Have you got a Timmy? A brief study on MoO's encounters with a TFG and a study of behaviours.

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**krodarklorr**

I've never encountered straight up cheating. Though I am guilty of forgetting rules, especially recently because I'm returning from a Hiatus. I was playing against Eldar/Chaos using Necrons and my friend had Tau. We penned both Wave Serpents, and it wasn't until my other friend came over and mentioned that we remembered Serpent Shields. I felt like an asshat, though at the same time, it's not my codex, so if I forget a rule it shouldn't be my fault.

Then of course there are people that show up occasionally that want to run 2 Stormsurges and 3 Riptides, and question why I turn down a game like that.

**Selym**

Verviedi wrote:
Are you seriously so bored and hateful that you'd pull out your calculator to decide who would win, instead of just enjoying the fething game? .

Well, sudden outburst from Verviedi.

If you see IG Tanks facing almost any C:SM army, you know who will win. If you see damn near anything except eldar facing scatbikes and wraithknights, you know who will win. If you see CSM on the field, you know who will lose.

Am I Bored? Yes. Am I hateful? Also yes. Am I either of these in relation to players? No.

**Verviedi**

You are massively overestimating the power the meta has over local stores and clubs. People aren't running scatterbikes and Wraithknights in pickup games, and matchups aren't as brutal as in tournaments.

**Selym**

And on to the next point about how player decisions have no effect. Even in balanced games there is a gakton of random tables that degrade the usefulness of any player decisions

For all the rules bloat there is no longer an actual game.

**commander dante**

I Play Alpha Legion, so i dont suffer from little timmys "List Tailoring" when in reality, hes playing into my hand

I INTENTIONALLY let slip of what i will be taking, so little timmy will build to counter it (E.G Ill "Take" a vehicle-heavy list, so he will go for drop melta spam, when in Reality im taking Shed Loads of Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Missile Launchers and stuff that messes up his reserves (Damocles, Alpharius, Alpha Legion RoW)

Ive had many people rage about it, so the next game they'll try to counter the counter (E.G if i said i was taking a Vehicle-Heavy list so he thinks "He thinks im gonna take drop melta, so ill take Mass Infantry to make half his army useless" (As Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Missile Launchers have Skyfire) and it actually turns out i AM taking Vehicle Heavy, and he cant deal with it

Ah its fun to mess around as an Alpha Legion Player

**Martel732**

Reavas wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Demon players who don't explain what crazy gak they are rolling for, or even show the rolls.

Players who don't pay attention to daemon players who are rolling their gak

Me: Im rolling on the warpstorm tab...

Opponent:*Idly looks at phone and texts*

Me: Im rolling...

Opponent: *Still just in a daze, maybe commenting politely about another players model and being a pretty nice fella*

Me: Im rolling on the warpstorm table? *rolls dice and gets a 10*

Opponent: Huh?

Me: My daemons get a + 1 to all their invuln saves.

Opponent: *shoots me a suspicious glance and sighs*

I get it, we have a lot of tables, warlord trait, grimoire, warpstorm table, daemonic rewards, etc but I feel soooo bad when something like this happens, and it happens surprisingly often too, and its not like they arent at the table with me. Am I the only player who suffers this?

I was paying attention. He was just rolling dice without explaining anything, really. All his rewards were +1 to the save as well.

**krodarklorr**

Verviedi wrote:
You are massively overestimating the power the meta has over local stores and clubs. People aren't running scatterbikes and Wraithknights in pickup games, and matchups aren't as brutal as in tournaments.

Okay.

People are, however, still running Shuricannon bikes and at least 1 wraithknight, with Warp Spyders. In a casual game that's still ridiculous.

**commander dante**

Martel732 wrote:
Reavas wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Demon players who don't explain what crazy gak they are rolling for, or even show the rolls.

Players who don't pay attention to daemon players who are rolling their gak

Me: Im rolling on the warpstorm tab...

Opponent:*Idly looks at phone and texts*

Me: Im rolling...

Opponent: *Still just in a daze, maybe commenting politely about another players model and being a pretty nice fella*

Me: Im rolling on the warpstorm table? *rolls dice and gets a 10*

Opponent: Huh?

Me: My daemons get a + 1 to all their invuln saves.

Opponent: *shoots me a suspicious glance and sighs*

I get it, we have a lot of tables, warlord trait, grimoire, warpstorm table, daemonic rewards, etc but I feel soooo bad when something like this happens, and it happens surprisingly often too, and its not like they arent at the table with me. Am I the only player who suffers this?

I was paying attention. He was just rolling dice without explaining anything, really. All his rewards were +1 to the save as well.

He also didnt explain when he was rolling for his Portalglyph and Grimoire of True Names

**Martel732**

krodarklorr wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
You are massively overestimating the power the meta has over local stores and clubs. People aren't running scatterbikes and Wraithknights in pickup games, and matchups aren't as brutal as in tournaments.

Okay.

People are, however, still running Shuricannon bikes and at least 1 wraithknight, with Warp Spyders. In a casual game that's still ridiculous.

That's a typical outing for Eldar.

**krodarklorr**

Martel732 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
You are massively overestimating the power the meta has over local stores and clubs. People aren't running scatterbikes and Wraithknights in pickup games, and matchups aren't as brutal as in tournaments.

Okay.

People are, however, still running Shuricannon bikes and at least 1 wraithknight, with Warp Spyders. In a casual game that's still ridiculous.

That's a typical outing for Eldar.

My point exactly. Even the "casual" Eldar players who like to "not use the best thing" usually end up bringing Aspect Hosts and Shuricannon bikes. And of course at least one Wraithknight.

**Backspacehacker**

Eldar right now are just in a weird place because there is not winning with them. Either your bringing OP units or under powered units, no middle ground.

**pm713**

krodarklorr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
You are massively overestimating the power the meta has over local stores and clubs. People aren't running scatterbikes and Wraithknights in pickup games, and matchups aren't as brutal as in tournaments.

Okay.

People are, however, still running Shuricannon bikes and at least 1 wraithknight, with Warp Spyders. In a casual game that's still ridiculous.

That's a typical outing for Eldar.

My point exactly. Even the "casual" Eldar players who like to "not use the best thing" usually end up bringing Aspect Hosts and Shuricannon bikes. And of course at least one Wraithknight.

I'll just sit here in my weird area where Wraithknights aren't an issue from Eldar players.

**Martel732**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Eldar right now are just in a weird place because there is not winning with them. Either your bringing OP units or under powered units, no middle ground.

They don't have underpowered units.

**krodarklorr**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Eldar right now are just in a weird place because there is not winning with them. Either your bringing OP units or under powered units, no middle ground.

Yeah, they really don't have Underpowered units. They just have less powerful options.

**pm713**

Rangers, Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Wraithlord, Banshees. Nothing bad at all.

**ShieldBrother**

pm713 wrote:
Rangers, Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Wraithlord, Banshees. Nothing bad at all.

I wish I could have a t8 MC with a 3+. The only thing really bad on that list is storm guardians, and even then they're just Wyches pretty much, so it's not like other armies have better options.

**pm713**

ShieldBrother wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Rangers, Storm Guardians, Shining Spears, Wraithlord, Banshees. Nothing bad at all.

I wish I could have a t8 MC with a 3+. The only thing really bad on that list is storm guardians, and even then they're just Wyches pretty much, so it's not like other armies have better options.

Rangers do nothing, Spears are horrendously overpriced, banshees are priced like marines but die easily.

I wish my MC did something without dying or being overpriced.

**Talizvar**

Well, "the little Timmy" would be quite drawn to games where you can "pay to win" if they are the type to get cash out of the parents.

Also games like 40k that DEPEND on luck lets little Timmy win when typically a "pure" strategy game he would be crushed by the more experienced every time.

I like this article: http://blog.prismata.net/2014/07/15/luck-in-games/.
The author is a bit beyond the typical "crunchy chess club brain":
https://uwaterloo.ca/combinatorics-and-optimization/graduate-studies-combinatorics-and-optimization-c-and-o/alumni-profiles/elyot-grant

So your choice of games will increase or decrease your chance encounter with the fellow usually in direct proportion to how much random is used.

**pm713**

Depends on how bad Timmy is at games. If you're bad enough luck and power creep won't let Timmy win 40k.

**Jaxler**

My local Timmy once played me when I was just starting. He invited me into a 3 way 500 point match where he constantly spouted how op tau were (this was before their new codex and he was playing necrons) and convinced the CSN guy to focus me or else my 17fire warriors would ruin his land raiders or something. He also told me I couldn't run formations whilst he himself went unbound. Turn one he used the decider to put his army off the board but someone didn't lose, and then turn 1 had a doom scythe on the board and not in hover. It charged my warriors, shot it's gun and killed 10 out 12 warriors in my squad because apparently with tesla 6s would an extra 4 times and get to roll to see if they also get sixes that wound another 4 times. He deployed his death start with lych guard overlord and kryptek. He then said his flyer was all around 14 armor when my hammerhead it (I rolled the skyfire warlord trait)

Needless to say turn 2 he assaulted me, and his Deciver shard rolled times arrow and got a 6 on the d chart when I wasn't looking, and fried my long strike. He assaulted my fire warriors and pretty much tabled me. The CSM guy was also new and horribly confused. I picked up my pathfinders and left after that before the local vet gamer took me aside and explained what happened.

Also I went home and calculated up his list after that. He had 650-700 points in a 500 point match.

I played him later on because I know rules better now, and I regularly beat him even when he goes over the points. I often have to 'correct' him when he does something like say a battle cannon is str 10 ap 1 or something equally dumb. He also has a tendency to have to 'leave because a phone call' if it looks like he's about to lose.

Btw he complains about str 5 guns on fire warriors and thinks your a TFG for running one riptide in a 1850 point match. He thinks tau are super mega cheese and won't let you forget it all game long while he's running decurion.

**SYKOJAK**

Using the "Timmy the Powergamer" title does not fit all the types of bad form when it comes to classifying bad gaming behavior.
A Timmy, is an unltracompetitive type who does everything in their power to win, just short of cheating. These guys are usually masters of using the cheesiest lists possible to ensure victory. They also tend to proxy a lot to try out their wild lists or net lists their are itching to try.
Next you have, Charlie the Cheater. This guy is not above, using Extra points than what was agreed to. And he will use loaded dice. He will frequently misrepresent stats and special abilities. Whatever gives the guy an edge at the time, you can expect that he will try to use.
The next profile that I would highlight, is Larry the Rules Lawyer. Now this guys schtick is arguing over every definition of the rules with you to include, the definition of any and all words, within a said rule. It can be mentally exhausting to play versus as well as with someone on your team.
The next personality is AL the Arrogant. This guy can do no wrong and you can do no right. Whether he is in the current game of just watching from the sidelines, this guy gives his opinion about anything and everything that is going on. And you have to hear it non stop.
Lastly, there is Dummy Dave. This guy does not know the rules of the game, does not know his troops stats, has to be told where to look up everything in the Codexes and rulebook, of where to find such information. They are there just being oxygen thiefs. Which is fine, until you have been playing for more than a year with them. By which time they should have lost their Newb status.
And don't forget folks. At any point in time a player can and will exhibit any and or all combinations of these personalities. Such is the life of a table top gamer and the burden he must bear.
While just trying to throw some dice, move some toy soldiers, and swig back a few pints. Good luck to you all, and happy minitures gaming!

**Talizvar**

Jaxler wrote:
Btw he complains about str 5 guns on fire warriors and thinks your a TFG for running one riptide in a 1850 point match. He thinks tau are super mega cheese and won't let you forget it all game long while he's running decurion.

Because that person will never, never, never lose to anything unless it was somehow in his eyes a cheat.
Never can be accountable for your own loss you know.
Been there, done that and want the T-shirt.
"I beat the "Timmy" but he decided I didn't!"

**Jaxler**

Talizvar wrote:
Jaxler wrote:
Btw he complains about str 5 guns on fire warriors and thinks your a TFG for running one riptide in a 1850 point match. He thinks tau are super mega cheese and won't let you forget it all game long while he's running decurion.
Because that person will never, never, never lose to anything unless it was somehow in his eyes a cheat.
Never can be accountable for your own loss you know.
Been there, done that and want the T-shirt.
"I beat the "Timmy" but he decided I didn't!"

To his credit when I was winning and he had to 'take off' the first few times I was using the pre FAQ RAW for coordinated firepower.

Problem is it was RAW, and I was of the mind that until gw fixes it, coordinated firepower was as op as the book said. I mostly just used it in order to get all 36 of my fire warriors to triple tap with a fireblade but in later on I dropped using coordinated firepower rule sharing cause' it was a bit op for friendly stuff even though my opinion was that RAW is RAW.

Though now that Coordibated fire power is nerfed it's rather sad that the only tau top competitive lists are nothing but tide' spam and Stormsurges. Eh, i know cones off uber entitled to be sad my army only has one op list instead of two, but unit spam is always a bit tasteless unless you've a theme your going for or something.

**Talizvar**

Unfortunately you only have the rules to go by.
Anyone at any time can take it as far as they want "legally"

It is the consistent "misremembering" rules in their favor that gets into the strange Timmy-zone.

Unless you pick the most "derp" army list possible, they will still point out any slightly competitive component as "OP" just in case by some miracle they lose.

**Insectum7**

We don't have a Timmy. We definitely have some WAAC types with gnarly lists, and occasionally the sort that won't announce whats being rolled for when rolling, and suspiciously get some high/good results when others aren't looking.

I've seen some long 6" moves too, but that's sort of the extent of it.

Rarely are the hypercompetetive list people the same as the peolpe who fudge movement and pull the sneak-roll maneuver.

**Talizvar**

A friend of ours had a tape measure that stretched.
He decided to use it for one game just for the LOLs.
After a few moments of wondering if I cannot judge distances he revealed it was a cheat.
A firm wedgie was applied... yes, I think any Timmy maneuver requires one to be hung by their briefs just to make an example.

**Davor**

commander dante wrote:I Play Alpha Legion, so i dont suffer from little timmys "List Tailoring" when in reality, hes playing into my hand

I INTENTIONALLY let slip of what i will be taking, so little timmy will build to counter it (E.G Ill "Take" a vehicle-heavy list, so he will go for drop melta spam, when in Reality im taking Shed Loads of Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Missile Launchers and stuff that messes up his reserves (Damocles, Alpharius, Alpha Legion RoW)

Ive had many people rage about it, so the next game they'll try to counter the counter (E.G if i said i was taking a Vehicle-Heavy list so he thinks "He thinks im gonna take drop melta, so ill take Mass Infantry to make half his army useless" (As Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Missile Launchers have Skyfire) and it actually turns out i AM taking Vehicle Heavy, and he cant deal with it

Ah its fun to mess around as an Alpha Legion Player

*Stands up and starts to slow clap, wiping a tear out of my eye*

I don't know, I just found this so beautiful.

**Just Tony**

krodarklorr wrote:
I've never encountered straight up cheating. Though I am guilty of forgetting rules, especially recently because I'm returning from a Hiatus. I was playing against Eldar/Chaos using Necrons and my friend had Tau. We penned both Wave Serpents, and it wasn't until my other friend came over and mentioned that we remembered Serpent Shields. I felt like an asshat, though at the same time, it's not my codex, so if I forget a rule it shouldn't be my fault.

Then of course there are people that show up occasionally that want to run 2 Stormsurges and 3 Riptides, and question why I turn down a game like that.

In my first tourney, the BA player I was playing against tried to sweeping advance through my Crimson Fists. You know, since I don't have the exact same "And they shall know no fear" that he has. He also did some other things that I didn't catch until later that were massively ginchy, like an apothecary healing a wound that it couldn't heal, stuff like that. I actually called him out on the Sweeping Advance thing, and figured out the other shady stuff later that week while rereading the rulebook AND the Blood Angels codex, which I got so I wouldn't be caught unawares again.

I'm sure I've come across other stuff that fits the Timmy bill, but this will do for now.

**krodarklorr**

Just Tony wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
I've never encountered straight up cheating. Though I am guilty of forgetting rules, especially recently because I'm returning from a Hiatus. I was playing against Eldar/Chaos using Necrons and my friend had Tau. We penned both Wave Serpents, and it wasn't until my other friend came over and mentioned that we remembered Serpent Shields. I felt like an asshat, though at the same time, it's not my codex, so if I forget a rule it shouldn't be my fault.

Then of course there are people that show up occasionally that want to run 2 Stormsurges and 3 Riptides, and question why I turn down a game like that.

In my first tourney, the BA player I was playing against tried to sweeping advance through my Crimson Fists. You know, since I don't have the exact same "And they shall know no fear" that he has. He also did some other things that I didn't catch until later that were massively ginchy, like an apothecary healing a wound that it couldn't heal, stuff like that. I actually called him out on the Sweeping Advance thing, and figured out the other shady stuff later that week while rereading the rulebook AND the Blood Angels codex, which I got so I wouldn't be caught unawares again.

I'm sure I've come across other stuff that fits the Timmy bill, but this will do for now.

Yeah, I've had some people in the local leagues (back when I did such things) do some things like that. One guy argued that because the bottom gun on my A-barge was slightly obscured, that all of it's shooting would give him a cover save. He also wanted this cover save to be a 4+ and it was on Fire Warriors. I didn't have AP4 on my guns. So, I ended up letting him have that one.

**Dantes_Baals**

Deadnight wrote:
Personally, I think there is a sense of entitlement going on with the Timmy. I dunno, I think a psychologist would probably have a term for it.

When I see gamers, as a whole, especially the young 'uns, we tend to be at the bottom of the social ladder and the 'losers' at school and in 'real' life - things change as you get older but as a whole, wargaming has a far higher ratio of the socially awkward and inept and the people that are social outcasts amongst the cool kids.

Within gaming though, you have a 'safe space' with fellow nerds who like the same thing, and it feels like you are not a loser any more. For a lot of us, gaming is that safe space and we make friends and come out of our shells over time - I know I did. We 'grow up' - well, kinda!
Where the 'timmy' comes in is where this safe space translates to a desire for empowerment, to be the 'cool dude' amongst the nerds. I'm all for personal empowerment - be a better person. Run faster, for longer, lift more weights, get better and all that stuff. Personal growth. That's all fine, normal and frankly, perfectly healthy and laudable. However, for Timmy, it's an entirely selfish experience. Maybe because he is not the King elsewhere, he needs it here. It's all about him. No one else. You are not a friend. You are a notch on his belt. You are a means to an end. Rather than personal empowerment because of personal growth, we get personal empowerment because of the disempowerment of everyone else. Timmy has to be the cool kid, with the cool toys, who is better than everyone else, and will hold it against you if you have cool toys, if you use them and if you do well. He is no longer special. Because you doing well is a slight against him. He wants the 'illusion' of competition, whereas in reality, he wants to win without trying against opponents who don't have a chance. He wants a two player game, with no one at the other controls (or rather have someone else with the p2 controls, but don't plug them in!) In effect, he is taking the mantle of the 'bully' that probably pesters him elsewhere in real life because the expression of his empowerment comes at the expense of everyone else. He only feels good when everyone else is feeling bad.

I feel sorry for Timmy. I really do. I mean, his desires, however twisted have a grain of honesty, but the execution of them is so often an extremely unhealthy and self destructive approach.

I used to be this guy in my early HS years. I had just moved to a new place, found a LGS and tried to win an any cost (Barring cheating). I hated everything about my new life/location so a win, even in this petty fashion would give me a temporary reprieve from the harassment and depression.

That ssid, I'm 14 years older now and I grew up the hard way. Socially outcast, been addicted to everything under the sun, etc (mind you none of this had to do with 40k).

As for Timmy in either one of my LGS'? I really can't think of one. There's a guy who enjoys messing with people to the point that his "pranks" translate to every day life and normal activities. My first game with him, he offered up a "friendly " game so I brought a 10th company CAD with some landspeeder storms and CC Centurions on foot. He brought his Admech convocation list he had just used in a GT. You can guess how that game went... The guys chill as can be otherwise (once you know when he's messing about and whatnot).

The only other two people I can think of is a CSM player who complains A LOT, but he's one of my best friends and I have a near unbreakable patience threshold so it's nothing close to making him a "Timmy".

The other guy runs his necrons on hard mode all the time. Found out I got cheated a few times (small discrepancies, but they make a HUGE difference ). If he's down by a decent margin he'll question every rule in.your dex and try to make the most of RAW in his. Now I can be a bit of a BRB hound, but that's from a terrible memory after almost a decade of being a colossal dumbass, not to try to gain an advantage. Again, he's one of the coolest people you could hope to meet otherwise and there's nothing wrong with competitive play, but between the occasional rules rules layering (I mean the Johnny Cochran of rules lawyers ) when he needs a comeback and the very, very rare occasions where he takes advantage of my patience to cheat in small ways, he's not even in the same ballpark as any of the other timmy so in this thread.

In a community of about 30 - 35 players, that's as bad as it gets. Guess it's a big part of why I love the game so much.