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Bran Dawri wrote:
I disagree. The logic isn't faulty. An assumption that the reasoning was based on was in error. The faulty assumption was that because gay men in general have a much higher chance of being infected with HIV that the same was true for pornstars who do gay porn. Your facts with regards to causes for porn shutdowns because of an HIV breakout set that straight.

It is faulty. Using a statistical probability to make a determination about an individual is extremely faulty especially if your using the wrong data. That the use of such statistics is highly selective is was makes it prejudicial.

There is indeed a difference that’s why I called it a difference and it is important. But it’s still prejudicial. The difference here is the key difference between being a bigot and just being part of a culture where casual prejudice is common place (and that’s basically every culture). That’s why I call it low key. It’s kind of like how people take all those Jewish stereotypes in old Disney stuff as evidence that Walt was an anti Semite ignoring that the guy gave millions over his life to Jewish charities. Those offensive stereotypes were just part of the culture of his time and shoddy evidence of how he felt on a conscious level. They’re important to recognize because they are offensive but jumping on people for them as often happens is imo counter-productive.

Fully agree with you on the last paragraph. It's a big reason I prefer stories. No one gets forced into doing things they'd rather not do for those (possibly in them if your tastes run that way. Who am I to judge?).

For sure. It’s a highly exploitative industry. STDs might rate lower in porn than generally but mental disorders especially depression rate higher and there are some obvious conclusions to drawn there. Unfortunately it’s something I think just isn’t going away. Can’t ban porn anymore than you can ban drugs or guns. People will find it no matter it’s legalitt.

If you are in this industry than you are already dealing with massive emotional trauma.

 LordofHats wrote:
It is faulty. Using a statistical probability to make a determination about an individual is extremely faulty especially if your using the wrong data. That the use of such statistics is highly selective is was makes it prejudicial.

There is indeed a difference that’s why I called it a difference and it is important. But it’s still prejudicial. The difference here is the key difference between being a bigot and just being part of a culture where casual prejudice is common place (and that’s basically every culture). That’s why I call it low key. It’s kind of like how people take all those Jewish stereotypes in old Disney stuff as evidence that Walt was an anti Semite ignoring that the guy gave millions over his life to Jewish charities. Those offensive stereotypes were just part of the culture of his time and shoddy evidence of how he felt on a conscious level. They’re important to recognize because they are offensive but jumping on people for them as often happens is imo counter-productive..

I think we're pretty much in agreement then. I'm just looking at it from a slightly different perspective. Pre-emptive caveat: I don't generally like analogies, but I do think this is a good one.

I think the (presumed) logic of Ames dicussed so far is more analogous to having to walk through an unlit park. Not everyone you meet in one is out to rob you, but the chances of actually being robbed by someone is (much) greater at night than in broad daylight, so it's better to cross during daylight than at nighttime. And pretty much everyone will do that given the chance. Why is the reasoning solid there, but not when considering the chances of getting a (specific) STD?
So it's not a slight against the individual actor because he's gay. It's not even about whether or not he's gay as such - she's not even saying he actually has HIV, just like not everyone you meet in a dark park at night is out to rob you, but she wanted to avoid the increase in chance of being robbed. I cannot fault her for that.
A point can be made she was in the wrong line of work for that (ie, she should've avoided the park altogether), or that she got daytime and nighttime mixed up (or maybe she was in the wrong park) because of a culturally widespread urban legend about gay porn actors, but there's nothing wrong with the base logic of trying to avoid unlit parks at night in order to not get robbed.

I'm just going to repeat that phrase here. It's too crazy not to. She got daytime and nighttime mixed up because of a culturally widespread urban legend about gay porn actors. I'm changing my mind about analogies. If they can lead to phrases as insane as that and still make sense, they're awesome!

 Frazzled wrote:
If you are in this industry than you are already dealing with massive emotional trauma.

Or not.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you are in this industry than you are already dealing with massive emotional trauma.

Or not.

I take it you have some experience in this industry then. It's not like you to be contrary after all.

Sadly theres no hard data about the number of people in the Porn-Industry with mental traumas/problems. Of course, not everybody is gonna have them, but I don't think is unreasonable to assume that a good number of them have some kind of problem.
You only need to read testimony of ex porn actors and actress. The use and abuse of drugs forced by the producers, how is normal to cheat on what is going to be filmed, especially for newbies in the industry, etc...

 Galas wrote:
Sadly theres no hard data about the number of people in the Porn-Industry with mental traumas/problems. Of course, not everybody is gonna have them, but I don't think is unreasonable to assume that a good number of them have some kind of problem.
You only need to read testimony of ex porn actors and actress. The use and abuse of drugs forced by the producers, how is normal to cheat on what is going to be filmed, especially for newbies in the industry, etc...

There are several very good books, documentaries on the subject, you are right. But if Peregine is trying to be a contrary WUM, rather than contribute to a meaningful discussion, he needs to be called out. No doubt he'll be delighted he's getting this reaction from me.

 Galas wrote:
Sadly theres no hard data about the number of people in the Porn-Industry with mental traumas/problems. Of course, not everybody is gonna have them, but I don't think is unreasonable to assume that a good number of them have some kind of problem.
You only need to read testimony of ex porn actors and actress. The use and abuse of drugs forced by the producers, how is normal to cheat on what is going to be filmed, especially for newbies in the industry, etc...

Well Id day its a fair guess Thetes a higher percentage above the average of having some kind of darker past or somthing in there that's less happy.

Its not a industry that people are gonna go, I wanna do this I grow up 99. 9% of the ime.

For whatever reason, she was uncomfortable shooting a sex scene with an actor from what she considers to be a higher-risk area of the business.

She could be 100% wrong about it being riskier.

She could be 100% wrong about that area of her business not having the same test protocols and standards as hers.

None of that changes the fact that, as an actor, she gets to choose what projects she is part of and which ones she isn't. Her body, her choice.

She gave her explanations and then was cyber-bullied because of it. I hope those responsible are charged to the full extent of their local jurisdictions laws and punished accordingly.

It's a damn shame she killed herself.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:



So who is right? One side claims testing is standardized across the industry, and yet there is still a bias among performers? That doesn't add up at all.

It does add up when you factor in the human element that people hold onto their preconceptions, prejudices and biases long after they are proven false or shown to have a complete lack of supporting evidence.

For evidence see flat earthism, abstinence only sex ed, young earth creationism, anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, 9/11 truthers, obama birthers, moon landing conspiracists, string theorists etc.

The world is full of people who can continue to hold onto an idea even when it is plainly false with even the smallest bit of research.

I normally would agree with you, but I have a hard time placing adult performers in the same class of people who deny the moon landing, think 9/11 was an inside job, or think the earth is flat. For those groups there is an overt antagonism to education, authority and science. Those people are hostile to any facts which undo their world view, and they gain from sticking their head in the sand and believing their falsehoods.

For adult performers, though, the facts are crucial to their health and prosperity and shunning said facts in order to hold onto deeply held biases just doesn't hold water for me. I am not convinced that that was Ames' angle with her tweet, because again, she referenced her management as failing to protect her. That signals to me there is an institutional issue at play here within the adult industry. If Ames was so outraged that her manager(s) didn't properly vet the performer/production company she was scheduled to shoot with is that a personal bias on Ames part or some sort of behind-the-scenes reveal of what really transpires in that industry? She may have been tipping off the fact that certain performers/studios/producers don't play by the rules fully. I've heard those allegations before, especially during the Prop 60 debates, so it wouldn't be the first time claims were made of corner cutting occurring in the adult film industry.

Or she is a homophobe. But again, I just don't see that narrative playing out here. Someone who lives the lifestyle of an adult performer probably is a little more progressive with their ideas than most people, is probably a little more progressive with how they view the human condition than most people, so for her to be homophobic seems like a stretch.

It may also be worth noting that Ames's husband is also a longtime director and producer within the industry. So she wouldn't have had just her own knowledge and experience to rely on in making her decision.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
#1 No, they do not have thick skin. In fact, many get in to the business due to underlying mental health issues, which can cause them to do very irrational things such as this.

#2 Every group, no matter how good the intentions are, is going to have that one gak who doesn't really understand what he is saying or doing.

Edit: had notoriously in there for no reason, because why not

Underlying mental health issues? Like what? I mean if you are telling me they do it because they are depressed - get over it - everyone is depressed. Any girl that works in the industry has been called a lot of names - it goes with the territory. I'm pretty much an expert when it comes to porn too - the things they do...that gives you thick skin is all I am saying.

In regards to the current environment - it's not a few bad apples creating it - it is mobs of people. It is truly terrifying to me.

I get the sneaking suspicion that you are not an expert on anything, especially mental health. So I am going to just let you walk away looking like a fool instead of calling you out over the "get over it - everyone is depressed" statement and making you look far, far worse.

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Also the qubit about me being an expert on porn was kind of ment to be a joke (haha). I was just trying to say I've watched a lot of porn without actually saying "I've watched lots of porn".

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Still waiting on those "porn expert" credentials you hold.

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Still waiting on those "porn expert" credentials you hold.

See above.

In Japan they don't have this kind of problems. Cartoons don't have feelings.

I think there's probably a world of difference between someone saying something on-set that all parties involved know is part of the job and getting death threats from faceless strangers.

 Galas wrote:
In Japan they don't have this kind of problems. Cartoons don't have feelings.

Well sure... but that gak gets weird man...





The above is actually just a translation failure that achieved memehood for being so absurd.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
#1 No, they do not have thick skin. In fact, many get in to the business due to underlying mental health issues, which can cause them to do very irrational things such as this.

#2 Every group, no matter how good the intentions are, is going to have that one gak who doesn't really understand what he is saying or doing.

Edit: had notoriously in there for no reason, because why not

Underlying mental health issues? Like what? I mean if you are telling me they do it because they are depressed - get over it - everyone is depressed. Any girl that works in the industry has been called a lot of names - it goes with the territory. I'm pretty much an expert when it comes to porn too - the things they do...that gives you thick skin is all I am saying.

In regards to the current environment - it's not a few bad apples creating it - it is mobs of people. It is truly terrifying to me.

I get the sneaking suspicion that you are not an expert on anything, especially mental health. So I am going to just let you walk away looking like a fool instead of calling you out over the "get over it - everyone is depressed" statement and making you look far, far worse.

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Also the qubit about me being an expert on porn was kind of ment to be a joke (haha). I was just trying to say I've watched a lot of porn without actually saying "I've watched lots of porn".

Bullgak. The whole "it didn't happen to me, so it shouldn't happen to them" defense is absurd and as a nurse, you should know that all patients handle things differently. If you are a Nurse, it amazes me that you have reached that level without understanding that or killing a person. "Bee stings never killed me, get over it."

 Galas wrote:
In Japan they don't have this kind of problems. Cartoons don't have feelings.

I know you're being flippant, but just to be clear there is a porn industry over in Japan with real people that appear to be quite sizable. Idols can end up in the AV business, iirc.
The Hentai is still more messed up though. You can get away with a lot of things with fictional characters and ink.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Still waiting on those "porn expert" credentials you hold.

See above.

"pretty much common sense".... I'm beginning to suspect you hold no degree in Porniveristy at all!

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

Still waiting on those "porn expert" credentials you hold.

See above.

"pretty much common sense".... I'm beginning to suspect you hold no degree in Porniveristy at all!

Aww thats not what i was expecting at all :(

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am a nurse. My mom was a psych nurse. I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me. It doesn't make me an expert on psychology. It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media. You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

You being a nurse doesn't add anything positive to this argument. It only makes me wonder how you can conclude that all patients must experience a mental health issue in exactly the same manner to exactly the same degree as you do.

Second, greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their job? Are you taking about what you see onscreen? Or do you have proof that every production has been a hotbed of human cruelty and every performer so demoralized he or she could not walk out?

Frankly, your dismissal of other people's depression makes you look like a fool more than anything anyone else has said.

 feeder wrote:
Porniveristy

We need to submit this word to Websters. Like now XD

Or just claim the domain name now, cause someone's going to want to slap a bunch of videos on that HTTP at some point

 LordofHats wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Porniveristy

We need to submit this word to Websters. Like now XD

Or just claim the domain name now, cause someone's going to want to slap a bunch of videos on that HTTP at some point

Wanna go halfsies?

We could be rich as kings!

Only if we buy purple suits with some of the money

Where does one submit a resume for a faculty position at The Porniversity? Asking for a friend.....

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Where does one submit a resume for a faculty position at The Porniversity? Asking for a friend.....

As a former professor of Computer Graphsex there, I don't recommend submitting for Tenure.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Where does one submit a resume for a faculty position at The Porniversity? Asking for a friend.....

As a former professor of Computer Graphsex there, I don't recommend submitting for Tenure.

I think I've seen some of your work, a real pioneer of the quadratic on cubic genre.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I think I've seen some of your work, a real pioneer of the quadratic on cubic genre.

I still prefer 'Increasing and Decreasing the Amplitude of the Vibrational Frequency of Breasts' A real eye opener for women trying to keep Z cup or larger breasts from demolishing a bra before their cue.

I personally would go for psychology. The "psychosomatic effects of intense physical stimulation" sounds interesting.