Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CplPunishment wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah but it's always hitting on 4s since it has to move every turn.

So the probability is that 4 autocannons, 1 lascannon and 2 krak missiles hit each turn. That will put a respectable amount of wounds on most targets. I would get one if I had the cash!

As a long time Vendetta owner I am 100% getting one of these models! you can load it up with tons of missiles and really bring on the pain. Stock its around 200 points and with all the hellstrike missiles you're looking at a near 300 price tag but its a helluva lot of shots (8 autcannon shots, 2 lascannon, and 4 better than Krak missiles) on a tough platform that can self repair each turn. Unfortunately it can't hover to take advantage of the BS 3 but I think that was a way to ensure its hitting on regular guard stats, much like the Vulture has a bonus against ground targets.

I totally would love one of it wasn't outrageously expensive, don't get me wrong. We need all the AT help we can get and this is an excellent platform.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah but it's always hitting on 4s since it has to move every turn.

So the probability is that 4 autocannons, 1 lascannon and 2 krak missiles hit each turn. That will put a respectable amount of wounds on most targets. I would get one if I had the cash!

As a long time Vendetta owner I am 100% getting one of these models! you can load it up with tons of missiles and really bring on the pain. Stock its around 200 points and with all the hellstrike missiles you're looking at a near 300 price tag but its a helluva lot of shots (8 autcannon shots, 2 lascannon, and 4 better than Krak missiles) on a tough platform that can self repair each turn. Unfortunately it can't hover to take advantage of the BS 3 but I think that was a way to ensure its hitting on regular guard stats, much like the Vulture has a bonus against ground targets.

I just thought of a nasty no-conscript, no-scion list:

Battalion: +3 CP
x3 Company Commanders, Bolter, Chainsword 93
x5 Infantry Squads 200

Battallion: +3CP
x2 Company Commanders, Bolter, Chainsword 62
x5 Infantry squads 200

Flyer Wing: +1CP
1445 points worth of Thunderbolts! Should come out to about 5 assuming they are between 200-300 pts as you said. I don't have the FW book for exact pricing.

Battleforged: +3CP

Total CP: 10
Total points: Approx 2000

Think this could take on Storm Raven spam?

A loaded thunderbolt is 270 points. A loaded vendetta is 230 points.

Always hitting on 4s? So it's as accurate as a hovering vendetta, but isn't a sitting duck.

So firepower-wise the question is would you rather hit with 3 lascannon shots or 1 lascannon, 4 autocannons, and 2 hellstrike missiles. I'd love to see the wound math on both the vendetta and the thunderbolt.

I'd take the Vendetta any day all day, and only the Thunderbolt for if I expect to shoot anything other than vehicles and elites seriously. I've seen good things from this little bird, from torching half a Helldrake to blapping a Magnus twice in overwatch with LCs. Good stuff.

There is an argument to be made with a twin LC and two Hellstrike missile Vulture as well. It's even cheaper than a Vendetta although you do lose out on some dice rolls.

So I just did some math.

Average thunderbolt damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 4.66
Vs Russ = 6.26
Vs predator/rhino = 7.9
Also average 3.14 unsaved wounds vs marines

Average vendetta (stationary) damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 4.65
Vs Russ = 5.85
Vs predator/rhino = 5.85
Also average 2.07 unsaved wounds vs marines

ThePorcupine wrote:
So I just did some math.

Average thunderbolt damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 4.66
Vs Russ = 6.26
Vs predator/rhino = 7.9
Also average 3.14 unsaved wounds vs marines

Average vendetta (stationary) damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 4.65
Vs Russ = 5.85
Vs predator/rhino = 5.85
Also average 2.07 unsaved wounds vs marines

That's math for a 270 point thunderbolt, right?

Right.

ThePorcupine wrote:
A loaded thunderbolt is 270 points. A loaded vendetta is 230 points.

Always hitting on 4s? So it's as accurate as a hovering vendetta, but isn't a sitting duck.

So firepower-wise the question is would you rather hit with 3 lascannon shots or 1 lascannon, 4 autocannons, and 2 hellstrike missiles. I'd love to see the wound math on both the vendetta and the thunderbolt.

That means my theoretical list has an extra 95 points to play with... That's more than enough for Special/Heavy weapons, or whatever "seasoning" you can buy for that price. Remove bolters from Commanders and you've got a full 100 points to play with.
That's 100 Guardsmen.
5 Company Commanders (10 orders)
5 "Flying tanks"
and whatever you want to buy for 100pts.
If only I had the cash for forgeworld...

Some more fun math.

After figuring out how well vendettas and thunderbolts do against armor on average I wanted to compare them to some other typical anti-armor. First up are the 3 russ loadouts that one could classify as "anti-armor." Multimeltas are the only legitimate anti-armor sponson choice, and even outperform plasma cannons against all 3 vehicle types (assuming within 24 inches of course). Also keep in mind multimeltas and demolishers are very short ranged so it's likely enemy vehicles will simply stay out of range, or the russ will have to move to get all weapons in range, and thus the moving profile is the more likely one.

Average Pask 259pts (everything in range) + battlecannon + lascannon + 2 multimeltas damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 5.17 stationary (4.45 moving)
Vs russ = 6.45 (5.58 moving)
Vs predator/rhino = 8.08 (7.01 moving)

Average Pask 277pts (everything in range) + demolisher + lascannon + 2 multimeltas damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 5.99 stationary (5.59 moving)
Vs russ = 7.76 (6.89 moving)
Vs predator/rhino = 8.74 (7.67 moving)

Average Pask 262pts (everything in range) + vanquisher + lascannon + 2 multimeltas damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 4.94 stationary (4.22 moving)
Vs russ = 6.05 (5.18 moving)
Vs predator/rhino = 7.55 (6.48 moving)

Next manticores; the "anti-armor" artillery. And seeing as how manticores are roughly half the price relative to the other anti-armor choices I'm looking at, I think a more useful comparison would be 2 manticores to get a feeling of a similar points-worth of all options.

Average manticore 133pts damage per turn vs vehicles. Assuming heavy bolter is out of range (hide, dummy). And assuming you're not moving (stay put, dummy).
Vs landraider = 2.33 stationary (2 manticores = 4.66)
Vs russ = 3.11 stationary (2 manticores = 6.22)
Vs predator/rhino = 3.11 stationary (2 manticores = 6.22)

Now for something silly. The dreaded 4-man special weapon scion command squad. Assuming deepstriking next to a vehicle in rapid-fire range. Also assuming no re-rolling orders since I'm not sure how to factor that in. So just picture the damage a smidge more if there's orders.

Average scion rapid plasma gun x4 damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 3.56
Vs russ = 4.44
Vs predator/rhino = 5.92

Average scion melta gun x4 damage per turn vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 3.89 (4.95 within 9 inches)
Vs russ = 4.66 (5.95 within 9 inches)
Vs predator/rhino = 6.21 (7.93 within 9 inches)

Average damage of 10 man scion squad given FRFSRF vs vehicles.
Vs landraider = 1 (about 2 damage within 9 inches)
Vs russ = 1.33 (about 2.66 damage within 9 inches)
Vs predator/rhino = 1.33 (about 2.66 damage within 9 inches)

So to keep conversation going what kind of regiment rules do you all think they will give us guardsmen? Maybe some synergy with hqs?

 Cptskillet wrote:
So to keep conversation going what kind of regiment rules do you all think they will give us guardsmen? Maybe some synergy with hqs?

Id like to see some playstyle/famous regiment specific ones. i.e. Steel Legion = bonus to chimeras/tauroxs or riding in them, Cadia= accurate lasguns or generic bonus for balanced army (ala Ultramarines) Valhallan= Hordes, Mordian Iron Guard = bonus to leadership or morale rerolls Catachan= -1 to hit (its popular these days) Vostroyan= mastercrafted rerolls a single 1 Tallarn= certain unit types gain outflank.

but I would also like RESTRICTIONS. Like the only unimpeded regiments would be Cadians, and others would maybe be Steel legion must have dedicated transports, Catachans cannot have conscripts, valhallans MUST have conscripts, vostroyans have to buy certain upgrades (like if they brough back carapace armor).

My brother and I were discussing this earlier and he said the same thing about catachans getting -1 to hit ala raven guard since jungle fighters(also my current army, I am undefeated with my rambos!) Maybe a buff to flamers and melee since in fluff they tend to love it.

I think that's actually a really bad idea for guard.

I mean, it's flavorful and I WISH it was doable like marine chapters, but there's a big difference between guard and marines. A marine player can buy a crapload of generic marines, paint them green, and say "I have a salamanders army and get to use salamanders rules" and everyone will look at his army and agree.

Every guard army has its own individual models (which are 90% of the time really expensive and hard to find, mind you). You can't simply paint your cadians a particular color and claim to be valhallans or krieg. Nobody's gonna let you get away with that gak. 99% of what you can find in stores are cadians. 99% of guard players have just cadians. Cadians is all they'll be able to play. Even if new models come out for other regiments, you'll need to buy 100+ infantry of that regiment. You cannot realistically say "sorry, guard players. spend $300 before you can play with these rules lol."

ThePorcupine wrote:
I think that's actually a really bad idea for guard.

I mean, it's flavorful and I WISH it was doable like marine chapters, but there's a big difference between guard and marines. A marine player can buy a crapload of generic marines, paint them green, and say "I have a salamanders army and get to use salamanders rules" and everyone will look at his army and agree.

Every guard army has its own individual models (which are 90% of the time really expensive and hard to find, mind you). You can't simply paint your cadians a particular color and claim to be valhallans or krieg. Nobody's gonna let you get away with that gak. 99% of what you can find in stores are cadians. 99% of guard players have just cadians. Cadians is all they'll be able to play. Even if new models come out for other regiments, you'll need to buy 100+ infantry of that regiment. You cannot realistically say "sorry, guard players. spend $300 before you can play with these rules lol."

I don't see why you couldn't give Cadian models the Catachan or other regiment keywords. It's a big galaxy. Cadian pattern armor is pretty widespread in fluff anyway. Unless there's a Valhallan rule for cold weather fighting, what's to say you don't have a regiment that uses Valhallan tactics (waves of conscripts and some dude who is close to but not quite unlike chenkov) but is issued the very common Cadian pattern armor?

I mean right now I run my Cadian models under the Catachan keyword with Sergeant "Barker". Tossed on a Cadian helmet and shoulder pad on Harker and now he's good to go.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I think that's actually a really bad idea for guard.

I mean, it's flavorful and I WISH it was doable like marine chapters, but there's a big difference between guard and marines. A marine player can buy a crapload of generic marines, paint them green, and say "I have a salamanders army and get to use salamanders rules" and everyone will look at his army and agree.

Every guard army has its own individual models (which are 90% of the time really expensive and hard to find, mind you). You can't simply paint your cadians a particular color and claim to be valhallans or krieg. Nobody's gonna let you get away with that gak. 99% of what you can find in stores are cadians. 99% of guard players have just cadians. Cadians is all they'll be able to play. Even if new models come out for other regiments, you'll need to buy 100+ infantry of that regiment. You cannot realistically say "sorry, guard players. spend $300 before you can play with these rules lol."

I gotta disagree, alot of guard players get really creative and just make up their own regiments. If you paint your guys in a winter scheme who's to say they arn't iceworlders like valhallans, or in tans from a desert world like tallarn. The question you should be asking yourself is if someone's gonna be a jackbooted gatekeeper and say you don't have the right models for the regimental rule you want to use, are they really someone you want to play with? Me, I have a fully converted knightworld regiment, men at arm guardsmen, shielded heavy weapon teams, giant bulky medieval looking power armored guys for Ogryn, Heraldry flying "demi knights" instead of sentinels, courts seers instead of primaris psykers, etc, etc. I'm pretty sure there arn't going to be any rules for knightworlders and I can promise you that if I want to use a regimental rule and someone says "sorry, guard players. spend $300 before you can play with these rules lol." I'll tell them to goosestep somewhere else. Not having regimental doctrines while every other faction get a their own version just because guard don't have a standardized uniform is ridiculous.

RogueApiary wrote:
I don't see why you couldn't give Cadian models the Catachan or other regiment keywords.

Because there are existing models for those things. It's like, who's to say I can't use wolf guard terminators as some chaos terminators instead. Maybe they got corrupted. Yeah maybe you'll meet people nice enough to let you do that, but I'd feel like a dick. Which is also why I don't run Harker. I know damn well those aren't catachans. I've seen catachans.

<edit> I'd feel I'm trying to game the system.

ThePorcupine wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
I don't see why you couldn't give Cadian models the Catachan or other regiment keywords.

Because there are existing models for those things. It's like, who's to say I can't use wolf guard terminators as some chaos terminators instead. Maybe they got corrupted. Yeah maybe you'll meet people nice enough to let you do that, but I'd feel like a dick. Which is also why I don't run Harker. I know damn well those aren't catachans. I've seen catachans.

<edit> I'd feel I'm trying to game the system.

You are welcome to be as uptight as you want to be with your toys, but don't expect the rest of us to care. Some guys in flames Of War are the same, and get all stressed about whether their infantry are wearing the right uniform for the right year they're representing...

If that's your thing, go ahead! You be you. But most people don't care.

To clarify, I would of course play vs someone using non -standard miniatures/etc. What I meant was I would feel like a dick constantly asking everyone I play with if it's ok that I'm using x models to count as y. I don't want to burden people, I don't want some to think I'm power gaming, and I want my regiment to feel legitimate for my own good.

All I'm saying is I can buy a "start collecting space marines", paint them green, call them salamanders, and they would look 100% authentic and nobody would bat an eye because that's exactly what salamanders look like. Guard players are under a LOT more scrutiny, and that makes me sad.

True enough, I got a literal army of barechested muscle men for my army, I'd be hard pressed to say "ya their mordians" lol but this also makes me wonder if regiments like the tanith might get rules? Or even maybe tank regiments from the fluff, now that'd be cool

 Cptskillet wrote:
True enough, I got a literal army of barechested muscle men for my army, I'd be hard pressed to say "ya their mordians" lol but this also makes me wonder if regiments like the tanith might get rules? Or even maybe tank regiments from the fluff, now that'd be cool

Why would they? There's only one regiment...

One of anything never stopped GW before. All named characters as examples.

The distinction should be is it clear

my army i's catachan is clear.

My cadian models are conscripts everything else is catachan it's clear

This melta is a plasma but this one isn't. this vendettas a storm raven and wolf guard terminators are assault terminators is not clear

Also if you paint you buy your start collecting set paint it green call it salamandrrs and them demy me my regiment I'm going to point out that your shoulder pad iconography is wrong and insist you use the chapter reflecting your shoulder pads. Even if that means your two + different chapters.

Shoot, if we get any regimental tactics I don't expect more than just Cadian and Catachan.. I have just come to the conclusion that my Tallarn will most likely end up being run as Catachan.