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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
I guess I should have had him look that up. You can understand why I believed him, though. They still have easy access to 2+ and FNP 5+. T3 is moot at that point.
I absolutely get what you are saying. I have always had issues with players crying foul about Eldar when they just don't know what the rules actually do.

The issue with Reapers is less about the unit itself and more about how easy it is to buff 10 of them at a time. Reapers alone are easy to deal with, but they exist in an army that prides itself on buffs and shenanigans. Rather than over-react to the Reapers themselves, I am suggesting to make it harder to buff so many at once (max unit size 5), alone with a slight points increase (+8ppm to make them 35ppm total) AND making their special snowflake rule less effective in today's meta (only ever -1 to hit rather than ignoring them all entirely).

-

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Maybe that works. But 35ppm is such a deal for their ammo options. 3 ppm less than a marine dev, but twice as effective.

Maybe we should compare to dakkafexes or something else. I'm pretty discouraged by the LVO final.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




It's not just the 3+ but that both of their forms of ammo are just bonkers good. Give them the same switchable stats as a marine ML and a regular 3+ to hit and they'd be good.

The 2 shots,s5, -2 ap, 2 damage shoot is just too good (should be assault d6, no ap, 1 damage, s4) The one shot s8, -2 ap, 3 damage is fine as long as it doesn't hit everything on a 3+ and is buffed to hell as well as impossible to avoid/shoot first. Add a special rule that if they don't move they can ignore a single -1 to hit but if they move they get a -1 to hit with their heavy version. Keep them cheaper than ML dev marines and problem solved.

The other thing that makes them too good are the strats and spells as other people are catching onto. Strength from death, webway, damn near invincible transports, move shoot move, re-deploy, additional - to hit all of them are heads and shoulders above what's available to vanilla marines (not as bad against other armies but they still seem like the best strats/spells in the game) which further pushes them down the path of OP.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"The 2 shots,s5, -2 ap, 2 damage shoot is just too good"

Primaris = autowin for the Eldar.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I can agree with the secondary mode needing some tweaking. I was originally going to address that in my original post, but didn't want to get bogged down with the specifics on that.

I'd actually be cool with the second mode being a whole separate gun option, but since the model doesn't support that, I can't think it will happen.

If the secondary mode was S4, 3shots, Ap-1, 1 damage, or something similar I think it would still serve a purpose without being "too good".
You'd basically get 2 modes, 1 similar to a ML, but worse (less potential damage, the other similar to a Heavy bolter, but worse.

Another option that I think could really work (and one GW might adopt) is to FAQ the S8 mode to be damage D3, instead of straight 3 like they did with the Starcannon. If they do this AND make the S5 mode only 1 damage per shot (and still 2 shots), I really think that could address the issue of them "putting out more damage than they should)

There are just so, so many ways to fix them without nerfing them into the ground.

-

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




D3 damage and 1 damage respectively would help a LOT, and might need to remedy the need for other changes.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
D3 damage and 1 damage respectively would help a LOT, and might need to remedy the need for other changes.

Yeah, the more I think about it, I think lowering the damage in this way would almost eliminate the need for any other change

Although max unit size 5 just makes a lot of sense too.

-

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Just so the buffs don't get silly.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Just make 30-32 points. The rules are fluffy and fit; they just need to pay for them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just make 30-32 points. The rules are fluffy and fit; they just need to pay for them.

I wouldn't say that the rules are necessarily fluffy.

The Reaper Rangefinder is supposed to aid them in tracking trajectories and firing angles for attacking fast moving targets. It's like the Hydra Autocannon Targeting Array.

It would be one thing if, say, they had a 'mortar missile' that got some kind of ranging benefit from it(like if firing that missile, you got to reroll all failed to hit rolls against units in cover) and then another missile that was better against flying things and the like...but as it stands, it's like the Wyvern Mortar. There's no real downside to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 19:44:20


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Another option for the "Inescapable accuracy" rule is to make it dependent on them remaining stationary. That would make hiding in a Serpent or using the Web way a more risky tactic.

Add that to the damage being D3 on the S8 mode and only 1 for the S5 mode and no points increase is really necessary.

-

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Galef wrote:
Another option for the "Inescapable accuracy" rule is to make it dependent on them remaining stationary. That would make hiding in a Serpent or using the Web way a more risky tactic.

Add that to the damage being D3 on the S8 mode and only 1 for the S5 mode and no points increase is really necessary.

-

Realistically?

If Inescapable Accuracy has to remain in a form near what it is now?
I'd change it to be only on the S8 mode and to require them to remain stationary and to have fired at the target previously.

If Markerlights, which are targeting lasers, only boost BS by +1? Then Reaper Rangefinders need to be EXTREMELY situational and to be extremely restrictive as well.
Alternatively, we could go the route that they chose to go for the Skitarii. Make it a Stratagem for ignoring -1 to Hit rolls, you get to ignore up to -2 to Hit rolls if you have Maugan Ra near you or something.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

Reapers are supposed to be the anti tank infantry. I think most units have it. A Thunderer or Devestartor unit. Maybe the Imperial Guard don't.

A guard/Tactical marine/defender guardian all have access to one heavy weapon.

The Reapers are the Eldar Heavy Weaponry infantry.

If you get lascannons that do d6 dmg, and ML that do d6 and Reapers are nerfed to d3 damage.....wow.

I am glad you guys don't write the rules.

My reapers die every game to mortal wounds from Biovores and Hive Guard or Basilisk/Manticores.

I am all for modifiers since 2nd edition was easy math despite the designers belief we cannot add/subtract as players.

Inescapable Accuracy is not a fluff rule. I'm all for a +1 to hit for the Range Finder....so modifiers would still work....or as suggested it ignores speed to hit modifiers.

But in a Game where it is as easy to shoot a stationary BaneBlade as it is a weaving and flying jetbike going over 20" it is kinda dumb.

So I'm still waiting for how you want the elder to have a unit of infantry with heavy anti tank weapons.....BECAUSE your suggestions will turn Reapers into Bike/Terminator/etc killers and that is it. They will not be used to fight tanks anymore at all.


 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

And Fire Dragons are...?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
And Fire Dragons are...?


non-useful pieces garbage in a competitive environment.

A agree with the above. there is nerf, then there is overnerf.

you think they're undercosted? sure, let's increase that slightly. NOT to the point of an ML marine, because no one uses ML marine because they're OVERcosted.

As I have said elsewhere, the problem lies in the blanket ability to ignore hit mods combined with a decent weapon. change inescapable accuracy to "Ignores the effects of the 'Airborne' ability" done, 90% of the problem solved, bump by 4ppm and see how that works. you'll still see reapers, just not anywhere near as many.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 04:23:47


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Pay 50 ppm then for all those rules.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

They will be overnerfed. Be sure about that. Maybe they will be buffed after that.

Or maybe don't, and GW pulls out a intelligent nerf like they did with Celestine. The more elegant balance change they have done in all of 8th edition.

But even if they aren't overnerfed, people will believe they are. Because in the min/maxing meta of Warhammer, you are the best, or you just don't are. At least in the mind of players (LVO has shown that actually 8th has a much higher variety than previous editions) Any nerf that drops Dark Reapers from their position will be received as them being destroyed and out of the meta.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 04:46:03


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
Pay 50 ppm then for all those rules.


you're being entirely unreasonable.

I've pointed out the current state of marines doesn't reflect appropriate costing.

the idea behind fixing a unit is to make it useful and valuable in a list while removing the problem, not nerf it into oblivion never to be seen again.

just because you got boned by being the first codex to be released in an edition before costing problems were apparent doesn't give you the magical right to be a salty

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 04:52:26


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
And Fire Dragons are...?


7 points with no weapon. The ONLY option is then to buy the 17 point Fusion Gun. They are 4+ save vs the reapers 3+ save. So if reapers would be a base 8 points that should even things out. {that is a 3 point price increase for those that could not follow or do easy math]

Not that there is such a thing.

13 point Tac Marines are considered subpar by some.
12 point Dire Avengers seem average to most.

So for 1 point more Marines get a 1 Move slower with +1 STR +1 Toughness, ATSKNF, 3+save vs 4+save, 24" range rapid fire gun vs the 18" assault with special 6+ to wound and no Battle Focus, Pretty good for 1 point IMO.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





Fire Dragons have the same 3+ save as Dark Reapers do.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 WindstormSCR wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Pay 50 ppm then for all those rules.


you're being entirely unreasonable.

I've pointed out the current state of marines doesn't reflect appropriate costing.

the idea behind fixing a unit is to make it useful and valuable in a list while removing the problem, not nerf it into oblivion never to be seen again.

just because you got boned by being the first codex to be released in an edition before costing problems were apparent doesn't give you the magical right to be a salty
Is he though? Something that shoots at unmodifiable BS, deals flat damage roughly equal to mathematical average of ML, and scalable without ablative wound taxes is 30% cheaper? Surely this is fairly priced. 40 ppm is the bare minimum cost, 42~46 ppm competitively costed, with 47~50 ppm starting to become overpriced but not to a point where it becomes unusable.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 skchsan wrote:
 WindstormSCR wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Pay 50 ppm then for all those rules.


you're being entirely unreasonable.

I've pointed out the current state of marines doesn't reflect appropriate costing.

the idea behind fixing a unit is to make it useful and valuable in a list while removing the problem, not nerf it into oblivion never to be seen again.

just because you got boned by being the first codex to be released in an edition before costing problems were apparent doesn't give you the magical right to be a salty
Is he though? Something that shoots at unmodifiable BS, deals flat damage roughly equal to mathematical average of ML, and scalable without ablative wound taxes is 30% cheaper? Surely this is fairly priced. 40 ppm is the bare minimum cost, 42~46 ppm competitively costed, with 47~50 ppm starting to become overpriced but not to a point where it becomes unusable.



no one here with any sense is defending unmodifiable BS. an alternative with a bonus that can be canceled, sure, or that has a much more narrow scope.

once you fix that, the rest of it is easier to handle.

the other major problem is that if you balloon the cost of the unit AND remove unmodifiable BS, as soon as you hit 40ppm the answer just becomes "take a fire prism"
   
Made in kr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 admironheart wrote:
Reapers are supposed to be the anti tank infantry.

I am all for modifiers since 2nd edition was easy math despite the designers belief we cannot add/subtract as players.

Inescapable Accuracy is not a fluff rule. I'm all for a +1 to hit for the Range Finder....so modifiers would still work....or as suggested it ignores speed to hit modifiers.

But in a Game where it is as easy to shoot a stationary BaneBlade as it is a weaving and flying jetbike going over 20" it is kinda dumb.

So I'm still waiting for how you want the elder to have a unit of infantry with heavy anti tank weapons.....BECAUSE your suggestions will turn Reapers into Bike/Terminator/etc killers and that is it. They will not be used to fight tanks anymore at all.



Actually, this was always their role - they are light armor and heavy infantry killers.
Sure, they have access to anti-tank, but this was not their primary role, not originally, as of course tanks were quite rare back in the day.
They should do well enough against light tanks, but not a land raider equivalent.
For that, the Fire Dragons are the weapon of choice, that and d-cannons and those, well, have also lost a bit of their character.
D-cannons just don;t seem so special anymore, not like in 2nd ed.

The point about movement not making a difference, this is the big deal in my opinion.
Dumbing down the rules just wrecked so much of the game.
GW should pull the plug on 8th ed. altogether,
or release 'advanced' rules or more-fine-grained rules, or perhaps just rule variants, e.g.
System 1 - play this way or System 1A, play this way or...
depending on the granularity that the players are seeking.
people seem to champion 8th for the chance to play 3000points in 2 hours, but this is what Epic was for.
GW should give options to recreate a 1500pt or less battlefield.
Reintroduce movement rates and vehicle facings,
also inviting heavy infantry,
and then you have room for the special rules that should give reapers their special character.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Eh. I think we were closer to something workable on page 1 when we were basically just talking about a mild cost boost and a smaller squad size.

While I acknowledge that reapers could stand to be toned down, I'm also hesitant to nerf them to oblivion. They were basically unfieldable for a long time. last edition, they were reasonable, and not a ton has changed since then. I'm going to be that guy and play daemon's advocate for a moment.

Before Reapers could take multiple high strength weapons, they were basically unfieldable because most players don't need more strength 5 in their army. sure, reapers could always sweep through a tactical squad efficiently, but so does basically every other gun in the army. If we force reapers into a low damage niche again, we basically make them an expensive, probably redundant anti infantry option that we don't need and probably won't take.

If you make them 50 points apiece, then you have a unit with basically worse firepower than a falcon for a similar price tag with 4 (including exarch) wounds on T3 bodies instead of 12 wounds on a T7 body. And the falcon is considered one of our worst choices. So at that point, they stop being cost effective but relatively vulnerable fire support and become a suboptimal choice that you only take for fluff purposes.

Also, let's talk damage output. While pretty much everyone acknowledges that devastators are overpriced and thus a worse deal than reapers (who are probably underpriced), I feel that the differences in their weapons are severely exaggerated. On average, a krak missile does .5 more damage than a reaper launcher. So a slight edge to the marines, but basically comparable. Sometimes the damage rolls low. It happens. Rolling a 1 for damage against many targets is a lot like failing to hit/wound in the first place. But sometimes you kill that enemy rhino with two shots or that enemy venom with 1. The reliable 3 damage of a reaper launcher is great, but it also means you need to get 4 reaper missiles through to kill that same rhino instead of just 2 slightly lucky ones.

As for comparing them to dragons, dragons do more damage than reapers outside of melta range, can potentially two-shot a rhino like any other d6 damage weapon, and do significantly more damage than reapers when you're going after that primarch in your back lines that absolutely positively must die right now. So higher average and potential damage, but you have to get them close to be in range. Seems like a decent trade-off.

The "always hit on 3+" rule is great... when it matters. Generally, I put my reapers up on terrain so they have better line of sight, at which point they tend not to move around much. So in most games, the range finder is really only useful the turn you pop out from behind a building or inside a wave serpent. If you're prone to rolling a ton of 3s instead of 1's, 2's, 4's, 5's, or 6's, then that can make a huge difference. For those of us who tend to roll about a single 3 out of every 6 dice, it's significantly less big of a deal. It does negate the faction-wide special abilities of anyone playing Ravenguard, Alpha Legion, or Alaitoc, which is kind of lame, and it does interact oddly with the Culexus, which I struggle to feel bad about, but it's otherwise kind of situational. Also, I thought most people were mildly irritated at all the -1 to hit rules floating around. Is the presence of a unit that discourages playing all Alaitoc all the time really all that bad of a thing?

Any complaints of "but you can give them all the buffs" is probably more elegantly addressed by limiting squad size. This includes Strength From Death, a rule which you probably don't see a ton of since Ynnari were nerfed into the ground.

We don't need to make their guns strength 2 with 1 damage and special rules that make them BS6+ if they move at 50 points a model. We just need to make some minor tweaks and acknowledge that missile marines are overpriced.

Sorry for the rant there. I'd just rather discuss reasonable adjustments that leave a unit playable rather than over the top nerfs that render reapers unplayable. (Like they were for most of the last 20ish years.)


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

So to recap, I have settled on the following changes:

-S8 mode is now D3 damage instead of straight 3 (GW already did this with Starcannons in an FAQ for this very Codex)
-S5 mode is now only 1 damage per shot
-Max unit size is only 5, not 10

That pretty much solves all the major issues with Reapers without having to price them up out of viability or tweaking their special rules.
Less damage and smaller unit sizes mitigates both their effectiveness and the ability to layer buffs onto more Reapers.
Forewarning is now much less of a "delete X unit that drops in LoS of 10 Guided Reapers". 5 Reapers can do a good bit of damage to a unit with Forewarning, but it is much less likely to outright delete them

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 14:54:18


   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Gotta disagree, personally. D3 damage is the bane of heavy weapons, and I don't think anyone would take Reapers with that "fix" as you call it.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Yes they would. D3 damage can still one shot custodes and such. And they are still amazingly accurate. They just can't drag down land raiders.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Nope. That would be a crap weapon choice.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Only because you are spoiled by the current incarnation. Which is worth far, far more points than its current cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 15:45:18


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

If you don't want D3 damage, then how about Damage 2 instead of 3? We could also tweak the secondary mode to S5, 3 shots Ap-2, Damage 1.

I actually agree with Martel that Reapers are just too reliable at causing damage per point. My solution is to reduce that damage, Martel's solution is to raise the points cost.
Both solutions achieve a similar affect.

Currently 6 Reapers cost about as much as 1 Fire Prism, yet easily do more damage. I am trying to fix that without jacking the points cost up to the point that Reapers become a "Why bother?" option (like the Falcon)

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 15:55:06


   
 
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