Fixing Dark Reapers

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**skchsan**

Math aside, you have to realize how powerful of an ability 'Inescapable Accuracy' is.

It ignores move-and-fire heavy weapon penalty - akin to PotMS.
It ignores 'Hard to Hit' innate to fliers.
It ignores -hit modifiers granted by Chapter Tactics and units like Dark Shroud.

An ability that's akin to abilities granted to the most powerful of the units, that ignores inherent defensive capabilities that's normally mitigated by dedicated AA platforms, and that which nullifies a Chapter Tactics costing 8 ppm is outright outrageous.

**pismakron**

Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

**Galef**

pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

Ding! Ding! we have a winner!

**Johnbox24**

Inescapable accuracy could be made into a stratagem for 1 CP. Cheap enough for 1 unit to use without too much discomfort when necessary but still prevents senseless spam due to the one of a kind stratagem per phase rule

Hell, it could even be a 0 CP stratagem and still work that way

**Shadenuat**

Stratagem idea is nice. Especially since aspect warriors just don't have any reasonable amount of stratagems dedicated for them to use.

**Elbows**

pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

And again, no. Eldar are glass cannons, and Dark Reapers have always been glass cannons. They've also always been armed with proper missile launchers until GW retro'ed that for a while. Stop trying to make them into something they're not.

**skchsan**

Johnbox24 wrote:
Inescapable accuracy could be made into a stratagem for 1 CP. Cheap enough for 1 unit to use without too much discomfort when necessary but still prevents senseless spam due to the one of a kind stratagem per phase rule

Hell, it could even be a 0 CP stratagem and still work that way

I love this 0 CP concept. It's not a game changer but puts limits to how many times the OP-ness of certain units can be used in matched play.

If the main special abilities for units became stratagems, it could potentially promote diversity of units instead of min-maxing the most efficient units.

**Martel732**

Elbows wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

And again, no. Eldar are glass cannons, and Dark Reapers have always been glass cannons. They've also always been armed with proper missile launchers until GW retro'ed that for a while. Stop trying to make them into something they're not.

50 ppm it is, then.

**Galef**

No other Aspect Warrior comes close to 40ppm, so why would Reapers?
All Aspect Warriors (except Crimson Hunters) are a single Eldar + Armour + Wargear + Special skill.
Spears are rightly the most expensive as they are "equipped" with Jetbikes and could easily be bumped to 35ppm

Reapers should really be in between Spears and Spiders in terms of cost. The rules should then reflect that cost (i.e. make the Launcher put out less damage)
Add to this a max unit size of 5, and not only are Reapers putting out less damage, but you can only put buffs on 5 of them at a time.

Still a glass cannon, but not a diamond incrusted gold-lined glass cannon.

-

**Martel732**

Because that's how they play in practice with no changes to damage.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
Because that's how they play in practice with no changes to damage.

And my point is that they SHOULDN'T play that way in practice. They need to be toned down, not priced up.
There is a tangible difference between those 2 nerfs. One makes the unit balanced, the other relegates the unit to a dust collector.

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**Martel732**

I'm replying to the other guy's suggestion of no nerfs. I agree with your fix.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
I'm replying to the other guy's suggestion of no nerfs. I agree with your fix.

Right, sorry.

In any case, I don't see any real "fixes" coming soon. In all likelihood, we are just going to get a Chapter Approved price increase.
If GW was smart, they would see the obvious opportunity they have to just update all the Aspect Warriors to plastic and release some sort of update to the rules accordingly.

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**Martel732**

Are these guys finecrap or metal right now?

**Galas**

Why don't give Dark Reapers a +1 to hit units that have moved more than 10" in his turn?

That goes with their lore of having tools to track down fast moving targets. And remove the "always hit on a 3+"

**Turnip Jedi**

I'm in the lower the damage output a sliver, just putting the points up means a switch to bikes, spectres etc, also hoping more data from big events is considered before any changes as one meta break out isn't a big enough sample

**thejughead**

Part of the issue not being discussed is the Ynarri detachment allowing them to shoot twice and benefit from stratagems and psychic powers. Ynarri should lose <Craftworld> keyword, IMO.

**Galef**

thejughead wrote:
Part of the issue not being discussed is the Ynarri detachment allowing them to shoot twice and benefit from stratagems and psychic powers. Ynarri should lose <Craftworld> keyword, IMO.

I have addressed this issue. It is one of the main reasons I think Reapers should be max unit size 5, not 10.
Ynnari can only do a certain kind of Soulburst once per turn, so "Shoot twice" can only be done by 1 unit per turn.
5 models shooting twice with less damage per shot is WAAAY less powerful than 10 models shooting twice at their current output.

Martel732 wrote:
Are these guys finecrap or metal right now?

Reapers are currently failcast and constantly out of stock.

-

**Martel732**

Of course they are.

**thejughead**

Well you should also be talking about shining spears as well. They can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn. Again, all tied to Ynarri detachment and <Craftworld> abuse.

**mokoshkana**

thejughead wrote:
Well you should also be talking about shining spears as well. They can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn. Again, all tied to Ynarri detachment and <Craftworld> abuse.

This thread is about "Fixing Dark Reapers"

**JNAProductions**

Elbows wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

And again, no. Eldar are glass cannons, and Dark Reapers have always been glass cannons. They've also always been armed with proper missile launchers until GW retro'ed that for a while. Stop trying to make them into something they're not.

They're far too good right now. They either need to go up in price, or be adjusted to be less powerful. Do you disagree with that?

**mokoshkana**

JNAProductions wrote:
Elbows wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

And again, no. Eldar are glass cannons, and Dark Reapers have always been glass cannons. They've also always been armed with proper missile launchers until GW retro'ed that for a while. Stop trying to make them into something they're not.

They're far too good right now. They either need to go up in price, or be adjusted to be less powerful. Do you disagree with that?

I think Shadenuat hit the nail on the head:

Shadenuat wrote:
Putting random or just dumb propositions from haters and people who never even played that unit, like 50 ppw and crappy weapons, aside, when we speak about things that look reasonable - mainly changing squad to size of 3 to 5, we need to concider something.

The reason why this change looks reasonable is entirely due to synergies, not just Reapers themselves, mainly the Ynnari double tap + Guide & Stratagems. This is due to already solid damage many Eldar units do being magnified further by them.

But if we go into that thinking, what other units are too powerful and could use a smaller squad size? Shining Spears? Then someone would argue, double-tapping 10 Dragons is too much. So make them also most of 5 models per squad? How about Guardians? 20 Guardians make some decent shooting. Double tap that for 80 shots with rending. Swooping Hawks? Actually tournament viable, 80 Lasblaster shots. Wraithguard with D-Scythes or Wraithcannons? Etc., etc.

As long as that synergy between eldar factions exist, you either balance all Eldar for Ynnari, or do not. If you do not, double activations take Eldar unit's already conciderable damage (because that's what they are about - mobility and focus fire) into stratosphere. If you do, everything without Ynnari would end up underwhelming. So everyone would keep taking Ynnari.

That's even if we concider that 40K should be balanced around sportshammer and tryhards who take 30 reapers. Note that Reapers were already 36 ppw in Index. They were dropped by 33% of their cost almost. Whatever that meant.
Personally, I'd begin with adding that 20-30% extra back. The further you go, the closer you'd be to butchering the unit. However, it would not solve Ynnari & Alaitoc. Because double activations & hit penalties are larger threat to game balance than any single unit. I mean, why SHOULD unit be balanced because a faction doctrine exists? From game design point, every other doctrine should be just as viable, and, say, Biel-Tan Reapers (who would be a lot easier to kill for IG, for example) shouldn't suffer price increase because Alaitoc Reapers are too powerful - and so on.

Eldar have always been about synergy. Most (not all but most) units in the Codex, when viewed individually, are not that bad. When you start tacking the buffs, strategems, etc on top, is when things start getting pretty insane. I've only been playing Eldar since the tail end of 6th, but it has been my humble opinion that the struggle has been around balancing the synergies. Ynnari compounded that by adding a whole new level of crazy synergy. As that faction is currently a part of the game, it has to be taken into account when we talk about fixing Reapers, but we also have to consider a balanced fix that doesn't make Craftworld Reapers trash because the proper balance was done for Ynnari. Galef has some solid ideas for this, but as Shadenuat noted, Reapers received a point reduction in the Codex. I remember thinking it was unnecessary at the time, and the proof has definitely been in the pudding on that one.

**thejughead**

Le sigh!

mokoshkana wrote:
thejughead wrote:
Well you should also be talking about shining spears as well. They can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn. Again, all tied to Ynarri detachment and <Craftworld> abuse.

This thread is about "Fixing Dark Reapers"

**Martel732**

36 ppm is way too cheap, but it would be a start.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think 36 ppm is way too cheap, but it would be a start. I don't list 50 ppm lightly.

**Galef**

mokoshkana wrote:
thejughead wrote:
Well you should also be talking about shining spears as well. They can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn. Again, all tied to Ynarri detachment and <Craftworld> abuse.

This thread is about "Fixing Dark Reapers"

Indeed this thread is about Reapers, but I have stated before that I think Spears should also be capped at 5 models per unit

I also feel that this statement is disingenuous: "can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn" as this also requires a Psyker to can a power in order to work. You pay the points for the Psyker too and it is hardly a garunteed power to go off.
The same logic applies to Reapers. the biggest issue with them is being able to stack buffs on them. If you reduce their unit size, buffs to not work as efficiently. Reapers also need their damage output lowered.

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**Martel732**

There is no heavy support in the game that can do what reapers do for 36 ppm. Thats before buffs and craftworld bonuses.

**mokoshkana**

Martel732 wrote:
There is no heavy support in the game that can do what reapers do for 36 ppm. Thats before buffs and craftworld bonuses.

Absolutely agree, but there are numerous other units that cannot do X for the cost of Y. This isn't chess, so one armies pawns will not be a 1 to 1 match with the other armies pawns. That is not to say that Reapers don't need adjusted because they absolutely do. It does however need to be done in a manner which allows them remain relevant as opposed to putting them on the bench. Just look Wraithknights for what happens when a unit is overnerfed to the point of making it useless. WK's were broken in 7th so 8th fixed it by making them unusable for their points cost. Raising Reapers to 40ppm will do just that.

**Martel732**

40 is still too low to be a fair unit. 200 pts for 5 of these guys is a steal. Go look at what other factions get for 200 pts.

**mokoshkana**

Martel732 wrote:
40 is still too low to be a fair unit. 200 pts for 5 of these guys is a steal. Go look at what other factions get for 200 pts.

Obliterators (3 for 195) are pretty amazing for their points. Should we go ahead and raise the points for that unit too? They can deepstrike where needed, and if I am not mistaken, they can use a Strategem to shoot twice in the same turn. With a 24 inch range, they can get their firepower where its needed pretty easily.

When you look at what Reapers provide, you have to remember that they struggle in close combat. Marine equivalents, while not as brutal in shooting abilities, get +1 str and tough. Reapers can be tied up in close combat, although that isn't easily accomplished.