Exactly mine - and Peregrine's - point.
I'm not disputing that against their desired targets, Splinter Rifles are better than bolters.

However, that's like me saying that, because a bolter can reliably kill two grots compared to a lascannon's one, bolters are better than lascannons.

Bolters are actually a fair bit stronger as they can actually damage lightly armoured vehicles (only needing 3 6s to kill most vehicles like it)

You can't really compare the six 6's that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithknight, or the one 4 that a splinter rifle needs to kill a wraithguard, to the three 6's a boltgun needs to kill a rhino at rear AV or a venom at any AV.

Practically speaking, it's just not comparable. It makes tactical sense to use dark eldar warriors to take out a unit of wraithguard. It makes no sense to try to bolter a venom to death.

Not to mention the fact that warriors cost far fewer points per model than a space marine.

I'll let other people's arguments speak for this - the Wraithknight gets armour saves. Vehicles don't. All it takes is three bolter rounds rolling 6, and that Trukk is dead.
It takes 6 Splinter shards to pass the armour of the WK first to kill it.

Not to mention the "urgency" scenario - my AT is dealing with the targets it needs to. My bolters have already cleared their optimal targets, but can attempt to take out a weak vehicle that my heavy weapons would be wasted on.

Bolters and Splinter weapons are both good weapons, with each having strengths over the other - and besides - you don't use bolters in the SM 'dex to kill MCs. You use grav or similar tools.

Do pray tell, Sgt. Smudge, with what weapon are tyrranic war veterans armed?

Tyrannic War Veterans (which are UM only - good luck using them in any other Chapter Tactic) are equipped with poisoned rounds. Poisoned rounds which cannot bypass WK or Riptide armour. Grav can. Grav can be taken by all vanilla Chapters.
Incidentally, in the fluff, poisoned rounds are designed to deal with Tyranid MCs, with exposed flesh. Not Eldar or Tau ones, where there is no "flesh" to speak. Hence, Tyrannic War Veterans, and not Damocles Gulf Veterans.