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Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






 Pacific wrote:

It does smack of a poor business decision with 4th edition doesn't it. Change for the sake of change and selling new books and kits, rather than because a genuine change was needed.


Maybe they realised the market leader, GW, has used this as a method of operation for over a decade and a half. It seems to work for GW. It doesn't matter how poor the rules were, or how obvious the changes for the sake of changes to sell more models was. The GW fans kept buying into it. Why not copy them?

On the otherhand, FFG seemed to have leapt above GW with X-wing, so now GW brings out games using the FFG way of selling sets (card collecting).

Although we live in an age of way more games and figure manufacturers than ever before, I worry they'll all end up making such similar games. In the same way the MMO market seems to use WoW as the way things should work.


My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/ 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Bolt Action is surprisingly doing well. I'm amazed at that - I thought the game was a FLOP

Theyre having the same turnout as the Hordes/Warmachine crowd right now.

I'm a complete noodle and I've been playing BA in 10mm with Pendraken minis for a few games with an old roommate. It's a fun game. it's quick. I'm glad to see it do unexpectedly well


 
   
Made in gb
Major





Bolt Action is doing very well round my way as well. It's my main game ATM and there are no shortage of opponent's.

It's not even close to being my favorite set of rules, but it's just great to see a historical ruleset being a regular feature on the scene.

"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" 
   
Made in ca
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Canada

 Pacific wrote:
 durecellrabbit wrote:
 Pacific wrote:


What was notable about FoW when it first launched was that they managed to touch the pulse of what a lot of casual or GW only wargames wanted at that time. Straightforward rules, all of the miniatures you needed in the box, it was all so accessible and I think they got hold of a lot of older teenage GW players that were after something a bit more 'adult', and historical fans too.

So I wonder why they didn't think of doing something similar with a different period of history? Roman Punic Wars, the hundred year war, ACW. Sets of quality plastic minis, a solid rulesets with campaign books etc. There is so much opportunity there, and it could have been launched with their full marketing and company weight behind it. I'm sure something like that would have had a great opportunity for success


As for moving into another period, there is a lot amount of competition in some of those periods. All of them have plastics in 28mm, all of them have lots of 15mm metal manufacturers and all of them have a variety of good rules. For example ancients has the following good rulesets that I can recall offhand: Hail Caesar, Too the Strongest, DBA3.0, L'Art de la Guerre, Swordpoint, Mortem et Gloriam, DBMM, Fields of Glory, Impetus. There doesn't seem to be the gap that existed in WW2 back when they started and that existed for WW3 when TY came out.


There was a hell of a lot of WW2 stuff about when FoW appeared. What FoW did was bring in a well marketed product, with well defined parameters, and game that was designed to appeal to GW gamers - not something where you have to provide your own bases or print off a rule supplement that had been published in Wargames Miniature monthly back in 1996 (to be a bit extreme )

I've mentioned the army boxes, the set campaign books, that tell you exactly what to buy, even themed paint sets so you don't need to do research outside of the rulebook. There aren't many historical games (apart from perhaps SAGA, maybe Hail Caesar and Warlord equivalents?) that offer the kind of 'package' to the inexperienced wargamer, who doesn't want to go outside of the all in one sets that the Battlefront (and GW games) provides.

I think there was plenty of room for some quality Roman-era plastics at 15mm ( you wouldnt even need to expand to other ancients periods), backed by Battlefronts marketing muscle and the fact it would get a couple of metres of display space at the FLGS. I certainly don't think it would have done any more harm than v4 of FoW, which seems to have gone down like a lead balloon.

But I guess this is all conjecture (although Battlefront isn't entirely risk averse as they went ahead with Team Yankee.. So who knows in future?)


Good post! Although I considered myself a grognard WW2 miniatures player at the time, I really appreciated the ease of getting set up in FOW when I started in 2005. You could grab a book, a paint set and a couple of boxes and off you go!

I hope that BF can salvage V4 - I liked V3 but they needed to change some things. The US lists were out of control. I also I think that cheaper plastic competitors came along and started eating their sales. With no IP on a Sherman, they had to try other methods. I think that there is some of that in the MW release with a limited run of lists that cover BF plastics without direct competitors combined with the cards. I think that it turned folks off. Its a shame, as there might not be a 15mm replacement system with the same wide appeal.

One thing that would keep BF out of other periods is the rather flat WW1 and Pacific theatre receptions. Folks talked those things up on the forums, but then stayed away.

Team Yankee is probably keeping them afloat for now, and I hope that V4 catches on.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 Pacific wrote:

It does smack of a poor business decision with 4th edition doesn't it. Change for the sake of change and selling new books and kits, rather than because a genuine change was needed.


Maybe they realised the market leader, GW, has used this as a method of operation for over a decade and a half. It seems to work for GW. It doesn't matter how poor the rules were, or how obvious the changes for the sake of changes to sell more models was. The GW fans kept buying into it. Why not copy them?


Not too much a stretch. Some of Battlefront's top guys are ex-GW staff.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






When Flames of War came out, 15mm wasn't really a popular scale for World War 2 games. I remember a few years previously, when Gear Krieg (a pulp sci-fi WW2 game) came out in 15mm, everyone was surprised at the odd choice of scale. At the time, there was QRF and Peter Pig and this tiny company in New Zealand that had a small range of resin tanks, and that was about it, IIRC.
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor




At a Place, Making Dolls Great Again

Where I live it seems like each store has a game it enjoys with some overlapping.
There's a 9th age one, a warmahordes one, there's relic knights even!
So if you want to play infinity or bolt action you beat like a particular store because that's where the people go lol

Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America! 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Painting Night with nine year old gamers.

Not as many as last time - but still outnumbering the Kids of War game.

Sam has a Fire Giant Gaoler.

Another has a small horde of skelingtons and zombies.

The rest have player character type minis.

The AUld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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Posts with Authority






Last painting session of the year with the kids coming up tonight - and Sam asked a question that shows that she is beginning to understand the complexities of Dungeon Mastering: Do you ever put something in the game just because you have the miniature?

My reply: Yep! And sometimes I buy a miniature just so I can put it in the game.

Her parents gave her the fire giant gaolor - I wrote it into the adventure they are giving her for Christmas.

She started running her first campaign about two months ago - nine years old, and I am so proud of her! The first scenario is the classic Keep on the Borderlands, updated to Pathfinder. The scenario that they hired me to write picks up from there - to the north and east.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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Posts with Authority






Sam brought me miniatures for Christmas - ogres wearing face paint as clowns! :lol:

When she sent the question if I ever put something in the game just because I had the miniatures my initial assumption was that she had started realizing the same thing - sometimes the mini is why an encounter/NPC/hero/villain happens.

Now... not so sure - it could be that she is now going to be expecting ogre clowns....

The Auld Grump



Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






How is my non-GW game going at the moment?

Noisily....

Instead of the Kings of War game, tonight I am running a Hack & Slash - simplified D20/D&D rules, that I have been running every now and again since 1977.

Some (most?) of these kids have parents that had not been born in 1977.

It is going... loudly.

I swear, Sam is hitting a pitch in her happy squeals when she 'accidentally' fireballs one of her allies that has the dog hiding under the chair. (So far, she has inflicted three incidents of 'friendly fireball'... two against the same player.)

We are using jellybeans as hit points....

The Auld Grump - each player controlling one character, or two weak characters. (The weak characters are halflings and goblins - identical, except the gobbos are green and the halflings aren't.)

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





drinking tea in the snow

I tried a kings of war game!

I lost. Flying guys are not my friends.

realism is a lie
 
   
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Dakka Veteran





Everything is dead but 40k in my area. Flames and Bolt Action were doing good for several years and then just fell off the face of the earth.

Warmahordes has a following but has never really caught on. With the death of Warhammer Fantasy there seems to be a growing interest in Kings of War.

However it's 99% 40K.
   
Made in us
Haughty Harad Serpent Rider





Richmond, VA

Bolt Action has exploded. 6 new players in the last couple of weeks. Our local FB group has 80 people, about 20-25 are active players.

"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games  
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint



Saint Louis, MO

Found a local wargaming club that plays at a local store that is into Bolt Action so I finally found people to play with. Played a 500 or so point intro game and looking forward to filling out my 1k list of late war American Army. Will probably also be playing Rules With No Name for Wild West gaming as well.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Bolt Action is "ok" around here, Antares fell flat on its backside though, despite being basically a better version.

meh.

gamers are fickle
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Variety going on here. Healthy 40k, AoS, Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Bolt Action, Hail Caeser et al. Loads of historical games get played at clubs and in people's houses.

What has happened though is its not store based. It used to be totally reliant on the stores but it has moved to clubs and people's houses and whatnot. The events and even weekly gaming are now organized by people who find space elsewhere. Social media seems to work better for people finding games than the networking of local stores.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

leopard wrote:
Bolt Action is "ok" around here, Antares fell flat on its backside though, despite being basically a better version.

meh.

gamers are fickle

I'm sure the rules are good since I love bolt action, but the minis really don't do it for me and I suspect others are in the same boat. Add in most are metal and I have a feeling it's the aesthetics and models that kill the game.

They all look like mass effect knockoffs or cheesy early start trek. I get for some it's right up their alley but as a guy who prefers more gritty sci fi like 40k or things like the 80's Aliens stuff Antares really doesn't do it for me.

Shame too, I was excited to try the game until I saw the models.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I don't know, I think some of the Antares miniatures have a lot more hard sci-fi look to them and look pretty cool. And I love the background for the Isorian faction, where they basically end up fighting a race of evil space spiders and end up becoming like them in the course of beating them (which does seem pretty grim-dark to me! )






Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
Excellent discussion forum & information collection for Epic and other small scale miniatures: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php
 
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

The aesthetics killed antares for me as well. The game is awesome. The models? Not so much.

http://narrativewargaming.com

Home of Grand Crusade and Azyr Empires
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 auticus wrote:
The aesthetics killed antares for me as well. The game is awesome. The models? Not so much.


that is a common problem for games. IMO most of the non gw games out there are vastly better games than what gw can make, but their models are......iffy at times. the old mutant chronicles game had great rules that played amazingly well but some of the models were...yuck, and Chronopia was IMO vastly superior to warhammer and light years ahead of AoS, but it had the same issues with models.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 TheAuldGrump wrote:
How is my non-GW game going at the moment?

Noisily....

Instead of the Kings of War game, tonight I am running a Hack & Slash - simplified D20/D&D rules, that I have been running every now and again since 1977.

Some (most?) of these kids have parents that had not been born in 1977.

It is going... loudly.

I swear, Sam is hitting a pitch in her happy squeals when she 'accidentally' fireballs one of her allies that has the dog hiding under the chair. (So far, she has inflicted three incidents of 'friendly fireball'... two against the same player.)

We are using jellybeans as hit points....

The Auld Grump - each player controlling one character, or two weak characters. (The weak characters are halflings and goblins - identical, except the gobbos are green and the halflings aren't.)

I asked Sam what was up between her and Dain - the way she has been 'accidentally' fireballing him in games, and then the way he kind of... enjoys talking about it.

Her answer?

'We're going to be married.'
'Uhm... Does Dain know this?'
'Yep! We've already agreed!'

In a completely calm, happy voice

Bear in mind, these kids are nine years old.
I swear, Dain was still in the 'Gurls! Yuck!' stage just a few months ago.... Now, they are not just talking at the games, they are hanging out together.

My wife gives them a bit less than 50/50. (Married or not, they have a relationship.)

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 durecellrabbit wrote:
It feels to me like Dakka is quieter about non-GW games these day. Since 40k seems to be undergoing a resurgence of popularity I was wondering how other games which I don't hear much about are doing? These games include WMH, KoW, Malifaux, Infinity, Gates of Antares and X-Wing.


Our local group was big into FOW v3 when I started with them a 2-3 years ago. We played lots of one-off games, leagues and mega-scenarios. Everyone was excited when Battlefront announced a new edition and new MW books, and we had started planning to do a desert campaign in the store. Then v4 actually hit and people were appalled. At first it was the rules people balked at, but even after they began to reluctantly accept them, the army books and cards continued to turn people off. Battlefront's totally botched release of the new edition didn't help.

There's been a little LW experimentation with v4 but there are lots of short-comings in the slap-dash way BF adapted the old lists to the new rules that people haven't gotten that excited about it. Some of us have been trying to drum up some interest in doing a MW escalation campaign (now that there are almost four forces to chose from), but I'm not sure if there is enough interest to make it worthwhile.

Team Yankee has been modestly successful locally. I think it some ways its been successful in spite of the rules, rather than because of them. People are interested in gaming the cold war because for a lot of them its more relatable than WWII. Many players are old enough to have served during that period, or at least remember it. WWII on the other hand is often their grandfather's war.

There's a few people playing BA locally, but it hasn't taken off like FOW once did and remains a niche game in our FLGS.

There was a fair amount of interest in X-Wing for a while, but it seems like that interest had been crushed under the relentless waves of new releases, and the need to keep up with those releases to stay competitive.

There was a flash of interest in Kings of War when WFB imploded, but that seems to have died off. Playing of WMH has also dropped way off, too. There's nothing else going on in the store often enough to really be considered a regularly played miniatures game.

These days our FLGS seems dominated by RPGs and card games. :(


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
When Flames of War came out, 15mm wasn't really a popular scale for World War 2 games.

Huh. I remember 15mm be the most popular scale for WWII gaming long before FOW (I was a WWII gamer long before FOW). There were multiple companies selling extensive ranges of 15mm tanks and infantry. There was a big historical gaming store in Chicago I used to visit, that had probably 50 feet of aisle space devoted to 15mm WWII.

GHQ's 6mm stuff was probably a distant second in popularity back then, and any other scales were a tiny fraction of sales. AFAIK, widespread use of 20mm and 28mm are relatively recent for WWII gaming.
   
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Last week at my Kids of War game, the battle was Cheliax (Kingdoms of Men with Abyssal allies) vs. Pirates (Kingdoms of Men) - and the Cheliaxians won.

At tonight's Pathfinder game, the PCs are pirates trying to retake an island that has been stormed by Cheliax....

Three of the players are also in my Kids of War game, and groaned when they realized that two of them had run the armty that took the island from the Pirates....

Hey, I warned them that the wargame was going to affect the RPG....

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* The kids game for Pathfinder is a modified Skull & Shackles - the kids are tenth level now. I took out the more adult portions of the scenarios, and this scenario is to make up for some of the XP they might otherwise have lost out on.... They were homing in on the island when they noticed that the flag had changed to that of Cheliax, not the Freebooters of the Shackles..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 01:23:18


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Ordinate






Baltimore, MD

I was at a gaming store's black friday sale, and they have Fow stuff for 60% off!

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 11,000pts
Cygnar: 350pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Pacific wrote:
I don't know, I think some of the Antares miniatures have a lot more hard sci-fi look to them and look pretty cool. And I love the background for the Isorian faction, where they basically end up fighting a race of evil space spiders and end up becoming like them in the course of beating them (which does seem pretty grim-dark to me! )






That's the funny thing about taste and opinion. These pictures pretty much sum up everything I dislike about Antares models. To me they all have that generic mass effect look like a lot of sci find stuff this decade seems to prefer. I always preferred a more "dirty" and lived in universe, something like Star Craft's Terran backwater aesthetic, the clunky analog look of technology in movies like Aliens, or 40k's ancient and almost magical technology. When I see Antares models, they look alien and staged, like a prop designer got bored and had too much fiberglass and free time. Some I can't even tell are human, and their technology and gear is so pristine it looks like it's never been used. Ironically this is probably far more realistic of what the future will be than most sci fi I enjoy, but there you go.

This is doubly ironic because I play PHR in Dropzone and Dropfleet Although to be fair that's because PHR has giant friggin scorpion mechs and no other fleet in dropfleet let me say "FIRE BROADSIDES" like PHR did, so I didn't really care about their aesthetic as much.

So yeah, gamers are fickle, news at 11.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Well - at least we can agree on one thing. I would LOVE to see a miniature range for Starcraft!

Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
Excellent discussion forum & information collection for Epic and other small scale miniatures: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php
 
   
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Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

You know where you can find a Kerrigan though... or something fairly close.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
That's the funny thing about taste and opinion. These pictures pretty much sum up everything I dislike about Antares models. To me they all have that generic mass effect look like a lot of sci find stuff this decade seems to prefer. I always preferred a more "dirty" and lived in universe, something like Star Craft's Terran backwater aesthetic, the clunky analog look of technology in movies like Aliens, or 40k's ancient and almost magical technology. When I see Antares models, they look alien and staged, like a prop designer got bored and had too much fiberglass and free time. Some I can't even tell are human, and their technology and gear is so pristine it looks like it's never been used. Ironically this is probably far more realistic of what the future will be than most sci fi I enjoy, but there you go.
Never let realism get in the way of enjoying space elf-games. I dislike the look of the Gates of Antares minis too. But I do like their low profile non-slant sided bases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 16:47:57



 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint



Saint Louis, MO

Those Antares models look pretty sweet to me. I'm not sure anyone plays that in my area though. The only sci-fi game I see is 40k, which has cool fluff but it seems like its more about minimal rules used to push very expensive plastic around the table. Antares using a take on the IMO great Bolt Action rule set sounds awesome if anyone played it here.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

bigern314 wrote:
Those Antares models look pretty sweet to me. I'm not sure anyone plays that in my area though. The only sci-fi game I see is 40k, which has cool fluff but it seems like its more about minimal rules used to push very expensive plastic around the table. Antares using a take on the IMO great Bolt Action rule set sounds awesome if anyone played it here.

If it's like bolt action it should be loads of fun. It's not perfect, but it definitely leads to exciting games. If you like the models absolutely give it a shot. It looks pretty good to me at least.

That's why I'm bugged about not liking the models so much If there was a faction I liked, or heck even a faction that had rules that let me use something akin to what I prefer to build (guardsmen or at most fancy something like admech) I'd have already bought the book and be running demo games, like I do with every system I enjoy. It's just nothing I have built or would like to build would remotely fit in with Antares, and it feels in poor form to try and shoehorn it in.


It also doesn't hurt that I've kind of hit critical mass on the amount of games I can keep straight in my head. I play actively 40k, Bolt Action, Dropfleet, Shadow War, and whatever version of kill team is in vogue that week. On top of that I on and off play Flames V3, X-Wing, Dropzone, and even have starship troopers minis laying around. I don't know if I've got enough room left in my brain for another game I also need time to grieve the death of Halo ground combat in 15mm, especially since I never got a chance to even try it. I mean, I knew it was doomed from the start with Spartan behind the wheel, but Halo was one of my first sci find universes I fell in love with and I was excited to try it. RIP, Im sure one day I'll come across some cheap on a clearance sale and pic them up for a painting project someday but the goal this year is no new projects, only clear out old ones.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
 
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