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Made in ca
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 ChargerIIC wrote:
trindaros wrote:
I detest their fluff. Even by GW standards, it's a complete sh*tstorm, with Cawl being who and what he is, the perfection of the primaris and the way guiliman handles it. Twice he just swooped in, saved the day and forces primaris down the throat of a first founding chapter even fully ignoring his own codex.

The worst part is that even the dark angels sayeing "Yes sir, please sir", with the writer(s) fully ignoring how such a chapter would react naturally. Also, having 95ish% acceptance rate among chapters is absurd, everyone just rolls over? suddenly secretive/(semi-)paranoid warrior monks are comepletely ok with 'beter' strangers forced upon them?



I kind of like how they handled it for Dark Angels. They've been accepted to the rank and file - who know nothing of the secrets of the chapter. They even demoted their new character to only be a lieutenant and the primaris company master doesn't get the DeathWatch keyword because no primaris has been allowed to know about the Fallen. It's been a 100 years since the ultima founding and there are still no primaris deathwatch. That sounds pretty much like the Dark Angels.

I'm curious how they'll handle it for Space Wolves. The wolves won't mind primaris but successor chapters have been noted and that's a huge change for them.


sucessor chapters are something I see them welcoming offically and thinking "ok pratically speaking this is good" but at the same time, it'll be a challange to deal with them.chapters with long eistablished histories of sucessors (the Ultramarines and Imperial fists) have long since made peace with their sucessors being differant. I suspect the Space Wolves will need to adapt to that

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 Stormonu wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Doesn't the iconic Mk 7 Aquila power armour feature a helmet stylized to resemble a skull anyway? The Reiver helmets aren't anything that hasn't been done before.


Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.

And there's always the quality of execution on top of that. Sure having a sculpted skull is something that's been done before, like Chaplains, but the Reivers just look cartooney.


Eh, there's real life forces that do something similar:



I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?

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Skull looking hockey masks are a thing.

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I find it utterly hilarious that the Reivers are the thing that make people complain about the skulls... Have you not seen any 40K models before?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 22:03:32


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 Crimson wrote:
I find it utterly hilarious that the Reivers are the thing that make people jomplain about the skulls... Have you not seen any 40K models before?


Yes 40K is full of skulls. The Eversor Assassin looks great, as does the Culexus. I like most Chaplains. I like stylized skulls on many Khorne models, and I like the fact that the Khorne symbol itself is a heavily stylized skull. I don't have a problem with many of the skulls in 40K. If the Storm Raven was actually just a giant floating skull with bolters for teeth, that could be a really awesome model. Simply being a skull in 40K isn't my issue.

A: Yes Space Marines themselves, even plain vanilla ones, have skulls on their armor. But traditionally the aesthetic emphasis is generally on the equipment, less so the decoration. Often the skulls are optional, not all breastplates have skulls on them, and the crux terminatus with a skull is optional for veterans in power armor. It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.


At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 21:51:06


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 Insectum7 wrote:
It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.
But it's not for the Reivers?

Is this just a case of "it's a new unit therefore their "traditional attire" isn't important?

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.
I think a lot of the new stuff GW does is aesthetically different, really. If you compare their Nurgle range especially to previous ones, there's certainly MORE going on on the model. I think a big reason why the Reivers have a different one is to differentiate them from the Chaplain skull masks.


At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.
Very true. Aesthetics is subjective.

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 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?


Oh my friend, let me tell you about the 14th century, which is inspiration for roughly half of all the imperial stuff you see. You get a warrior caste, you get costumed armor. They go hand in hand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 22:10:18


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 lolman1c wrote:
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I like the Reiver masks, I think it is cool that they try to differentiate the units a bit more than old 'tactical marine with different gear' thing. But if someone doesn't like the skull masks it is easy enough to use alternative heads. The Hellblaster kit comes with plenty of unskully gas mask heads which would probably work well.

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
It's unlike the marine aesthetic to have a standard piece of equipment be so obviously a stylized skull, with the important exception of the Chaplain, who wears the skull mask as a badge of office.
But it's not for the Reivers?

Is this just a case of "it's a new unit therefore their "traditional attire" isn't important?

B: It's stylistically different than the other skulls on marine models, so it stands out when compared to the rest of the line. Sure there are other skulls in the range of that may not match, but they're generally single models (like chaplains). It's aesthetically jarring, imo.
I think a lot of the new stuff GW does is aesthetically different, really. If you compare their Nurgle range especially to previous ones, there's certainly MORE going on on the model. I think a big reason why the Reivers have a different one is to differentiate them from the Chaplain skull masks.

At the end of the day, it's fine if you like them. I'm just pointing out why I don't.
Very true. Aesthetics is subjective.


New is ok. New and different can be good if it's done well. New and not good is just plain not good. That's pretty basic.

Aesthetics are "somewhat subjective". Both the Redemptor and Leviathan are recent additions to the marine line, but the looks of one of them is less controversial than the other. I'd argue that makes one design measurably "better" than the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?


Oh my friend, let me tell you about the 14th century, which is inspiration for roughly half of all the imperial stuff you see. You get a warrior caste, you get costumed armor. They go hand in hand.


Ok, let's make it an excercise then. "Imperial" stuff sure. There's a lot of different model lines in "Imperial". But go now to "Vanilla Marines", and drum up examples.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 22:19:02


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Vanilla Marines are medieval knights. Most of their helmets are inspired from historical examples, including the Mk X models. Your claim that there is no precedent for stylized armor is directly against human history - especially when there is a warrior caste that is more than willing to show off:

I'm still waiting for the face helmets:




Or anything Milanese - those dudes had fun:


Death Mask because I'm starting a google black hole looking for the damn 14th century bird armor that was so awesome:


I'd stick to arguing that you personally don't like the helmets - human military nature/history is not on your side in this.

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 lolman1c wrote:
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Im afraid you totally missed what I'm saying. I get that the marine helmets are based off of historical design. That's not my point. My point is that the decorated designs are traditionally not used for "vanilla" marine units. The shapes of decoration are sort of there, but more guised under functionality. The way the Terminator helm is based off an animal's head, like a rhino or a lion or a big dog. But it's familiar without being overt. The more decorated stuff has been reserved for charcters.

So try again with the basic marine line to find overt costuming for whole units. I think you'll just come up with roman stuff, and when you do it will be optional baubles to add on to the models, ie, not part of the functional kit.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Im afraid you totally missed what I'm saying. I get that the marine helmets are based off of historical design. That's not my point. My point is that the decorated designs are traditionally not used for "vanilla" marine units. The shapes of decoration are sort of there, but more guised under functionality. The way the Terminator helm is based off an animal's head, like a rhino or a lion or a big dog. But it's familiar without being overt. The more decorated stuff has been reserved for charcters.

So try again with the basic marine line to find overt costuming for whole units. I think you'll just come up with roman stuff, and when you do it will be optional baubles to add on to the models, ie, not part of the functional kit.


I get what you are saying, subtle references, you know things like

the Subtle like the helmets of the ultramarines:
Spoiler:


or subtle like the way GW handles the space wolves:
Spoiler:


or maybe niples on power armor subtle:
Spoiler:


Let's face it there is so much goofy gak in the GW catalog (let alone just in the space marines section) that the Riever helmet isn't even in the top ten. It's a bit marmite like, you'll love it or hate it, but hardly seems worthy of two pages of back and forth. Which is made even more pointless by the fact almost no one is running Rievers, and even if they were good enough to be mandatory, you could drop a few bucks, buy some tactical sergeant heads, and run them bare faced. The the heads are the same size between vanilla marines and primaris, so you could even run them as beakies if that is what turns your crank.

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Dark angels - 2k


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You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.


you don't get much more vanilla then the bloody Ultramarines.

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Mississippi

 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?


Well done, in my opinion. Those are veteran Peruvian special force officers (note the one on the right is holding a sabre).

If you want hockey masks, that would be the Taiwan special forces



Overall, I think you're just bantering in "No true Scotsman" country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then, of course there are these guys and their skull-faced helmets.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 05:03:11


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 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.


You mean the MK I vanilla marines with the Horse Hair ponytail?

The MKII and that giant grill in front?

The MKV covered in big metal studs?

The MKVI. I mean, it's a giant freakin' break!

The MK VIII with the ultimate popped collar?

On top of that, they stick paper to their armor with wax seals, slap skulls in random places and even have reliquary hanging from their waist in several models.

The Imperium is constantly decking its Angels of Death with weird crap. You'll have to live with it.

Try not to stare directly at the grey knights.

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 lolman1c wrote:
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Sigh. This is what I get for getting into a discussion about aesthetic nuance on Dakka. I think you're all just poking the bear at this point, but this is pretty easy so I'll hit it up anyways for fun.

BrianDavion wrote:


you don't get much more vanilla then the bloody Ultramarines.


Special model for chapter specific non-line trooper. Boom! Outside of challenge. Moving on.

 Stormonu wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:


I don't understand the point.

Are you saying that's done well? It's only paint. Its not like their uniform is wearing a hockey mask with a "super-sick" (sarcasm) skull on it. It could be that the rest of the unit think those guys are jack***** for using face paint like that. I have no idea, do you?


Well done, in my opinion. Those are veteran Peruvian special force officers (note the one on the right is holding a sabre).

If you want hockey masks, that would be the Taiwan special forces



Overall, I think you're just bantering in "No true Scotsman" country.


Peruvian Officers you say? Non-standard kit and it's just paint besides. = Chaplain with war-paint or whatever. Boom!

Those hockey masks don't have skulls sculpted onto them, and are otherwise not decorative. Disregarded!


 Stormonu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then, of course there are these guys and their skull-faced helmets.



Stylization is well beyond literal skull. Also, not part of the Space Marine line! Disregarded!


 ChargerIIC wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
You'll note I mention "vanilla marines" "standard line" and "standard units". None of those examples equate to what I'm talking about.

So no, you don't appear to get what I'm saying.


You mean the MK I vanilla marines with the Horse Hair ponytail? - Not a common kit for vanilla marines, just a single old model

The MKII and that giant grill in front? - same non-standard as above, you're buying specialty models as an aesthetic and "historical" choice

The MKV covered in big metal studs? - same

The MKVI. I mean, it's a giant freakin' break! - definitely not a skull, for all intents and purposes possibly angled to better deflect incoming fire, overall implementation is simple and not decorative

The MK VIII with the ultimate popped collar? - standard kit? Don't think so, I think one of those comes in a ten man squad, and is optional. Also implementation is not decorative, but supposedly functional.

On top of that, they stick paper to their armor with wax seals, slap skulls in random places and even have reliquary hanging from their waist in several models. - I already mentioned often optional baubles, if you can't see the difference that's on you

The Imperium is constantly decking its Angels of Death with weird crap. You'll have to live with it. - it tends to be an optional aesthetic on top of simpler design

Try not to stare directly at the grey knights. - not a vanilla marine, duh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 06:12:58


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So Vanilla like this then:

Spoiler:


I mean that's obviously not a stylized skull mask right? It's not like we've been playing for five editions with marines with skull masks, because I just can't see the resemblance at all between that and this:

Spoiler:

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Dark angels - 2k


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 Grimgold wrote:
So Vanilla like this then:

Spoiler:


I mean that's obviously not a stylized skull mask right? It's not like we've been playing for five editions with marines with skull masks, because I just can't see the resemblance at all between that and this:

Spoiler:


You're late to the party.

Insectum7 wrote:
Heavy stylization is very different from sculpting a literal skull onto something.
. . .
The different levels of stylization much less so. Mk 7 helmets are *much* further from "skull" than Chaplains or Reivers.


As in, yes, the Mk7 helm is a stylized skull. But it's a *heavily* stylized skull, with simple forms and crude functionality. The level of stylization on the Reivers is much less so. There's a nose cavity, cheekbones, and a proportional mouth with actual teeth on it. Truly you can see there's a distinction, no? If there were a line graph with "actual skull" at 0, and "SW Stormtrooper helm" at 10, the Mk7 would sit comfortably at 9 or 10, imo. The Reiver face mask would sit around a 3. Feel free to disagree with the precise numbers there, but there's a clear difference between the two.



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I actually like the intercessor models. I also agree that I don't see Ultra Marines using a terror unit like Rievers. That feels very wrong. Agressors and inceptors are just bad models.

What I hate is what they have done with the lore to justify these new models. It is really awful. Like bad, bad, bad.

I will never play them. And in my personal cannon, Silver Skulls never receive Primaris and are suspicious of the rumors of G man's return and what he is doing. They are apart of the Imperium Nihilus afterall.

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I like them just fine, and I hope their scale becomes the new standard.

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With the exception of some of the "easy to build" or starter set type models, aren't the heads of the kits separate? Can't you just make them how you like them?

I'm doing all MK3 helmets because they're my favorite.

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 Chamberlain wrote:
With the exception of some of the "easy to build" or starter set type models, aren't the heads of the kits separate? Can't you just make them how you like them?


Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

And yeah, even the Easy-to-Build ones are an easy head swap. People are just going to gripe about change.
   
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Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Bowlegged squatter Marines need to go.


That was fast.




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 Insectum7 wrote:
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hey, it's not about being happy with your own models! You have to be upset with how other people have their models!

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Bowlegged squatter Marines need to go.


That was fast.




Zing!
   
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If you don’t like the skull helms just use other ones instead problem solved.

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 SickSix wrote:
I actually like the intercessor models. I also agree that I don't see Ultra Marines using a terror unit like Rievers. That feels very wrong. Agressors and inceptors are just bad models.

What I hate is what they have done with the lore to justify these new models. It is really awful. Like bad, bad, bad.

I will never play them. And in my personal cannon, Silver Skulls never receive Primaris and are suspicious of the rumors of G man's return and what he is doing. They are apart of the Imperium Nihilus afterall.


whats wrong about the ultramarines using terror units? Remember the Ultramarines schitick is GENERALISTS. no they're not gonna go "night lords" on a planet. but targeted precise use of terror to sow confusion in an enemies lines? valid tactic.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
[That was fast.





Incorrect. I criticize the mold of OldMarines. It's really, really out of date. And terribly scaled.

What you want on your table, IDGAF. Put pony heads on them for all I care. I'm just happy to see the Primaris model looks reasonably well-constructed.
   
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I actually really love all the Primaris stuff (Reivers least of all) as they are excellent models with awesome proportions. I just have a hard time reconciling their fluff into the lore as GW has made them. I think they could have had a better intro than as the Deux ex Machina to keep the status quo of Marines in the fluff (and sales).

I mean, the look of Aggressors is exactly what the bodies of the Centurions should have been, even if just for standard Astartes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 23:16:41




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I like all the new Primaris things, I didn't like the Inceptors on the box but when I got them and made some changes to them I really dig them now.

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