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Instead of a futile comparison of scions vs tac marines, can we discuss something pertinent to the guard. Like whether we can be competitive without scions or with a neutered version of them?

IG can be competitive with scions removed completely, if necessary. I'm not advocating this, but just as a demonstration of the robust nature of the list.

Martel732 wrote:
IG can be competitive with scions removed completely, if necessary. I'm not advocating this, but just as a demonstration of the robust nature of the list.

Okay, how exactly?

By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

I suppose you could put those points into beefing up your gunline with artillery, AA and meatshields, but has this been done in practice?

Yes but at a competitive level why would you run a list that's almost as good when you could the list that is good

I've had good results using rough riders in place of scion they are almost as efficient

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes but at a competitive level why would you run a list that's almost as good when you could the list that is good

I've had good results using rough riders in place of scion they are almost as efficient

I think roughriders are a surprisingly good countercharge unit, but they can't get into the backlines as easily as storm troopers. A smart opponent will pick off roughriders if they aren't hidden well. On top of that, they aren't troops. They are decent, but don't fill the void of scions.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

I suppose you could put those points into beefing up your gunline with artillery, AA and meatshields, but has this been done in practice?

Someone in my play group refuses to use scions as a matter of honor and he's still undefeated. Of course, he's rocking 200 conscripts usually. There is no where to deep strike and you can't physically move to 2/3 of the objectives after turn 2. With the new determination of going first, he can sometimes keep lastalons on repulsors from being able to shoot his artillery. It's awesome and sad at the same time.

I don't think this is really a case of the IG being some horrible death machine. I haven't extensively analyzed them vs say DE or Nids. But they can pimp slap marines around no problem without scions. The question is whether marines are any kind of yardstick? They weren't in 5th. And this game looks a lot like 5th. Marines were victims in 5th. Only the snowflake marines were worth a damn in 5th. Which, yes, BA were part of that squad. I'm feeling less and less ashamed about 5th every day at this point.

It's also a question of whether the current competitive marine lists are optimised for the meta and losing or are marines getting slapped about because most players are investing to many pts in AV and high AP weaponry that they needed in 7th while deriding the anti infantry units as bad because they were in 7th despite now needing them.

I look at a lot of lists and go it's great for hunting other marines but how do you kill a hoard?

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

I suppose you could put those points into beefing up your gunline with artillery, AA and meatshields, but has this been done in practice?

Someone in my play group refuses to use scions as a matter of honor and he's still undefeated. Of course, he's rocking 200 conscripts usually. There is no where to deep strike and you can't physically move to 2/3 of the objectives after turn 2. With the new determination of going first, he can sometimes keep lastalons on repulsors from being able to shoot his artillery. It's awesome and sad at the same time.

I don't think this is really a case of the IG being some horrible death machine. I haven't extensively analyzed them vs say DE or Nids. But they can pimp slap marines around no problem without scions. The question is whether marines are any kind of yardstick? They weren't in 5th. And this game looks a lot like 5th. Marines were victims in 5th. Only the snowflake marines were worth a damn in 5th. Which, yes, BA were part of that squad. I'm feeling less and less ashamed about 5th every day at this point.

The cruel irony is that sounds like the best answer to scion spam yet...

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

I suppose you could put those points into beefing up your gunline with artillery, AA and meatshields, but has this been done in practice?

Someone in my play group refuses to use scions as a matter of honor and he's still undefeated. Of course, he's rocking 200 conscripts usually. There is no where to deep strike and you can't physically move to 2/3 of the objectives after turn 2. With the new determination of going first, he can sometimes keep lastalons on repulsors from being able to shoot his artillery. It's awesome and sad at the same time.

I don't think this is really a case of the IG being some horrible death machine. I haven't extensively analyzed them vs say DE or Nids. But they can pimp slap marines around no problem without scions. The question is whether marines are any kind of yardstick? They weren't in 5th. And this game looks a lot like 5th. Marines were victims in 5th. Only the snowflake marines were worth a damn in 5th. Which, yes, BA were part of that squad. I'm feeling less and less ashamed about 5th every day at this point.

The cruel irony is that sounds like the best answer to scion spam yet...

The BAO winner mentioned this in the FLG podcast, mass bubblewrap is good against scions/commanders etc and conscripts+brimstones are the best options.

U02dah4 wrote:

Codex SM lost librarius rule adeptus astartes psyckers may not be drawn from the black templars chapter

A ok. I thought about a ruling that is directly connected to a unit (e. g. something like taking hellblasters prevents you from picking devastators)

U02dah4 wrote:
Templates were the best answer to hoards half reason people struggle with conscripts is there areally almost no equivalents

In my gaming group templates caused the players to took long time setting their model as far spread as possible. It was just time consuming. So i like the loss of them.
But those weapons need now one of those proposed solutions.

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

Feel free to carry on with your explanation.

My try would be using standard inf squads around a commissar and company commander. Defensive it is a lot worse as you would loose 1 model in each squad. Offensive BS 4+ will compensate to a certain point as only 2 units benefitting from the orders.
But to be honest the possibilty to increase the inf squad size to 20 will be needed to make them halve of an alternative to conscripts.

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

So far you've advocated the Standard Guard Squad, The Scions and Conscripts as miscosted. You've literally banned all of our troop choices.

At this point you might just want to admit you want AM banned.

Every troop choice the guard have access to is under-costed.

Look at Guardians, kabalites (these are the closest examples I can think of) - 2 points more expensive - basically the same same stats the only difference is a vet squad can take 4 weapon options per 10 while guardians can only take 1 (and pay more for it) and kabalites can only take 2. It's a gaking joke that vets are cheaper than these obviously worse units. A shuricat has only 12 inch range and a splinter rifle is quite literally the equal of a lasgun - it is better vs heavy infantry but worse against light vehicles - they are equal shooting at each other. Lets not kid ourselves though - the firepower from a vet unit comes from its 3 plasma guns and auto-cannon that is gets for basically the same cost that ether of these units can field a single special or heavy weapon. They have the same toughness and save too...it is quite literally a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

So far you've advocated the Standard Guard Squad, The Scions and Conscripts as miscosted. You've literally banned all of our troop choices.

At this point you might just want to admit you want AM banned.

They all deserve point increases - or all other troop choices in the game need point reductions.

Conscripts should be 4 points and have and not be able to receive orders. Gardsmen should be 6 points (like ork boys). Vets should be 8 (like guardians). Scions I think their cost is correct (they'd still be good at 11) for the base unit BUT all gards weapons need to cost the same as other imperium units. Except for the melle weapons - the reduction of those weapons is justified due to their decreased strength and attack characteristics.

Firefox1 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Codex SM lost librarius rule adeptus astartes psyckers may not be drawn from the black templars chapter

A ok. I thought about a ruling that is directly connected to a unit (e. g. something like taking hellblasters prevents you from picking devastators)

U02dah4 wrote:
Templates were the best answer to hoards half reason people struggle with conscripts is there areally almost no equivalents

In my gaming group templates caused the players to took long time setting their model as far spread as possible. It was just time consuming. So i like the loss of them.
But those weapons need now one of those proposed solutions.

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

Feel free to carry on with your explanation.

My try would be using standard inf squads around a commissar and company commander. Defensive it is a lot worse as you would loose 1 model in each squad. Offensive BS 4+ will compensate to a certain point as only 2 units benefitting from the orders.
But to be honest the possibilty to increase the inf squad size to 20 will be needed to make them halve of an alternative to conscripts.

I agree that templates made things time consuming but they did keep hoards in check and there is a compromise it's having attacks proportionate to the number of models in the squad your targetting

 Xenomancers wrote:
Every troop choice the guard have access to is under-costed.

Look at Guardians, kabalites (these are the closest examples I can think of) - 2 points more expensive - basically the same same stats the only difference is a vet squad can take 4 weapon options per 10 while guardians can only take 1 (and pay more for it) and kabalites can only take 2. It's a gaking joke that vets are cheaper than these obviously worse units. A shuricat has only 12 inch range and a splinter rifle is quite literally the equal of a lasgun - it is better vs heavy infantry but worse against light vehicles - they are equal shooting at each other. Lets not kid ourselves though - the firepower from a vet unit comes from its 3 plasma guns and auto-cannon that is gets for basically the same cost that ether of these units can field a single special or heavy weapon. They have the same toughness and save too...it is quite literally a joke.

You realize cost is partly determined within the context of other options within the army and not just a direct comparison of units between armies right? Guard infantry are cheap because we don't have Magnus, or Guilliman, or crazy Eldar fliers. You make troops in the guard on par with Eldar troops pointswise, then you need to massively buff our characters and vehicles.


Edit: Wow, you're seriously proposing making basic guardsmen 6 points? You just want guard to be garbage tier again and aren't even trying at this point.

I remember when this thread had less whining.

U02dah4 wrote:
It's also a question of whether the current competitive marine lists are optimised for the meta and losing or are marines getting slapped about because most players are investing to many pts in AV and high AP weaponry that they needed in 7th while deriding the anti infantry units as bad because they were in 7th despite now needing them.

I look at a lot of lists and go it's great for hunting other marines but how do you kill a hoard?

If you don't load up on heavy weapons like lascannons, nidzilla and mechdar run you over even worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

So far you've advocated the Standard Guard Squad, The Scions and Conscripts as miscosted. You've literally banned all of our troop choices.

At this point you might just want to admit you want AM banned.

Did I ever mention banning? Did I ever mention banning scatbikes or WK? Or 6th ed wave serpents? Or 5th ed GK?

"Feel free to carry on with your explanation. "

I already did. The guy with 200 conscripts + artillery + lascannons. I can't give you the exact specifics, because I don't play guard. I'd argue that all T3 5+ infantry with range weapons are undercosted in 8th, though. There's not much mathematical room down there, though.

Holy feth. What is going on in this thread now?

This is a case of either children being on this forum or people who lack intelligence. One cannot compare basic troops choices across armies. Each army has a fleshed out style and everything interacts differently. This is getting absurd.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Every troop choice the guard have access to is under-costed.

Look at Guardians, kabalites (these are the closest examples I can think of) - 2 points more expensive - basically the same same stats the only difference is a vet squad can take 4 weapon options per 10 while guardians can only take 1 (and pay more for it) and kabalites can only take 2. It's a gaking joke that vets are cheaper than these obviously worse units. A shuricat has only 12 inch range and a splinter rifle is quite literally the equal of a lasgun - it is better vs heavy infantry but worse against light vehicles - they are equal shooting at each other. Lets not kid ourselves though - the firepower from a vet unit comes from its 3 plasma guns and auto-cannon that is gets for basically the same cost that ether of these units can field a single special or heavy weapon. They have the same toughness and save too...it is quite literally a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

So far you've advocated the Standard Guard Squad, The Scions and Conscripts as miscosted. You've literally banned all of our troop choices.

At this point you might just want to admit you want AM banned.

They all deserve point increases - or all other troop choices in the game need point reductions.

Conscripts should be 4 points and have and not be able to receive orders. Gardsmen should be 6 points (like ork boys). Vets should be 8 (like guardians). Scions I think their cost is correct (they'd still be good at 11) for the base unit BUT all gards weapons need to cost the same as other imperium units. Except for the melle weapons - the reduction of those weapons is justified due to their decreased strength and attack characteristics.

I agree and I disagree
Points wise guardsman are fine adapt you have the tools to fight them
SM look to your tac squads you forgot them in 7th I know
Orks quit your complaining green tide is one of the best now and perfect for slaughtering guardsmen.
Tau commander spam is great vs marines but pure kroot is the way to go against the guard yes I know they don't shoot.
Inquisition OK GW hate you so you die

When it comes to guard
Other than the deathstrike missile which needs a massive boost and leamon russes/valkyrie that need a smaller boost they are an army that's generally consistent it's the one list that is great. Sure their troops are strong but what is guard if not about the troops. Other armies make up for it in other areas.

When you look at other armies that not always true sanguinery guard need a boost all space marine infantry could do with a 1pt reduction tau need to be reminded that you don't have to shoot like storm troopers. Skittarii need scout and to ignore mandatory HQ's.

More often than not it should be about looking at what isn't played and making it better and looking at the tools you have and don't use don't punish what works because something will always replace it

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Every troop choice the guard have access to is under-costed.

Look at Guardians, kabalites (these are the closest examples I can think of) - 2 points more expensive - basically the same same stats the only difference is a vet squad can take 4 weapon options per 10 while guardians can only take 1 (and pay more for it) and kabalites can only take 2. It's a gaking joke that vets are cheaper than these obviously worse units. A shuricat has only 12 inch range and a splinter rifle is quite literally the equal of a lasgun - it is better vs heavy infantry but worse against light vehicles - they are equal shooting at each other. Lets not kid ourselves though - the firepower from a vet unit comes from its 3 plasma guns and auto-cannon that is gets for basically the same cost that ether of these units can field a single special or heavy weapon. They have the same toughness and save too...it is quite literally a joke.

You realize cost is partly determined within the context of other options within the army and not just a direct comparison of units between armies right? Guard infantry are cheap because we don't have Magnus, or Guilliman, or crazy Eldar fliers. You make troops in the guard on par with Eldar troops pointswise, then you need to massively buff our characters and vehicles.


Edit: Wow, you're seriously proposing making basic guardsmen 6 points? You just want guard to be garbage tier again and aren't even trying at this point.

I'm making direct comparisons to existing rules. How can you say I'm not trying? Gaurd are clearly over performing and it's easy to realize why - they are too cheap. Gaurd have access to buttloads of lords of war too. A Baneblade weilding a volcano cannon could easily 1 shot magnus. They can take an Imperial knight. They can take Celestine in their army - or guiliman. You can't honestly be saying guard infantry are so cheap because they don't have access to good stuff?

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Holy feth. What is going on in this thread now?

This is a case of either children being on this forum or people who lack intelligence. One cannot compare basic troops choices across armies. Each army has a fleshed out style and everything interacts differently. This is getting absurd.

I'm not doing that. T3 and 5+ armor are mathematically better than they were in 7th. That's just empirically true. So is Str 3 shooting, btw. The tourney results are also showing this to be empirically true.

Martel732 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
It's also a question of whether the current competitive marine lists are optimised for the meta and losing or are marines getting slapped about because most players are investing to many pts in AV and high AP weaponry that they needed in 7th while deriding the anti infantry units as bad because they were in 7th despite now needing them.

I look at a lot of lists and go it's great for hunting other marines but how do you kill a hoard?

If you don't load up on heavy weapons like lascannons, nidzilla and mechdar run you over even worse.




Well then the problem isn't guard it's nidzilla and mechdar forcing you to only pick weapons to counter them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Holy feth. What is going on in this thread now?

This is a case of either children being on this forum or people who lack intelligence. One cannot compare basic troops choices across armies. Each army has a fleshed out style and everything interacts differently. This is getting absurd.

I'm not doing that. T3 and 5+ armor are mathematically better than they were in 7th. That's just empirically true. So is Str 3 shooting, btw. The tourney results are also showing this to be empirically true.

Strength 4 shooting is also better

But can't be taken in the same numbers. And is not really the main point. Str 3 shooting isn't really the problem. It's the icing on the cake. It's the point investment to remove T3 5+ bodies in a REASONABLE amount of time.

"SM look to your tac squads you forgot them in 7th I know "

This is the best they have ever been, and they are still gak. Always have been gak, always will be gak. The generalist curse in 40K.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Every troop choice the guard have access to is under-costed.

Look at Guardians, kabalites (these are the closest examples I can think of) - 2 points more expensive - basically the same same stats the only difference is a vet squad can take 4 weapon options per 10 while guardians can only take 1 (and pay more for it) and kabalites can only take 2. It's a gaking joke that vets are cheaper than these obviously worse units. A shuricat has only 12 inch range and a splinter rifle is quite literally the equal of a lasgun - it is better vs heavy infantry but worse against light vehicles - they are equal shooting at each other. Lets not kid ourselves though - the firepower from a vet unit comes from its 3 plasma guns and auto-cannon that is gets for basically the same cost that ether of these units can field a single special or heavy weapon. They have the same toughness and save too...it is quite literally a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By leveraging the other miscosted units in their list, of course.

So far you've advocated the Standard Guard Squad, The Scions and Conscripts as miscosted. You've literally banned all of our troop choices.

At this point you might just want to admit you want AM banned.

They all deserve point increases - or all other troop choices in the game need point reductions.

Conscripts should be 4 points and have and not be able to receive orders. Gardsmen should be 6 points (like ork boys). Vets should be 8 (like guardians). Scions I think their cost is correct (they'd still be good at 11) for the base unit BUT all gards weapons need to cost the same as other imperium units. Except for the melle weapons - the reduction of those weapons is justified due to their decreased strength and attack characteristics.

I agree and I disagree
Points wise guardsman are fine adapt you have the tools to fight them
SM look to your tac squads you forgot them in 7th I know
Orks quit your complaining green tide is one of the best now and perfect for slaughtering guardsmen.
Tau commander spam is great vs marines but pure kroot is the way to go against the guard yes I know they don't shoot.
Inquisition OK GW hate you so you die

When it comes to guard
Other than the deathstrike missile which needs a massive boost and leamon russes/valkyrie that need a smaller boost they are an army that's generally consistent it's the one list that is great. Sure their troops are strong but what is guard if not about the troops. Other armies make up for it in other areas.

When you look at other armies that not always true sanguinery guard need a boost all space marine infantry could do with a 1pt reduction tau need to be reminded that you don't have to shoot like storm troopers. Skittarii need scout and to ignore mandatory HQ's.

More often than not it should be about looking at what isn't played and making it better and looking at the tools you have and don't use don't punish what works because something will always replace it

OMG - again with the tacs - they are garbage. Why? They can only take 1 heavy per 5 and cost about the same as a fully loaded vet unit with autocannons and plasma. It's readily apparent that the vet unit is better than tac marines. I'm fine with them being better than tac marines (I would never put a tac marine in a list ever - they are total donkey gak).

A standard tac marine with no buffs kills 1.78 pts of conscripts within rapid fire range. A conscript with no buff kills 0.96 pts of marines. Those two numbers would have to be very different for tac marines to be a viable solution. Note: which unit has access to better buffs?

Where the feth are you getting these numbers?

Tac marine: 2*.6666*.66666.*.666666*3 = 1.78
Conscript: 2*.33333*.33333*.333333*13 = 0.97

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Holy feth. What is going on in this thread now?

This is a case of either children being on this forum or people who lack intelligence. One cannot compare basic troops choices across armies. Each army has a fleshed out style and everything interacts differently. This is getting absurd.

Yeah - that's not actually how it works. Also - it's totally possible for armies to have different fighting styles (like long/mid/short/cc/glass cannon/low damage tank) and still be balanced against each other. It's rather simple when we can simulate a game quickly using mathematics. Right now with the majority of gard units balance is laughable.

Also - what fighting style exactly do the guard have that warrants their troops being too cheap for their abilities? The fact that they are almost always on the defensive - which is practically always an advantage to begin with? (can make better use of cover - and play reactionary)??? How bad of shape are gaurd HQ, HS, FA, and ELITE, options in that they need to have over powered troops?

I still disagree with you that troops choices can be compared across armies This isn't some MOBA where the game developers make or lose money on the balance of the game. The sheer number of units, armies, and combinations ensure that you're not in your house, with calculators and Excel spreadsheets running the numbers on what is balanced or not. Get a grip. Just admit you're as biased against the guard as I am for them.

Well I'd say that we're shoe horned into taking artillery as our HS as our MBT is hot garbage. Our AA is pretty bad. I don't even really like the Wyvern anymore since my army doesn't really need more anti troop capability. It's really difficult to fight vehicle heavy or durable infantry lists.

Our HQs are for buffs, not going to do much offensively.

Our FA options are quite balanced but if we didn't want BDEs then you'd rarely see much. I don't own a Hellhound but the fact it's main weapon is randomized makes it extremely unappealing to me personally. I love rough riders but they tend to come in on an empty part of the board to chase an OBJ and stay out of LoS.

Our elites, while offering many options, are quite unpalatable. I wanted Ratlings to be useful but they're not. Initially in 8th I had trouble narrowing down my elites but now it's basically 2 commissars with boltguns and an Astropath.

My army is mostly infantry squads. I think they're right where they should be. I need tons of them to do anything!