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The Orks need so much stuff that I can't imagine any suggestion for Lootas being too crazy. Looting IoM stuff isn't exactly taking over the world, unfortunately.

Maybe letting them loot some grav cannons might help

Honestly I think D3+1 isn't a bad solution. Does it fit their fluff/intended purpose? Nope, but we all know how GW is about gak like that. What I like about lootas being BS2 is that it doesn't really matter too much if they have to snap fire. Most folks put loot as in cover, and going from a 4+ ruin save, to a 3+ gtg save is a decent improvement and if they got the D3+1 shots it would be attending the better.

I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Only read the first page TBH. I played D3+1 with my buddy against my BA and it wasn't too bad. I was also gonna suggest a possible BS3 if a Big Mek was taken, but I think rerolling low shot count would be a nice balance

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

The extra shots are off set by their horrendous accuracy.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I could agree to that if I thought that there was a , Oh I don't really know, a stronger up side to being "random". which I don't really think is there. I've mentioned else where that I think GW missed the boat on a few other weapons in the Ork codex. Just adding a few special rules would have made them more..useful if not more deadly.
But I didn't really start with Orks until 3rd edition and at that time I think they were very reliable. My brother played them several time during second and we both had some amazing reactions to the Splatta Kannon, as it went up and down the table killing loads of Guardsmen then back toward his lines to kill some of his own models. ..We had a blast with that. But I think it was different in that it didn't really have a noticeable downside to his game or his army. Though it was amazing to experience. This edition and codex have most defiantly changed the way I plan an army. If nothing's worth the point then why not take a little of everything so I don't get disappointed. for lootas this just means mobs of 5, some times they really surprise everyone playing.
I actually think the other armies costing less points than they should hurts Codex Orks a lot. we can't very well expect to get out units much cheaper than they already are. Can we?

 Nazrak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

Orks are tragically predictable in 7th, however.

 Nazrak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I feel like D3+1's kinda overdoing it. There's basically no bad result there and it just means you're kicking out good to ludicrous firepower every turn, without any potential drawbacks. I still like the suggestion someone made a while ago of Mek's Tools allowing you to re-roll for any randomised weapons (Deffgun's, Snazzguns, the Mek Guns that have it) – means there's a reason to have Meks with Lootas, gives them a little boost, and is nice and fluffy.

Do the math Naz, D3+1 means in a unit of 15 lootas you go from 5, 10, 15 hits depending on dice rolls to 10, 15, 20 depending on dice rolls. What it really does is eliminates the HORRENDOUS downside of a loota, which is 1 shot per turn. 2 shots at least gives you a semblance of inflicting damage on the enemy. 20 hits means your going to feth up a target nicely, keep in mind though that its still only AP4 without any ability to gain Ignores cover and what not so there is that. You could also reduce maximum size of lootas to 10 and I wouldnt mind. That would be 7, 10, 12-13ish hits per turn which is not bad at all. and just to add more flavor to my comment, for a minimum unit of 5 thats 3, 5 and 7 hits respectively. Or in other words, it makes them worth taking in MSU style armies because they can actually inflict some damage before getting destroyed.

I think where we're somewhat at odds is that you seem to want Orks to be reliable, in terms of how they perform on the tabletop. I want them to be unreliable, and unpredictable, because for me, that's a large part of what the army's about. You're obviously perfectly entitled to have a different view of what Orks should be, but I think that view is somewhat at odds with 1. The view the GW design team have of what Orks should be; 2. What Orks have been ever since later 1st edition, when 'Ere We Go and Freebooterz introduced the likes of malfunction cards and randomised tables for almost everything.

I am fine with being unpredictable and random (to a degree) at the end of the day this is still a competitive game, even in its most friendly setting people are still attempting to win. Here is the problem. With MSU Lootas you have 5 lootas with no armor, low leadership, and no way to use Mob rule (unless you buy a mek which defeats the entire purpose of the MSU part) So what you have is 5 models capable of putting out 5, 10 and 15 shots depending on dice rolls. The downside is that they suck and will run off the table pretty quick or get wiped out quick, adding to that is that if you roll for 1 shot your averaging 1.66 HITS a turn. Against a T5 or less unit that usually equals 1 wound at AP4. Against Targets you want to be shooting Lootas at (vehicles, MCs) that is usually a lot less reliable. AV12 is glancing on 5s (AV11 on 4s for a 50/50 chance of doing anything), against T6-7 MCs its a 2/3rd chance to a 1/2 chance to actually wound them, and those MCs generally have 3+ armor or better and a FNP so even less likely to do anything. That is the problem in the game at the moment. Back in 3rd and even 4th edition S7 AP4 meant something, now it really doesnt. Now you NEED several shots to do anything. Scatter lasers are only good because they pump out 4 Shots at S6.

So again, I am fine with Randomness but at least make it worth taking. D3+1 equals almost 3 hits instead of 1. And at the top end it goes from 5 hits to a little less then 7...not a huge deal.


What I am not ok with is Unreliable. Randomness is fine, but the unreliable aspect ruins any competitiveness the army could have. A perfect example are our Random Strength weapons. Your more likely to waste a turn of shooting then you are of actually inflicting any damage against an enemy. The days where this was acceptable are long gone. It used to be tabling an opponent was rare, now? it happens to often.

Question for younz.
What do you all target with you lootas?
I target multi wound models single models when I can and light vehicles or small poorly armoured squads, like pathfinders.
I some times think that we're all using lootas completely differently.

 warhead01 wrote:
Question for younz.
What do you all target with you lootas?
I target multi wound models single models when I can and light vehicles or small poorly armoured squads, like pathfinders.
I some times think that we're all using lootas completely differently.

I use Lootas against Flyers, MCs FMCs. I try to focus fire anything with 4+ Saves. I will gladly use these against Bikes and AV12 or less vehicles.

I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

 Splork wrote:
I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

Exactly.

d3 or d3+1 are both random, but the D3+1 allows for a result that is always decent.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Splork wrote:
I think ork randomness should be "Curse of the Wulfen" style: all upside, but requiring thought (though not planning) to use effectively.

Exactly.

d3 or d3+1 are both random, but the D3+1 allows for a result that is always decent.

Well...D3+1 on a bad roll is 2 shots per weapon, which is currently what everyone else gets (CSM and such) with better BS. So on a 5 man loota squad that equals 10 shots totaling 3.33 hits Not really decent but a lot better then 1.66 thats for sure. On the flipside of that, when it does roll well it will be 6.66 hits which is Decent. In fact it starts getting into Scatterbike range.....except that it is still a 6+ save model that has LD7....

Would this make them "better" enough to forgo wanting a better save for them?

 warhead01 wrote:
Would this make them "better" enough to forgo wanting a better save for them?

I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

It'd be a start to completely changing the whole vibe of the army. Can't see it happening.

 Nazrak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

It'd be a start to completely changing the whole vibe of the army. Can't see it happening.

I think the specialists should get that but ork boyz shouldn't. But it should be a 2pt upgrade for boyz so you can actually have some Skarboyz if you want.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

I would rather see baseline FNP. Maybe 6+ FNP stock and during a WAAAGH!!! it goes to 5+ while a Painboy can bump it up by 1. 4+ armor can be stock for all Nob statlines (including Gitz and Nob squad leaders).

Nobz definitely need a 4+ standard, no raise in cost.

4+ grots ftw

 Vankraken wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think D3+1 with a 4+ Save for 15pts a model is still the best fit

I'm all on board with D3+1 shots and a 4+ save. Eavy Armor should be standard on any Ork better than a slugga/shoota boy, which ironically are basically the only unit that gets eavy armor as a choice in the first place.

I would actually love if Orks all got 4+ armor for free. I think it'd be a start to fixing them.

I would rather see baseline FNP. Maybe 6+ FNP stock and during a WAAAGH!!! it goes to 5+ while a Painboy can bump it up by 1. 4+ armor can be stock for all Nob statlines (including Gitz and Nob squad leaders).

Yeah I like the idea of fnp with a painboy boost. Gitz should def have 4+, would prefer Nobz to just be cheaper and have it as an option.