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I'll throw in as a jerk who would turn his nose up at the prospect of playing against 2d paper armies. As much effort as people put in to making their armies look decent for the tabletop, it's a tad disrespectful to play against a fully painted army with something you printed out of your DeskJet, especially at an event or tournament. Between friends and family, do whatever you feel like. But don't expect other opponents to relish the thought of playing against you, or store owners/tournament organizers to even allow you to play at all.

Hell, if people play this game without models and just paper, you can play with paper models.

Tournaments? No. You need actual models.

At home? Use whatever the feth you want. Bottle caps, coke cans, phones, I don't care. It's your house, your rules.

At a gaming store? Eh... Maybe? Make sure you support your gaming space, and probably ask the owner/manager if it's okay. One thing that's pretty legitimate is using paper models UNTIL YOU BUY THE REAL MODELS. So, let's say you want to pick up Grav Centurions, you use paper stand-ins until you save up enough to afford them.

I find it amusing that people are denouncing people who say they would not play against paper models. You're doing the same thing you're accusing them of doing.

Secondly: As others have said, our opinions don't matter. The only ones that matter are those of the people you may actually play against.

As for me...The modeling aspect is part of the game for me. I associate heavy proxying without any movement towards getting/painting the models with power gamers due to past experience, and paper models would create the same associations in my head.
Tournament? Definitely not.
Random man/woman at the game store or elsewhere? Only if they were just getting into 40k and I were teaching them how to play, and they were building up their army (meaning they were buying models as they could paint, and they were actually making progress).
Friend who is just starting to get into the game? Sure, for awhile, but eventually I'd likely stop (same as random guy at the store).

In short...If you're building up and using them as temporary proxies, sure. Otherwise, I'd not play you for long with them, if at all.

 troa wrote:
I find it amusing that people are denouncing people who say they would not play against paper models. You're doing the same thing you're accusing them of doing.

Secondly: As others have said, our opinions don't matter. The only ones that matter are those of the people you may actually play against.

As for me...The modeling aspect is part of the game for me. I associate heavy proxying without any movement towards getting/painting the models with power gamers due to past experience, and paper models would create the same associations in my head.
Tournament? Definitely not.
Random man/woman at the game store or elsewhere? Only if they were just getting into 40k and I were teaching them how to play, and they were building up their army (meaning they were buying models as they could paint, and they were actually making progress).
Friend who is just starting to get into the game? Sure, for awhile, but eventually I'd likely stop (same as random guy at the store).

In short...If you're building up and using them as temporary proxies, sure. Otherwise, I'd not play you for long with them, if at all.

This...

I said earlier no I wouldn't play against a paper army but made the suggestion that if you can't afford the miniatures this is not the hobby for you and suggested maybe the 40k computer games or small kill team or SW games. A big part of the hobby is the modelling, converting and painting side of things and unless we are talking about some really high quality 3D paper prints (which I am assuming the OP is not) I would find it rather disrespectful if someone kept turning up with bits of paper and I was called "grumpy" or whatever because I don't want to put countless hours of effort into my army, not to mention funds and someone else wants to not have to bother.

Some may say that it is unfair on new players but I have and will continue to be probably even more engaged with new players since I tend to be the one in store that staff ask if I'll help out a newbie and give them a game to teach them the ropes since I now play at least three times a week and most weeks it's more like 6-8 games average. In my opinion I am much more appreciative of a new player showing some commitment and buying and painting a single squad at a time and I'll happily take on their single tactical squad with one of mine. I would find it even more offensive if I was one of those new players or god forbid a kid saving up to buy my next box of models while someone else just printed out an army. If someone doesn't want to take the journey of building a full army and putting some love in, there are commission painters who will do that for you if you're not that way inclined. If you can't afford that however and you just want to print an army to save you money it's a slap in the face to everyone that makes that commitment to the hobby and to the gaming group.

As people have said before if you're at home and just playing with you're sister that's fine but my impression since the question is being asked to the wider community is that you want to know if it's acceptable in said community. To me the answer from everyone should be a flat no.

The big issue is where do you draw the line? Do you let people print out a full 1850 point army to play with? you shouldn't. If you're that new you should be playing really small games to get a good grip on the game. how long should someone have to wait for that paper army to get replaced? and how slowly will it be replaced? This is the reason why I am happy that the local store has started giving people bonuses in game for fully painted armies because once people started accepting games against even not undercoated miniatures the quality of the armies aesthetically has really dropped to a point where I have seen even empty bases used for models that people can't be bothered building and painting. Once it was a full marker drone unit... like how hard is a drone to paint? really.

Yes there were paper models back in rogue trader but we have moved on since then so that's not an excuse.

I don't like the tone of some people with their backhanded comments about others who dont want to play an army that isn't miniatures because it would degrade the part of the hobby they enjoy most. People are entitled to their opinions but to me it shows a lack of respect for the people who are making sacrifices financially and with their time to put miniature armies on the table. If you want to play against paper cutouts fine go ahead but, just as I will not appreciate playing against someone who deploys 1500 points of grey plastic, I will not accept a game against whatever your home printer has spat out and I am not a bad person for it.

If I'm wrong OP please feel free to post pictures of your really great 3D paper printed Nids as I really enjoy seeing the ingenuity of people in this hobby and I'm always open to be proved wrong.

While I have no issues with how people arrive at the armies they use, be it purchased models, handcrafted models, or printed representations, when I faced an opponent that fielded paper cut outs in place of actual units without him informing me first, it really did put me out of the game. If he had informed me before hand, or if the cut outs were actually handcrafted models, it would have been less jarring.

My younger brother has been crafting his own models from paper and cardboard for decades, from transformers that actually transform to his first Reaver Titan, he puts a lot of imagination and ingenuity into crafting units he'd like to have yet couldn't afford at the time. It's a joy to play versus his armies because you can appreciate his dedication to the hobby by the effort he puts into crafting his models.

I guess my message is to start the hobby on your terms but don't be satisfied with just your starting point. The hobby is more than the game, it's the artistry, the lore, and the community. Have fun. Talk to you opponents. Build a narrative. Grow. Be inclusive, not exclusive.

And welcome to the hobby!

SJ

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Most of the appeal of 40k is the aesthetic value of the models, and paper models* look like garbage. You can do whatever you like in private, but if you try to bring your paper army to a pickup game you shouldn't expect to find many people willing to play against it. And you have essentially zero chance of getting to use it in any kind of tournament or formal event.

*Unless you are one of the few god-level artists making stuff that looks as good as the plastic kits but takes vastly more time and effort to build. You aren't one of those people.

This.

I'll echo Pr3Mu5 a little-it depends how much is paper. One squad that you have yet to buy in an 1850 game? No biggie.

Three Riptides in a 1,000 point game? Biggie.

It's not just making "the grumps at the game store flinch" it's actually really rude to the store operator to bring them there. It's waving a giant flag saying "I'm here to play but not to buy anything.". And if such an approach was imitated by others, that could seriously damage the support of local events by those in the gaming business.

The same would be true if you brought an all 3d printed army. You'd basically be telling the host that you're there to take advantage of the terrain and space but will never be contributing towards the sole means a business operates-- selling products.

For at home gaming go ahead. For private clubs, it will be about the scope of the mandate of the club. If you want to start a pro paper club, go ahead.

Saddly the responses in this thread are kinda why ive stayed OUT of game stores and only been to GW store here twice.

Go in for a game, my army is primed. get told to leave cuz it dont have 3 colors.. Go in for game to nother store after having put on 3 colors, get told go home it dont have 5 colors. Spend half a year painting an army, play in a tourney to check it out. get told my army is straight gak.. feth playing in stores.

like said before dont care what someone uses 3dprint paper. i enjoy the lore and storyline.. but i enjoy the battles, the dice rolling. id rather play a battle against someone with paper or even unprimed minis then someone whos going to complain about how crappy i painted a tactical marine, how i should have drybrushed instead of washed it a bunch..

I play tabletop wargames for the full aesthetic appearance that the game provides. I've not interest in playing against printed out paper armies. That being said, I'd let you run one of my second armies, or help you find ways of getting real miniatures and getting into painting them. Money is always tight around hobbies but there are plenty of ways to source decent miniatures for relatively cheap (eBay is a good start).

If 40K is really far outside of your budget there are a lot of ways to address that. SWA is an excellent choice - making terrain at home is pretty easy, and you can get into for $20-40 worth of models (second hand or not). Heck, some big buyers could set you up with a dozen models for free. Failing that, maybe skip proper 40K and try some other smaller games first. Money will come with time and you can move into what you want.

I'm a big believer in a proper wargame being a fun, exciting, attractive experience - and that each player should bring "their part" to the game unless someone is hosting (I frequently host large Old West games where I provide everything, people just show up to play). I think it's bad form to show up with unpainted minis, lackluster terrain, no dice, templates, or even knowing the rules. That's my personal opinion, but a lot of people won't agree - and that's fine. I think it'd be a bit rude to show up with a printed paper army unannounced to your opponent. Much in the same way I feel it's a bit rude to run a game at a convention...and when players show up the minis/table/terrain aren't painted/finished etc. Just bad form.

Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

Games Workshop Warhammer World is currently selling a range of paper cut out miniatures as part of their 30th Anniversary Rogue Trader reissue.

ssisal wrote:
Saddly the responses in this thread are kinda why ive stayed OUT of game stores and only been to GW store here twice.

Go in for a game, my army is primed. get told to leave cuz it dont have 3 colors.. Go in for game to nother store after having put on 3 colors, get told go home it dont have 5 colors. Spend half a year painting an army, play in a tourney to check it out. get told my army is straight gak.. feth playing in stores.

like said before dont care what someone uses 3dprint paper. i enjoy the lore and storyline.. but i enjoy the battles, the dice rolling. id rather play a battle against someone with paper or even unprimed minis then someone whos going to complain about how crappy i painted a tactical marine, how i should have drybrushed instead of washed it a bunch..

Oh come on, I'm sure no one at a tournament told you that your army was straight gak. The judges have a grading rubric for painting which most frequently awards points for having at least three colors, having some kind of shading such as a wash, and some kind of highlighting such as drybrushing. If your models don't have one of those things, you don't get the points for it. Most of the time they're not even looking at how neat your final results are, just that you at least made the effort. Base coating in three colors, washing and drybrushing is commonly held as the "tabletop standard", and it is not only a great way to develop your skill and eye as a painter, it's fairly easy and quick to achieve once you have some practice. Those kinds of standards at stores and events aren't put in place so that people can scoff at your army or proclaim themselves gatekeepers over the hobby - they exist to encourage people to learn and develop as painters and take pride in their work. I'm sure if you have any questions about ways you could improve and would be willing to learn, the staff at your local stores would be more than willing to give you some tips. So would everyone who frequents the Painting and Modeling section of this forum.

A game is meant to be a fun bit of leisure time. How you have fun is entirely up to you and no one should hold you hostage for their fun. However, this goes both ways. If someone does not have fun playing with paper models do not be mad at them for not playing with you. Others though will have no problem, I personally wouldn't care but that's because my fun isn't derived primarily from the minis. At the end of the day a game, any game can be played however you and the other players agree that makes it fun for ya'll. No right way to have fun only infinite wrong ways.

OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Less money for gw seems good.

Why are you even here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

I like this game because of the aesthetic, actually.

There isn't much better in the world for me than having a battle with two painted armies against each other.

But thank you for putting everyone who doesn't want to play against cheap looking bits of paper in the same basket.

I don't even play with or against unpainted miniatures anymore. I wouldn't opt out of gaming with paper miniatures on the table because I think the person is cheap or a peasant, but simply that it would be lacking elements I find enjoyable in the hobby. For others that it works for, I hope they have fun.

I still maintain though that it has no place in tournaments or in any venue/event connected with the sale of miniatures.

It's down to the reasoning behind the army, to me. If you're playing a paper army because you're working on a shoestring budget, you want to try out the game/an army/a unit before dumping money into it, and you intend to get models at some point, I will grumble but I'll roll with it. If you're playing a paper army because you're on Martel's whiny bandwagon and have no intention of ever getting any real models, then no. I shall put my monocle back in and sneer with the rest.

The difference here is between "can't" and "won't". If your issue is merely budgetary and you're trying to get a sense of the game before dumping boatloads of money into it you'll get a more favourable response (I will be helpful, answer questions, give recommendations for stretching a small budget further, suggest you look at other, cheaper miniatures games...). If you've got some moral point to make, or don't see why people who have dumped hundreds of hours into their armies might be annoyed to see you trying to sit down at the same table with half an hour's worth of paper and cardboard, or otherwise could build an actual army but choose not to, then I've got no sympathy.

The bit that frequently gets left by the wayside in these discussions in favour of strawmen ("You don't care about the game!"/"You only care about the money!") is that most wargamers care a lot more about the effort involved/whether the army looks good than how much you spent on it. Someone who has spent thousands of dollars on Forge World models and plonked them down unpainted is going to get a much more hostile reception than someone who scrounged together some secondhand Orks on a shoestring budget, scratchbuilt all the vehicles out of cardboard and old toy trucks, and gave the whole lot a solid, respectable paintjob (with watered-down bulk acrylics when miniature paint proved too expensive).

Paper proxies as an end result rather than a stopgap are never going to fly. That doesn't mean you should accept that 40k is ridiculously expensive and give up, that means you should try and find a small-budget approach that lets you end up with models and preserve the illusion of the 41st Milennium we're attempting to create when we play a game, rather than showing up with an army made of graphics glitches.

(For inspiration/an example here's a 'Tyranid' army made of a mixture of Lizardmen models and dinosaur toys: http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/kurindans.html.)

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Well, that was a great way to personally attack almost everyone who's posted in this thread, so good job for that.

In all seriousness, if you are into this game, on the tabletop, you're into the miniatures and their associated narrative and aesthetic qualities. The rules are not that good (at least not at the moment) and there are plenty of other games to play that a frankly better as well as being less expensive in terms of both time and money. 40k and its communities of fans has always been centered around the hobby itself. A person's economic situation has nothing to do with how well they will be accepted - but the time and effort they put into the hobby, and the respect that they show it and other players will. There is nothing fun, for me, in spending hundreds of hours painting a bunch of plastic models to the best of my personal ability if I'm just going to be playing it against paper tokens that took absolutely no time, effort or creativity to produce.

I have seen some awesome paper craft minis, and would have no issues vs'ing them on a table.. but pieces of paper with spezmarine written on it wouldn't make me happy

What if someone printed their models with this printer?

Youn wrote:
What if someone printed their models with this printer?...

Slight difference between paper proxies and advanced 3d printers.

And I suspect that you'll find pretty quickly that 3d-printing your army isn't significantly cheaper than just going and buying it off GW.

Actually, it is cheaper in plastic. As 1 roll of ABS is enough to print about 15 rhinos. One roll costs 22.50.

But, having said that, most home built 3d printers take alot of messing with to actually print in high enough resolution to actually be acceptable for miniatures.

For reference, I own a reprap prusa i3.

I only really use it to print extra weapon for things like my razorbacks. And other items like objective markers.

Also, that bust is a paper bust.

I would play you, but you would have to make sure I didnt bring my squirt gun, because I dont think I could help myself with the temptation

If you go to the tutorials section of Dakka Dakka there is a poster who has a bunch of thrifty guides. He has a youtube channel, and on there he describes how to make some pretty printed card models.


And put away the super soakers, I believe he does even suggest lamination.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Well, that was a great way to personally attack almost everyone who's posted in this thread, so good job for that.

In all seriousness, if you are into this game, on the tabletop, you're into the miniatures and their associated narrative and aesthetic qualities. The rules are not that good (at least not at the moment) and there are plenty of other games to play that a frankly better as well as being less expensive in terms of both time and money. 40k and its communities of fans has always been centered around the hobby itself. A person's economic situation has nothing to do with how well they will be accepted - but the time and effort they put into the hobby, and the respect that they show it and other players will. There is nothing fun, for me, in spending hundreds of hours painting a bunch of plastic models to the best of my personal ability if I'm just going to be playing it against paper tokens that took absolutely no time, effort or creativity to produce.

It's Tradito one of the most hostile users of this forum; what did you expect?


Either way I wouldn't play 40k with you OP; I would play SW:A or Kill Team. But not one where I had to move an army of models to the store, you stand a chance to break them everytime they're moved.

 Elbows wrote:
I play tabletop wargames for the full aesthetic appearance that the game provides. I've not interest in playing against printed out paper armies. That being said, I'd let you run one of my second armies, or help you find ways of getting real miniatures and getting into painting them. Money is always tight around hobbies but there are plenty of ways to source decent miniatures for relatively cheap (eBay is a good start).

If 40K is really far outside of your budget there are a lot of ways to address that. SWA is an excellent choice - making terrain at home is pretty easy, and you can get into for $20-40 worth of models (second hand or not). Heck, some big buyers could set you up with a dozen models for free. Failing that, maybe skip proper 40K and try some other smaller games first. Money will come with time and you can move into what you want.

I'm a big believer in a proper wargame being a fun, exciting, attractive experience - and that each player should bring "their part" to the game unless someone is hosting (I frequently host large Old West games where I provide everything, people just show up to play). I think it's bad form to show up with unpainted minis, lackluster terrain, no dice, templates, or even knowing the rules. That's my personal opinion, but a lot of people won't agree - and that's fine. I think it'd be a bit rude to show up with a printed paper army unannounced to your opponent. Much in the same way I feel it's a bit rude to run a game at a convention...and when players show up the minis/table/terrain aren't painted/finished etc. Just bad form.

Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

I think this is a well-measured, excellent response. I completely agree.

!00% I'd play against paper. Hell I play against bare bases and plastic disks for drop pods. Its about rolling dice, taking minis off the table, having fun and relaxing. This is a game people you already use your imagination to pew pew why not just imagine a fully painted model? Maybe we play for different reasons but me personally I could still visualize a paper space marine chopping through a squad of firewarriors just as easily as a plastic one.

Maybe I'm just lucky and my local game store is chill but we spend money on soda, candy, books, dice, dice bags, they have 3d printed goods; its not just 40k keeping them afloat, magic alone does that. Just to make it clear I have a reaver, 4 knights, two warhounds, a storm lord, too much Tau.. too much.. Nids, GK, Eldar, Skittari, Daemons, Inquisition and you can use any of them if you play w/ me hell its prolly the only time I'll ever see my titans in use. Plus letting someone play with a model they never thought they would see let alone use puts a smile on my face xD. Some people aren't lucky enough to have the spare cash its no reason to belittle them they could be really great people and you are passing up the chance to form a friendship just because they don't have the same level of investment as you? That's just...

Instead of putting someone down for having no minis how about you offer to let them use one of your own armies? So instead of saying "No, I wont play you because you have no/paper minis." look at the fact someone is interested in the hobby and be like "Hey Instead of playing that paper SM army why not try a game with one of these?" Maybe you could even sell them that old army you have that's gathering dust to fuel your current one.

 Lance845 wrote:
Most of the appeal of 40k FOR YOU is the aesthetic value of the models.

You cannot speak for anyone else or the value they get out of any other aspect of the hobby.

Yes, thank you for stating the obvious that when I post my opinion on something it is, in fact, my opinion. If you want to play against models that look like trash go ahead, I'm not going to stop you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

Alternatively, the aesthetic value of the models is a major part of the appeal of the game for many people, myself included. It has nothing to do with "LOL YOU PEASANT", a game against an unpainted or paper cutout army is just not something I enjoy because it looks like on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBoy wrote:
Instead of putting someone down for having no minis how about you offer to let them use one of your own armies?

Because some of us don't have other armies, and even the people that do don't usually haul a bunch of extra armies to a random pickup game.

The use of flat paper terrain templates seems (sadly) common in Warmachine. I'm surprised no-one's taken the next step and started using cylinders of the appropriate diameter and height (the "actual" height of a model is defined in its stats, and doesn't actually match the size of the miniature) with a picture of what it's meant to be stuck to the front (or its name written on, I suppose).

That'd work better with the rules of 40k than flat bits of paper.

I wouldn't look down on you for doing this - the arguments that "40k's expensive and if you can't afford it, then do something else" are pathetic; snobbery and envy aren't pleasant to see - but I wouldn't be keen to play you. Like Peregrine, part of the appeal for me is two painted forces on a modelled and painted battlefield. If you've got friends who are fine with it, then more power to you.