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torblind wrote:
[q

I keep coming back to somehow allowing RP even if a unit is wiped. Models dying this turn could have an end of turn RP on 6+ for example, and then possibly normal 5+ start of your next imediate turn.

Then suddenly your enemy wouldn't want to wipe a large unit in one go. If you wipe lets say 20 warriors as a result of enemies shooting, psychic and fight phase, then you would have an imediate 6+ end-of-turn RP for 20 models lost that round (getting you back 3), and then 5+ for the remaining 17, getting you back another 6.

Much better then to stop when its withered down to perhaps 2-3, even letting me pay 2CP to pass morale. Then next time, when they are back up to only 7-8, he could wipe them all, perhaps without me rolling any end-of-turn 6s for those that died that turn.

Perhaps allow this only once per game, but then you have to keep track which is a burden.

Problem with NOT having it as once per game is that kill points will either be ridiculously easy wins for enemy(you get 1KP every time you kill unit. It comes back, you kill again, you get yet another KP. Oh and as much keeping track anyway...) or necrons will be basically impossible to win in kill point scenarios. Especially if necrons go 2nd(so necrons winning who goes first roll=necron win) as you would would need to have unit dead on the end of game which means if necrons go 2nd will get RP for every model before game ends...So basically would be super unlucky to have any units barring characters actually dead in the end...

There HAS to be some way to kill necron unit and keep it dead without relying on failing every single RP roll for 10+ models. By very minimum you need to decide does the unit come down on more likely to fail roll than "5+ for 10 models, if even 1 succeeds no KP for you nyahnyahnyah". Or alternatively all "kill unit, score X" end of game victory conditions needs to die. Which albeit is option I could get behind with.

One possibility could be that you can can Roll RP for a wiped unit, but any models that fail are permanently gone. So if a wiped unit comes back with 1 model, that unit is going to stay with 1 model.
Res Orbs could waive this caveat, thus giving them a reason to be taken.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
One possibility could be that you can can Roll RP for a wiped unit, but any models that fail are permanently gone. So if a wiped unit comes back with 1 model, that unit is going to stay with 1 model.
Res Orbs could waive this caveat, thus giving them a reason to be taken.

Or allow it once only, as you do with the stratagems for characters

Or, as I stated on the previous page, only let models roll for rp if they were killed in the last round. You would leave the models on the table, so don't give up the kp until the unit doesn't come back. That way they take a really long time to completely wipe out, but get weaker and weaker such that balancing them isn't a problem.

The res orb could give you a one time roll for every dead model, not just ones from the last round.


As for Gauss giving an extra damage on a 6 - that's a really nice idea. Would mean normal warriors could do hard damage against elite infantry, and strengthen heavy weapons...

From a casual player's perspective...

HQs seem generally fine. Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Wraiths and Scarabs seem generally fine and usually do good work for me.

Most everything else in the Codex? Meh... I'd almost always rather just have more of the above. I'd like to see a lot of price drops to make other options a little more points efficient.

 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature

 pique311 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature

You're joking right

Don't worry. Nothing will happen to the RP rule. All we (hopefully) get are point reductions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.

Exactly. Modifiers to hit/wound should never stack imo, cover should be granted more easily and 1s always fail and 6s always hit.


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torblind wrote:

 pique311 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature

You're joking right

I am not. I'm just suggesting a 5+ (4+ with cryptek) after you fail a save, but before rolling dmg. Quite simple and not overpowered. Could be improved in some way with strats and the orb. How do you feel is "a joke"?

 pique311 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.

Exactly. Modifiers to hit/wound should never stack imo, cover should be granted more easily and 1s always fail and 6s always hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

 pique311 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature

You're joking right

I am not. I'm just suggesting a 5+ (4+ with cryptek) after you fail a save, but before rolling dmg. Quite simple and not overpowered. Could be improved in some way with strats and the orb. How do you feel is "a joke"?

This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.

torblind wrote:

This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.

Well, I did get this by chance, as I had not played necrons before march this year. I knew a thing or two about them in older editions, but not the exact rule. Not a bad joke by any means. Anyway, leaving all this behind, I do think it is better than the rule we have now.

 pique311 wrote:

torblind wrote:

This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.

Well, I did get this by chance, as I had not played necrons before march this year. I knew a thing or two about them in older editions, but not the exact rule. Not a bad joke by any means. Anyway, leaving all this behind, I do think it is better than the rule we have now.

Yeah, its likely someone think about something like this to "fix things" at one time point. It's not necessarily a bad solution. Powerwise necrons were a top-tier army with this mechanic for RP. But they gave it to Death Guard, and changed Necron RP to be something very different. They won't re-do all that.

People complained how Necrons were unkillable, and there was no fun in just rolling a bunch of dice all the time.

torblind wrote:

Yeah, its likely someone think about something like this to "fix things" at one time point. It's not necessarily a bad solution. Powerwise necrons were a top-tier army with this mechanic for RP. But they gave it to Death Guard, and changed Necron RP to be something very different. They won't re-do all that.

People complained how Necrons were unkillable, and there was no fun in just rolling a bunch of dice all the time.

Okay, I can see why they changed it. Then, what other ways do we have to fix RP? The rule we have now is okay in low-point games, but it doesn't stack at 1000+ points, and is very easy to counter; as many have pointed. So, what could we realistically do to improve it appart from points-drop?

Allow RP rolls at the end of your own Fight phase, before morale.

"Long time" reader, first time poster here. I figured it's time to weigh in, because one possibility to improve RP without making it too OP, has rarely been mentioned or discussed here.
For one, I would like to see RP done at the end of the movement phase for obvious reasons already discussed before.
What RP lacks however, is reactiveness. We know that in 1k+ games, the opponent can pretty much control RP. So I would like to see two changes. 1) Change the wording on the resurrection orb to: …, once per battle, you can make RP rolls for… You see that I just deleted the timing clause in the rule, meaning that we can make an RP roll at any point in the game and thereby react to our enemy focusing a unit. That way we can at least try to save a unit from being focused down. Second, I would like to see the exact same ability on a 2CP? stratagem, it can imo replace “enhanced reanimation protocols” as it is utter crap atm.
These changes would give us the ability to at least try to be reactive with RP, without it being OP, as it either costs points (the orb)/CP and doesn’t simply bring back entire units, that were already destroyed like “tide of traitors” (I hate these abilities and think they are OP and unfun).

I could see it working this way....
At any time, use the Res Orb to immediately roll RP.

That would include your opponent's shooting/assault phase.

Otherwise, I think a solid hunk of our issues can be addressed via price cuts. Immortals to 15-16 points, Warriors to 11. HQs need to be made cheaper across the board maybe 5 points.

A whole bunch of our codex is overpriced, points cuts let us field more units, which give us a chance to spread damage, which increases the likelihood of rolling RP.

I really like the idea of allowing the Res Orb to roll for RP at any point in the game. Its so simple, I wish I thought of that.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

 pique311 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 pique311 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.

You'd need less wounding hits to take down a vehicle and you can one shot primaris. D2 is pretty good.
Yeah, restricting it to gauss immortals and warriors doesn't really make sense, as there are other units that use gauss weapons. Destroyers come to mind.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.

I meant units with gauss weaponry

Reading through previous posts;
1. Rolling for RP at the end of the movement phase sounds good. It probably won't do too much (unless I'm missing something), but I'd certainly consider taking a Cloak-tek more often and that alone is worth something.
2. Popping a Rez Orb to roll for RP on the spot is a really cool idea, and I think something that would allow for more reactivity as a Necron player. Would also make the silly dodge-balls worth their points.
3. Points drops, duh.
4. Gauss needs its old anti-armor teeth back, but in a way that helps our troops without boosting Destroyers as much. How about for some CP (not sure how much), you pick a unit packing Gauss shooting at a Vehicle, and on each Wound roll of a 6 it doesn't get an armor save against that shot? It's sorta-like MW, but Invuln saves are still available so it's not quite as punishing, and has diminishing returns based on existing AP.
5. With regards to rezzing dead units, I think the best way to handle that is something along the lines of:

Even Death May Die (2CP) - Use this stratagem when a Necron unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is completely destroyed. Immediately roll Reanimation Protocols for that unit as if it were the [start of the turn/end of the movement phase], using its previous position for any relevant auras, items and/or abilities. Any models that fail this roll are considered to have fled the unit due to morale losses.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 pique311 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.

You'd need less wounding hits to take down a vehicle and you can one shot primaris. D2 is pretty good.
Yeah, restricting it to gauss immortals and warriors doesn't really make sense, as there are other units that use gauss weapons. Destroyers come to mind.

I think destroyers are pretty good on their own atm. Maybe only give this bonus on a 6 to 1D gauss weaponry (indirect buff to monoliths ftw)

The stratagem for +1 to wound rolls vs vehicles for infantry also sound pretty sweet, and probably less of a sweeping change than changing all gauss weapons.

Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.

Then comes the issue of is it GOOD to have cheap necrons. If elite stuff goes down in points it starts to cram down bottom tier stuff into tight spot until they can't make those cheaper so if upper level stuff comes down in price then good bye balance. And board size starts to be issue...It already IS issue with hordes so dropping points won't help. And necrons don't exactly sound like horde army with all the descriptions about destructive weapons and superior technology.

In short: Rather than make them cheaper I would make them worth their points. The constant drive of point costs down just means you need to buy more models. I rarely hear 40k being too cheap of a hobby...

Now maybe your image of necrons is different but for me it's these robots with advanced weaponry from ages past that makes younger races tremble with fear. Terminator II style rather than Zulu horde so to speak ;-) I want necron stats and rules make opponent go "gulp". Even if it means I wont' have that many models. As long as models are worth it all good.

tneva82 wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.

Then comes the issue of is it GOOD to have cheap necrons. If elite stuff goes down in points it starts to cram down bottom tier stuff into tight spot until they can't make those cheaper so if upper level stuff comes down in price then good bye balance. And board size starts to be issue...It already IS issue with hordes so dropping points won't help. And necrons don't exactly sound like horde army with all the descriptions about destructive weapons and superior technology.

In short: Rather than make them cheaper I would make them worth their points. The constant drive of point costs down just means you need to buy more models. I rarely hear 40k being too cheap of a hobby...

Now maybe your image of necrons is different but for me it's these robots with advanced weaponry from ages past that makes younger races tremble with fear. Terminator II style rather than Zulu horde so to speak ;-) I want necron stats and rules make opponent go "gulp". Even if it means I wont' have that many models. As long as models are worth it all good.

They were kind of both, actually.
On one hand they were extremely deadly and were few in number compared to other races. On the other hand they always attacked in legions and their self-repair abilities as well as teleportation tech made it seem like you were fighting an inexhaustible tide of them. Hence their old tag line "their number is legion their name is death".

What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones. A necron invasion is always accompanied by a swarm of scarabs, so moving them to troops seem logical. Warriors could use a 1-2 point drop so they can fielded in force (as they should be) and tesla carbines and gauss blasters could use a slight points drop as well. In fact, most necron weapons should be made cheaper.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

Nurglings even have infiltrate, don't they? So they could objective secure hold on to objectives even in the face of fast enemy elite units.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

Yeah that's definitely a disconnect.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

They do? Huh, that's goofy. Do they have 10" movement?


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torblind wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

Nurglings even have infiltrate, don't they? So they could objective secure hold on to objectives even in the face of fast enemy elite units.

Oh in that case scarabs can totally objective secure. If other faction's swarms can do it then we should be able to as well.