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 TheIngeniusNoob wrote:
So I play 40k with my sister.

You have an awesome sister.

We don't have a lot of money so i used DND miniatures to represent the armies.

It would be interesting to keep track of what was what due to WYSIWYG issues but if you can make sense of it: OK.

I've seen the prices that GW puts on their Tyranid miniatures and have also seen some of them 3d printed. But what if I printed out of paper? It would be easy to create armies that cost a lot of points and to accurately size the models. I've printed a small 500 point simple army of Tyranids and it works but I'm only using them for personal use right now, so no one go freaking out about my doing so.

If you have some affordability issues this is the most logical solution and gets the look of the "models" more in line for being representative for ease of play.
Where you would get into trouble is when you go to play with someone with assembled and painted models... it is nice to get a game in BUT it is looks-wise not as nice.
Personal example story here:So it really all boils down to what your opponent likes as well.
If the models are little more than chess pieces to you and them: awesome, do what you want.
I would say that going into 40k as a tactical exercise like chess: you are playing the wrong game, this is not a tactically balanced game, it is more like an RPG sandbox.

But seriously, what if we had these in tournaments?

Then every last person would field the absolute best paper army they could without a model in sight.
It could only be off-set by some best looking army award... barely.
It would be a sad day.
I think GW would also have something to say about their primary income of being a model company and not investing further in pulp and paper.

Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

no H8 there especially in apoc where tone side needs points. on the army men front I have seen some decently painted cheapo green army men

personally when I started the game I wanted orks and ork trukks, I has some boyz and a warboss so I built scale trukks and battlewagons out of K'nex I even made artillery out of them until I had the scratch to purchase the real models.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

no H8 there especially in apoc where tone side needs points. on the army men front I have seen some decently painted cheapo green army men

personally when I started the game I wanted orks and ork trukks, I has some boyz and a warboss so I built scale trukks and battlewagons out of K'nex I even made artillery out of them until I had the scratch to purchase the real models.

My brother plays Orks, and he built a battlefortress out of plywood, nails, balsa, card, a few small pieces of tiny corrugated metal, and leftover lumber. He built a battlewagon the same way too, with a spiky toilet paper tube for a deffrolla, and it actually looks pretty good, but it's annoyingly gigantic so it's Battlefortress #2.

Today, I'm perfectly willing to pay $80 for every squad and then an extra $10 per Sister Superior and Sister w/ Special Weapon to ensure my entire army is WYSIWYG. I do remind myself though, before I laugh at the guy who has a bunch of bases with grey legs, that one time I was there with a bunch of green army men for my Conscripts.

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

If there is a tournament that endorses paper models, even flat ones on appropriately sized bases, I'd say go for it. Who am I to proscribe the rules a Tournament Organiser should or would enforce?

However, most tournaments I have seen were in a publically accessible space. A couple in a shop, most at a convention, where other attendees could wander by the tables and look at what's there. To the TO, especially if it is a store owner or if GW starts to organise their own events again, that might also be matter of visual appeal, and downright advertising. And to GW itself, the Hobby is about buying models, assembling them, painting them. And then play a game with them if you want to. The latter has been an afterthought for such a long time. I have no stakes in this. I have no GW bonds or shares to increase my bank account. I can just see the appeal as a hobbyist that does buy models (at discounts from time to time, of course), assembles them (sometimes with intricate conversion work), paints them (to the best of my willingness and ability), and then plays a game with them. Almost every TO I know is like me, but just that little more driven about the hobby. After all, he, she or it spends time beyond buy/assemble/paint/play as they also organise the 'let others play' part, with or without prize support from GW, independent stores, or simply tournament income.

I guess that I feel like their extra effort just needs to be rewarded by seeing the Hobby at its fullest. I think it would be disrespectful to just show up with proxies, paper cut-outs, blank bases and other such 'not assembled and painted miniatures' just because, regardless of your reasons. If you ask beforehand, and they allow it, great. If they don't organise your own 'everything goes' tournament, and enjoy that part of the Hobby (as I do believe it is such as well) in your own way. Therefor, in a casual game, especially at home, I don't care. Use proxies and paper counters. Try that army, and when money comes, money comes. You'll buy miniatures. Or bread, milk, and electricity, mayhap some clothes for your children. You can have your personal priorities there. No problem.

 davou wrote:
I applaud the inclusiveness (too many of us nerds are mean spirited), but I have to disagree with the tournament thing.

Sure the game is expencive, and no one should be excluded.... but that does not mean you get a pass on being included either. Entering a tournament is elective; the organizers should be as free to refuse you as you are to refuse to participate. ((I've been around when a tournament decided that despite not having enough games to fill a store, were going to disallow anyone else use of the empty tables in a game shop that they didn't own... Walking up to the counter and cancelling a few hundred bucks in pre-order had the owner shut them up pretty quick))

Playing any game is elective. Wait, are you being held against your free will, being forced in to playing non-tournament games? Blink twice if you need assistance.

When it comes to it, yes, I do want to play against painted figures. It's called Miniatures Wargaming for a reason.

But I'm willing to play against paper figures, because it's hard to get into the game and I'd rather you play now and have fun, and buy some actual models later, than never play a game, become discouraged, and leave.


As I said, I started by filling out my units with green army soldiers. I was fortunate. My first game was played with models borrowed from a friend, about 3 dozen guardsmen and a Lascannon team. I was later given those models as a gift, and that's how I got started. I bought a second hand Leman Russ Tank that was in very poor condition and revitalized it, comprised the rest of my foot troops with green army men, and made a squadron mate for the tank out of wood. If I hadn't been able to use the wooden tanks and green army men, I probably wouldn't have continued playing, since with 35 guys and a tank you can barely make 500 points, much less the 1500-2000 everyone was playing at. Over time, I figured out what I wanted my army to be and replaced units of green army men and wooden tanks with real models, and now I have Guardsmen, Sisters, and Space Wolves, and take pride in being WYSIWYG when I put my models out on the board.

I'd rather play with you, against your bases with legs or paper cut outs, and have you enjoy the hobby and buy models later, than turn you away to play Dawn of War.

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

By the time the new generation is old enough to afford the game, they're already invested in some other hobby.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

Yes but generally you would be collecting armies in bits&pieces rather than huge blob of plastic waiting to be painted.

Who says newbie has to have 1850 pts armies right off the bat? That's players pushing artificially barrier up. And generally not good especially for newbie who will likely make expensive mistakes with that.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

Yes but generally you would be collecting armies in bits&pieces rather than huge blob of plastic waiting to be painted.

Who says newbie has to have 1850 pts armies right off the bat? That's players pushing artificially barrier up. And generally not good especially for newbie who will likely make expensive mistakes with that.

I found, when I was starting, the bar was set around 1000 points. 500 was the absolute minimum.

From a practical attracting people to the hobby viewpoint: I only had people seem impressed with the game when fully painted and non-proxied models were used.
I don't look at what shortcuts used as "offensive", more as a source of ridicule by the uninitiated.
Though, when you have an opponent that consistently fields and expands these kinds of armies rather than replace elements with "proper" models, it gets rather... tiring to see.
It is an expensive hobby and in the past, GW was a bit nuts so I did not mind people finding alternative supplies of models.
Every time I see paper models, I think of the first Battletech box set I got. I never used the punch out models even once.
But I have been building models since I was 12 so those always came first to me.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

By the time the new generation is old enough to afford the game, they're already invested in some other hobby.

Adult with a regular paycheck here. Between the mortgage, house payments, clothing and feeding children, etc. - I have less money than I did as a teenager to spend on hobbies.

As a high school and college student, I didn't spend $400 in a go, but I did accumulate things. If a table tipped well or I covered an extra shift, I could stop by the store on my way home and pick up a Terminator or a pair of troopers to gradually fill in a regiment. Those added up pretty quickly into good-sized armies.

It points to another trend I've noticed in the hobby. People I see at stores or online make a list and collect the miniatures needed to make that list. In the past, people collected miniatures and made a list out of those miniatures for each game. Both work, but the former probably contributes to the perception that you need to spend $400 to play the game.

 Asmodai wrote:

Adult with a regular paycheck here. Between the mortgage, house payments, clothing and feeding children, etc. - I have less money than I did as a teenager to spend on hobbies.

As a high school and college student, I didn't spend $400 in a go, but I did accumulate things. If a table tipped well or I covered an extra shift, I could stop by the store on my way home and pick up a Terminator or a pair of troopers to gradually fill in a regiment. Those added up pretty quickly into good-sized armies.

It points to another trend I've noticed in the hobby. People I see at stores or online make a list and collect the miniatures needed to make that list. In the past, people collected miniatures and made a list out of those miniatures for each game. Both work, but the former probably contributes to the perception that you need to spend $400 to play the game.

Adult with an irregular paycheck here. I too did most of my army building purchases when I was attending university.
And lets not forget that the increase in prices of 40K has vastly outpaced inflation.
I were a student now, I don't think I would be able to buy half the stuff I bought 10 years ago.
Getting started was far easier back then.

As for the paper mini's. Play the game any way you like, but don't expect everyone to like the game for the same reasons you do. And tournaments are free to set whatever guidelines they choose.
Personally, I cannot imagine anybody wanting to play the current ruleset, even with fully painted models. But 8th edition might well change that.

If you have played this game long enough, you have probably seen some pretty silly models over the year. I still remember when this was a real model in game. Circa 1989.

Youn wrote:
If you have played this game long enough, you have probably seen some pretty silly models over the year. I still remember when this was a real model in game. Circa 1989.

That is a piece of history.
First showed up in Rogue trader as an example of scratch building.
That picture is an example for the custom vehicle points pricing scheme they cam up with.(much later, 3rd or 4th edition?)
I made an excel sheet for those rules.
Silly? Oh there was far worse.
The CSM with the stubby bat wing jump packs were gimpy in the extreme.
My 3 tiny Obliterators raised eyebrows when I dust them off (originals that fit on a 1" base).
The thing is, models give some creative outlet to make an army your own.
I would be happy facing that "Hello Kitty" marine army any day.

I started playing WHFB with cardboard cutouts. And paper terrian.

I'm fine with Proxy40k, as long as everything is the right size, and 3D. If it's on a guardsman sized base, takes up about the same volume that a guardsman does and has 'guardsman' written on it, I'm down with it.