What codex do you think is in dire need of an update?

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**Martel732**

pm713 wrote:
You know as well as I do Marines get WAY better in lore. You just like ignoring it Martel.

Maybe on the individual scale. But against energy weapons with huge outputs? 1000 guys wouldn't last a day. Once you start putting in titans and bombers and WMDs, being a movie marine wouldn't make any difference at all. Their lore makes no sense at all.

**SemperMortis**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
You know as well as I do Marines get WAY better in lore. You just like ignoring it Martel.

Maybe on the individual scale. But against energy weapons with huge outputs? 1000 guys wouldn't last a day. Once you start putting in titans and bombers and WMDs, being a movie marine wouldn't make any difference at all. Their lore makes no sense at all.

I am with Martel on this one. It really doesn't matter how elite you are, if a titan steps on you, your still dead no matter how many cool new organs you have.

**Melissia**

And yet there's very few stories of Marines getting killed en mass by being stepped on by titans. So clearly this is not the narrative GW wishes to establish for their legendary super-rare super-soldiers.

**SemperMortis**

Melissia wrote:
And yet there's very few stories of Marines getting killed en mass by being stepped on by titans. So clearly this is not the narrative GW wishes to establish for their legendary super-rare super-soldiers.

Well I actually know it happened fairly often in the Horus heresy books

but they don't put it in the other books because it makes for a really crappy story if the superheros all die ingloriously by getting squished like a bug, conversely, it makes for a great story if it is Nids, Chaos, Orks or DE getting stepped on by the gallant Knights or SMs.

**Melissia**

Also? Horus Heresy is not the same as 40k. They have very different narrative directions and are very different settings-- as different as, say, the fall of the Roman empire vs the World Wars.

**Pouncey**

Yeah, given the grimdark universe the 40k universe turned into 10k years after the Horus Heresy, Space Marines would generally be classed as Supervillains, not Superheroes.

Like everyone else.

**Crazyterran**

Clearly, Codex Space Marines need to be updated next. Grav Guns aren't standard issue yet and replacing the Boltgun, Gravcannons haven't replaced the heavy bolters on things, and we don't have chapter tactics for obscure chapters that everyone loves for some reason.

Help us GW, you are our only hope!

**Pouncey**

I think Squats could use a Codex update more badly than Sisters of Battle need new models.

**Melissia**

Squats need a codex to be updated in the first place

**Pouncey**

Melissia wrote:
Squats need a codex to be updated in the first place

They have one. It's just older than the original Sororitas sculpts.

**pm713**

Experiment 626 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Roknar wrote:
13 Black Crusades would want to disagree with you. They weren't individual attempts to take down the imperium. Abaddon has a plan and the imperium has no idea what that is and have been almost universally unable to stop him from executing it. And it would seem that now, finally, all that planning is coming to fruition and he is pushing for the end game. The imperium has never been more threatened than now...by chaos.

Hopefully, we'll see sisters get updates along side csm. If this is really to be the end times, all them heretics must be coming crawling out of their hidings and somebody has a lot of burning to do.

Those 12 Crusades that have done nothing significant... Abbadon got a special sword. Yippee.

The Imperium currently faces two near unstoppable threats. Poorly written robot people and space bugs.

CSM are closer to Orks. Threatening and should be dealt with but there are much more important things.

In the end, all will fall to Chaos because Chaos' victory is timeless and inevitable.

And yet, the single most visible & recognised aspect of the forces of Chaos are a running joke...

Nothing will fall to Chaos because the Tyranids and Necrons will kill them all first.

Upheaval in the Imperium is not a rare thing.

**Pouncey**

pm713 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Roknar wrote:
13 Black Crusades would want to disagree with you. They weren't individual attempts to take down the imperium. Abaddon has a plan and the imperium has no idea what that is and have been almost universally unable to stop him from executing it. And it would seem that now, finally, all that planning is coming to fruition and he is pushing for the end game. The imperium has never been more threatened than now...by chaos.

Hopefully, we'll see sisters get updates along side csm. If this is really to be the end times, all them heretics must be coming crawling out of their hidings and somebody has a lot of burning to do.

Those 12 Crusades that have done nothing significant... Abbadon got a special sword. Yippee.

The Imperium currently faces two near unstoppable threats. Poorly written robot people and space bugs.

CSM are closer to Orks. Threatening and should be dealt with but there are much more important things.

In the end, all will fall to Chaos because Chaos' victory is timeless and inevitable.

And yet, the single most visible & recognised aspect of the forces of Chaos are a running joke...

Nothing will fall to Chaos because the Tyranids and Necrons will kill them all first.

Upheaval in the Imperium is not a rare thing.

If the Imperium gets wiped out, Chaos would lose a lot of its strength since they are literally the manifested thoughts and emotions of humans (and other assorted races).

**ClockworkZion**

Melissia wrote:
At the very least, Sisters are an important part of Imperial culture in-universe, simultaneously beloved and feared by the population-- Space Marines are myth and legend to the common person, but Sisters of Battle are a well known reality.

The estimated number of sisters in the galaxy varies immensely depending on the author, between them being depicted as common as there being potentially hundreds of millions, with a presence on almost every Imperial world, down to them being an elite force of a hew hundred thousand. GW's writing staff is massively inconsistent on the topic.

I did some rough math that basically said 10 Billion Sisters (avg 10,500 per Imperial World) would be about right:

About a year ago a friend of mine and myself sat down with the idea of trying to figure out about how "big" the Imperium was roughly population wise (and about how many Sisters of Battle would fit the setting). So we dug through all the information on population levels from old rulebooks and what we could find and here's what we worked out while trying to keep the numbers on the low end as possible:

To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:

1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
1% of those complete their "basic" training successfully
1% of those are on active status at any time (the other 99% have been deactivated for any number of reasons). This last one was to really just push the number a lot lower based on the "stuff happens" quotient.
50% of the final total is Militant Orders, the rest is divided into the various Non-Militant Orders (which makes each of those smaller than the combined Militant Orders).

So running some basic numbers we figured that from the Hive Worlds (all 32,380 of them) had a rough average of 50,000,000,000 (we went with 50 Billion a Hive, which is about the middle of the range (10-100,000,000,000), and 10 Hive a planet, which is a bit lower than half as the range is 5-20) 16,190,000,000,000,000 people on the hives.

To keep the math easy we went with an average of 5 Billion people on average on every other planet in the Imperium (working from 1,000,000 that means 967,620 worlds) which is lower than our current population on Earth. That gave us another 4,838,100,000,000,000 more people.

This gave us a total of 21,028,100,000,000,000 people in the Imperium on a lowball math run (that is 21 Quadrillion people for the record).

Of these 210,281,000,000,000 meet the very basic criteria (1% of the population).
Of those 2,102,810,000,000 complete the basic training (1% of those who meet the basic criteria).
Of those 21,028,100,000 are on any kind of active duty (1% of those who complete the training).
Of those 10,514,050,000 are Battle Sisters (50% of those who are active duty).

With 1 Million Worlds in the Imperium this means the Sisters could in theory put as many as 10, 514 Sisters on every world on average (the real spread is likely much more varied depending on combat operations, duties on Shrine Worlds, escorting pilgrimages, ect. This is just to give a rough idea of how many there could be.)

Now understandably 10.5 Billion sounds like a lot, but considering the scale of the Imperium it turns out to only be .00005% of the entire Imperium (for a comparative basis it'd be like 300 Sisters in the United States, or 6 Sisters to every state in the US), so still plenty "elite" for the setting.

This was a couple of years ago but I think it still holds true nd shows how the studio is failing to fully capitalize on the Army.

Even if you cut the finale figure in half, or to a quarter that's still a LOT of angry space nuns.

On a different note, and this isn't to play the "my at has it worse" game but just to highlight a point: the only reason Sisters got their last two codexes was to remove models and options from the book. The WD one went out of print and for a long time they didn't even have an official Army list for anyone who didn't get the WD on release.

To also clarify the point about Sisters being mid-tier: yes, there is a mid-tier build in the book. Just one. Basically ignore the Elites slot, the Canoness and Command Squad, ignore Retributors (Exorcists are better) and Penitent Engines, and don't even think of using Repentia.

Oh, and all of the Acts of Faith are one attempt only, must be tested for and are almost all watered down versions of rules other armies get for free all the time.

And the basic Sister costs more than a Marine Scout despite the fact that the Scout has a generally better statline with only worse armour.

The whole faction is monobuild, overcosted and only gets updated to remove OOP models from the list. Well models, and all of our good fluff from 2nd and 3rd is missing.

Yes CSM need an update to their rules but Sisters need a complete relaunch to properly get them on the table instead of this phantom that claims to be the Sororitas.

**Ventus**

As a nid player, tyranids certainly need a new codex. We are using the crappy 6th ed dex (which was mainly a cut and paste of the crappy 5th ed dex not addressing the host of problems), dataslates, FW, Leviathan, new model rules, etc. Our army is a complete mess (such a large amount of units/biomorphs are poor choices) even using the scattered rules/additions and is in dire need of a massive overhaul.

Maybe the delay in a tyranid FAQ/errata is because a new dex is in the works or serious effort is being put into the army FAQ/errata to try to make most of it work?

I would like to hope that GW is starting down another path with the re-introduction of FAQ/errata and new leadership but at this point I still expect that if nids do get a new dex, even if nicely done, 8th edition will arrive a few months later buggering up half of it. Hope I'm wrong but I've been burned too many times by GW.

**ClockworkZion**

Ventus wrote:
As a nid player, tyranids certainly need a new codex. We are using the crappy 6th ed dex (which was mainly a cut and paste of the crappy 5th ed dex not addressing the host of problems), dataslates, FW, Leviathan, new model rules, etc. Our army is a complete mess (such a large amount of units/biomorphs are poor choices) even using the scattered rules/additions and is in dire need of a massive overhaul.

Maybe the delay in a tyranid FAQ/errata is because a new dex is in the works or serious effort is being put into the army FAQ/errata to try to make most of it work?

I would like to hope that GW is starting down another path with the re-introduction of FAQ/errata and new leadership but at this point I still expect that if nids do get a new dex, even if nicely done, 8th edition will arrive a few months later buggering up half of it. Hope I'm wrong but I've been burned too many times by GW.

Don't forget that Shadows in the Warp doesn't actually make it harder to use psychic powers (as it is in the fluff) but just mucks with psyker leadership.

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
And yet there's very few stories of Marines getting killed en mass by being stepped on by titans. So clearly this is not the narrative GW wishes to establish for their legendary super-rare super-soldiers.

It doesn't matter if they explicitly write it or not. In a genre with big stompy robots, those pilots are the elite, not the grunts in power armor. Basically, it's like battletech trying to make the elemental pilots the heroes. It just doesn't work. They're just not that super even within the context of their own lore. It's all plot armor, which breaks my suspension of disbelief completely.

**Melissia**

In a genre with big stompy robots, those pilots are the elite

Nope. You're making baseless assertions here.

**master of ordinance**

Is it just me or has this thread completely lost all sense and semblance of the original subject?

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
In a genre with big stompy robots, those pilots are the elite

Nope. You're making baseless assertions here.

No, I'm not because the big stompy robots are the most powerful things on the battlefield. Those pilots matter MUCH more than space marines.

Now, one might assert that the marines are more like special forces and don't participate in pitched battles, but this is ALSO not the narrative. So the narrative makes no sense to me no matter how you slice it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Is it just me or has this thread completely lost all sense and semblance of the original subject?

Yeah, it has. But we all know who needs updated.

**Melissia**

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm not because the big stompy robots are the most powerful things on the battlefield.

1: In the lore of 40k, this is entirely debatable.
2: And?

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm not because the big stompy robots are the most powerful things on the battlefield.

1: In the lore of 40k, this is entirely debatable.
2: And?

I personally don't find it that debateable. The big stompy robots are the reason that posters are giving for why the Tau can't beat the Ad Mech over in another thread. The Tau have the marines' number already. The titans? Not so much evidently. What's more important then? 1000 guys who get evaporated like little punks to the latest Tau toy? Or the giant war machines that the Tau can't crack yet?

Regardless, Sisters are way more impactful on a galactic scale than marines. Sheer numbers will do that. The only way the marines make any sense at all is if they number in the millions. As presented, marines might as well not exist. Triple that sentiment for tabletop marines. Although I don't think the gulf is what people are making it out to be. Most things that give marines fits on the table top are shooting elements. There's no reason this wouldn't translate in the lore except for plot armor.

**Melissia**

Martel732 wrote:
The Tau have the marines' number already.

No they don't.

**adamsouza**

At the casualty rates inflicted in any piece of 40K fiction, Space Marine chapters and Chaos Marines are completely unsustainable if any logic were applied. We completely hand wave this for the sake of the narrative.

The codexes are ALL written to make any faction your playing seem important to the overall narrative.

Chaos Space Marines are a smaller faction than Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks. They may get more time to shine in the fiction but they were Space Marines to begin with. Space Marines were a fraction in number compared to humanity in general, and they have very little logical way to replace their losses.

You would think with 10,000 years of attrition there wouldn't be many Chaos marines left. It's not like they can draw from Imperial worlds for the small percentage of humans worthy and capable of becomeing marines. They don't have the support of the Adeptus Mechanicus for tech marines and gear.

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The Tau have the marines' number already.
No they don't.

The Riptide and Stormsurge can basically massacre as many marines as they need them to. At infinitum. You need to call in the titans, the knights, or air support to stop them. Especially in real battles where they can back up and keep shooting with no table edge.

"We completely hand wave this for the sake of the narrative. "

I don't. I simply don't believe GW's narrative is remotely possible.

"You would think with 10,000 years of attrition there wouldn't be many Chaos marines left."

I thought the Chaos gods just kept recycling and resurrecting the same dudes over and over.

**Pouncey**

Martel732 wrote:
Now, one might assert that the marines are more like special forces and don't participate in pitched battles, but this is ALSO not the narrative. So the narrative makes no sense to me no matter how you slice it.

Yes it is.

In the fluff, the Marines don't do a whole lot of holding battle lines and doing pitched battles. They do surgical strikes on enemy HQs, supply lines, vital facilities, etc.

At least that's what I remember. Has it changed in the past... decade?

**Melissia**

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge can basically massacre as many marines as they need them to

You're conflating game mechanics of a poorly balanced, overburdened tabletop wargaming system with the established lore attached to said game system. The two are not the same.

**Martel732**

Pouncey wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Now, one might assert that the marines are more like special forces and don't participate in pitched battles, but this is ALSO not the narrative. So the narrative makes no sense to me no matter how you slice it.

Yes it is.

In the fluff, the Marines don't do a whole lot of holding battle lines and doing pitched battles. They do surgical strikes on enemy HQs, supply lines, vital facilities, etc.

At least that's what I remember. Has it changed in the past... decade?

My contention is one wrong intel job and they do a surgical strike into an actual reinforced area and you just lost a chapter. On a planetary scale, you'd have to deploy at least 1000 guys to get anything done.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide and Stormsurge can basically massacre as many marines as they need them to

You're conflating game mechanics of a poorly balanced, overburdened tabletop wargaming system with the established lore attached to said game system. The two are not the same.

There's no reason to think they can't do the same in the lore. That's what they are designed to do, after all. I can't believe that a man-sized suit of armor can stand up to the power out put of units that big. Their fusion engines (or whatever) are probably as big as the marine.

**Pouncey**

Martel732 wrote:
"You would think with 10,000 years of attrition there wouldn't be many Chaos marines left."

I thought the Chaos gods just kept recycling and resurrecting the same dudes over and over.

No, the Chaos Marines retreated to the Eye of Terror after Horus died at Terra (not sure why, they were winning the war on Terra and losing their leader and one ship shouldn't have crippled their offensive THAT badly), and due to the time-fethery of the Warp those Marines have not actually experienced anywhere near 10,000 years.

Also it's worth noting that they took half of the Space Marine Legions with them, and a Legion was way, WAY bigger than a Chapter is.

**Martel732**

Pouncey wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"You would think with 10,000 years of attrition there wouldn't be many Chaos marines left."

I thought the Chaos gods just kept recycling and resurrecting the same dudes over and over.

No, the Chaos Marines retreated to the Eye of Terror after Horus died at Terra (not sure why, they were winning the war on Terra and losing their leader and one ship shouldn't have crippled their offensive THAT badly), and due to the time-fethery of the Warp those Marines have not actually experienced anywhere near 10,000 years.

Also it's worth noting that they took half of the Space Marine Legions with them, and a Legion was way, WAY bigger than a Chapter is.

Isn't it also possible that the chaos gods can keep recycling the same guys over and over as well?

**Pouncey**

Martel732 wrote:
My contention is one wrong intel job and they do a surgical strike into an actual reinforced area and you just lost a chapter. On a planetary scale, you'd have to deploy at least 1000 guys to get anything done.

Space Marines don't go to war alone most of the time. Typically there are millions of Imperial Guardsmen doing the brunt of the killing and dying in the trenches. I believe I heard it put as the Imperial Guard being the Imperium's sledgehammer, and the Space Marines the scalpel.

There's no reason to think they can't do the same in the lore. That's what they are designed to do, after all. I can't believe that a man-sized suit of armor can stand up to the power out put of units that big. Their fusion engines (or whatever) are probably as big as the marine.

The Space Marines' weaknesses on the tabletop are highly amplified compared to the lore due to the need to sell copious amounts of Space Marine models. Fluffy Marines would probably take less than 20 models to a 2000 point game.

In the lore, their armor is basically like wearing a tank.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"You would think with 10,000 years of attrition there wouldn't be many Chaos marines left."

I thought the Chaos gods just kept recycling and resurrecting the same dudes over and over.

No, the Chaos Marines retreated to the Eye of Terror after Horus died at Terra (not sure why, they were winning the war on Terra and losing their leader and one ship shouldn't have crippled their offensive THAT badly), and due to the time-fethery of the Warp those Marines have not actually experienced anywhere near 10,000 years.

Also it's worth noting that they took half of the Space Marine Legions with them, and a Legion was way, WAY bigger than a Chapter is.

Isn't it also possible that the chaos gods can keep recycling the same guys over and over as well?

Maybe?

I know they do that with the demons, and the more powerful the demon the longer it takes to respawn.

I dunno if that applies to non-demonic followers of Chaos though.