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 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

As for marines, all the suggestions seem to just loop back around to 'make them primaris' in all but name. Though I suspect if GW did it would just spawn a dozen more threads about why the extra cost that comes with it have made marines terrible.

Indeed which is why these 'Improve marines' threads are so fething pointless. Most of the posters are in denial about the Primaris and try their utmost to pretend they do not exist and then go on reinventing them. "Guys, I have an novel idea how to fix marines, what if they had two attacks and two wounds and AP on their bolters!" It is utterly comical. GW is improving marines, these improvements are called Primaris. Like it or not, that's how it is and wishing for any other path is utterly unrealistic.

Overpriced thought. Intercessors would have to drop to 15ppm before I'd be willing to seriously consider using them.

And that's cool. Without Tacticals that would look even worse next to them I think that's fine.

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

As for marines, all the suggestions seem to just loop back around to 'make them primaris' in all but name. Though I suspect if GW did it would just spawn a dozen more threads about why the extra cost that comes with it have made marines terrible.

Indeed which is why these 'Improve marines' threads are so fething pointless. Most of the posters are in denial about the Primaris and try their utmost to pretend they do not exist and then go on reinventing them. "Guys, I have an novel idea how to fix marines, what if they had two attacks and two wounds and AP on their bolters!" It is utterly comical. GW is improving marines, these improvements are called Primaris. Like it or not, that's how it is and wishing for any other path is utterly unrealistic.

Follow-up thought: The basic issue with Marines is that they've been chopped in half and given two separate Codexes, one of which has the right statline, the other of which has all the wargear and all the playable vehicles. The likely 'fix' to Marines is smooshing the Primaris half and the normal half back together into one book.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Overpriced thought. Intercessors would have to drop to 15ppm before I'd be willing to seriously consider using them.

And that happening is about seven thousand times more likely than any of these harebrained suggestions in this other similar threads.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

A.T. wrote:

As for marines, all the suggestions seem to just loop back around to 'make them primaris' in all but name. Though I suspect if GW did it would just spawn a dozen more threads about why the extra cost that comes with it have made marines terrible.

Indeed which is why these 'Improve marines' threads are so fething pointless. Most of the posters are in denial about the Primaris and try their utmost to pretend they do not exist and then go on reinventing them. "Guys, I have an novel idea how to fix marines, what if they had two attacks and two wounds and AP on their bolters!" It is utterly comical. GW is improving marines, these improvements are called Primaris. Like it or not, that's how it is and wishing for any other path is utterly unrealistic.

Follow-up thought: The basic issue with Marines is that they've been chopped in half and given two separate Codexes, one of which has the right statline, the other of which has all the wargear and all the playable vehicles. The likely 'fix' to Marines is smooshing the Primaris half and the normal half back together into one book.

That's why this is super annoying. If GW just brought out new marines and didn't give them a whole different data sheet then marines would be fine... Honestly, they could have new marines and have all their problems solved with transport shortage and lack of models... then slowly replaced all the models over time... However, they wanted extra money so made it more complicated for everyone.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:


Marines and necrons don't really match tneir background very well.

Perhaps uniquely among the posters here, I don't have any mechanical suggestions, but I think Marines would work well as the anti-horde factions of the game--after all, in the fiction, they massacre basic infantry even in overwhelming numbers, but start to struggle against bigger stuff.

A.T. wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We call that a "buff". It's what you do when something is underperforming.

At this point the 'buffed' unit has twice the firepower, twice the close combat ability, and three times the toughness of a vanilla marine for a 30% points increase (when the two units are compared directly to one another), and will win by some margin a head on firefight with units such as the undercosted 4pt guardsmen even without having to use their superior range or assault capabilities.

So? Guardsmen are still better screening units and better at generating CP.

A.T. wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you're going to use fluff to justify a decision, then the fluff needs to be applied all around.

Human/astartes scale weapons.

The fluff says sisters bolters are better, and as for scale...power armor.

 Mmmpi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you're going to use fluff to justify a decision, then the fluff needs to be applied all around.

Human/astartes scale weapons.

The fluff says sisters bolters are better, and as for scale...power armor.

Show in the fluff where it says that.

Also I avoided this thread for 5 pages. Which fixes were repeated and which of the same posters are in denial and saying Marines are fine?

Also if there were new ideas I'd like to see them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you're going to use fluff to justify a decision, then the fluff needs to be applied all around.

Human/astartes scale weapons.

The fluff says sisters bolters are better, and as for scale...power armor.

Show in the fluff where it says that.

Also I avoided this thread for 5 pages. Which fixes were repeated and which of the same posters are in denial and saying Marines are fine?

Also if there were new ideas I'd like to see them.

My idea is just give them the vets stat lines and abilities to take any weapon they like or upgrade their bolters to master craft. Drop their points by 2 and the master craft bolters basically become free. Although dev squads woukd vanish but i honestly forgot they even existed untill 10 seconds ago.

Witchhunters Codex, section on the Gowden-Diaz bolter.

Not sure if the rest is addressed at me as I haven't otherwise commented on marine fixes.

 lolman1c wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you're going to use fluff to justify a decision, then the fluff needs to be applied all around.

Human/astartes scale weapons.

The fluff says sisters bolters are better, and as for scale...power armor.

Show in the fluff where it says that.

Also I avoided this thread for 5 pages. Which fixes were repeated and which of the same posters are in denial and saying Marines are fine?

Also if there were new ideas I'd like to see them.

My idea is just give them the vets stat lines and abilities to take any weapon they like or upgrade their bolters to master craft. Drop their points by 2 and the master craft bolters basically become free. Although dev squads woukd vanish but i honestly forgot they even existed untill 10 seconds ago.

Honestly I'm not a fan of just making everyone Vets, because it leaves little granularity. I want it for Chaos Marines (effectively just make Chosen Troops and get rid of the regular profile) as they're, well. VETS OF THE LONG WAR.

Slayer I'm a little confused about your take on the chosen thing.

Basically asking for that is saying that 0 marines turn traitor and no chaos marines die in battle right?

 fraser1191 wrote:
Slayer I'm a little confused about your take on the chosen thing.

Basically asking for that is saying that 0 marines turn traitor and no chaos marines die in battle right?

I know it's a different thread, but basically I think Renegades should've been in the main codex, and it's done by choosing a Chapter Tactic and all that fun stuff, you lose the special characters, and you switch out a bunch of keywords. Then you get a few special units rather than the Chapter's regular special units (I would choose Warp Talons, Possessed, and Spawn).

Does that make sense?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Slayer I'm a little confused about your take on the chosen thing.

Basically asking for that is saying that 0 marines turn traitor and no chaos marines die in battle right?

I know it's a different thread, but basically I think Renegades should've been in the main codex, and it's done by choosing a Chapter Tactic and all that fun stuff, you lose the special characters, and you switch out a bunch of keywords. Then you get a few special units rather than the Chapter's regular special units (I would choose Warp Talons, Possessed, and Spawn).

Does that make sense?

Okay I think I understand where you're coming from.

Delete Primaris. feth 'em. Dumbest fluff I've ever seen in my life.

All marines have +1 wound and attack. All Marines are armed with a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Grenades and a Chainsword. Adjust costs accordingly.

Bolters: Strength 5 and -1 AP.
Bolt Pistols: Pistol 2 and -1 AP
Storm Bolters: strength 5 Assault 3, -1 AP
Heavy Bolter: Strength 6, Heavy 3, -2 AP, *Each hit generates 2 hits against Infantry
Chainswords: +1 Strength, +1 attack, -1 AP


Combat Squads:

At any point in the game, this unit containing a maximum number of models can split into two units each containing an equal number of models. They then have the following abilities. Note, only one of these abilities may be used per turn.

-Fire Support: One Combat Squad may fire overwatch at normal ballistic skill at an enemy unit charging the other Combat squad during the assault phase.

-Firing Coordination: One Combat Squad may forgo its shooting phase to coordinate a strike against an enemy target using their auspex. If it does this, the other Combat Squad adds +1 to their BS for the remainder of the shooting phase.

-Suppressing Fire: One Combat Squad may choose to shoot an enemy unit using suppressing fire, if they do this they cannot charge in the assault phase. The other Combat Squad may not shoot in the shooting phase, but may assault after advancing and the enemy target may not fire overwatch. Both Combat Squads must declare a single unit for the purposes of Suppressing Fire.

-Coordinated Advance: One Combat Squad may forego its shooting phase and advance 6 inches instead of rolling, all units targeting this unit in the shooting phase suffer -1 to hit. The other Combat Squad is attempting to provide this unit with cover fire and suffer -1 to their BS for the remainder of the phase.

Drop Pod now deploys on first turn and can carry Centurions and Dreadnoughts again.

New Strategems:

-Teleport Shunt Redeployment: 1CP A unit wearing terminator armour may be removed and redeploy anywhere on the battlefield outside of 9" from any enemy unit. This can't be used if the unit is engaged in combat or within 1" of an enemy unit.

-Tactical Coordination: 1CP A unit may use 2 abilities from its Combat Squad rule for remainder of the turn.

-Death From Above: 3CP A Jump Infantry unit may deploy on the table from reserves within 6" of any enemy unit and may re-roll charge rolls.

-Shock And Awe: 2 CP All units within 12" of a drop pod that has been deployed on this turn suffer -1 to their BS when firing on a unit that deployed from that drop pod. Furthermore, those units also suffer -1 Leadership until the beginning of your next turn.

goddamn do we really need this thread AGAIN?

The older one isn't even dead yet.

Still waiting for the replacement for "NUUUURF THE GURDZ" to pop up.

 SHUPPET wrote:
goddamn do we really need this thread AGAIN?

Yeah I know. Personally that's why I skipped the last 5 pages and just asked if there were any new ideas.

Honestly, I think marines just need a buff to tacticals. I've been reading some comments and the best one I found was to reward marine players for taking an entire tactical squad like they do with boys. (+1 Attack +1 LD)

Heres some ideas:

Decrease special weapon costs for melta and flamer.

Give space marines back their bolter drill ability as a stratagem that works on all space marine units with 'bolt' in their profile.

Unload - Space marines fire two times in a turn but cannot fire the next turn and this ability cannot be used again.

Land Raider- Can disengage from combat and fire into combatants they are engaged with.

Vindicator - Just Remove it.

Hellblasters - 2pts less, 10pts less for all the hellblaster equipment, give them an anti-infantry 'gattling gun' variant. Name changed to Support Unit

Reivers moved to troop choice 3pts less.

Scouts Decrease to 10pts ppm. (Might not be good)

Tactical Squad - Decrease to 12ppm, if you have a full squad of tactical space marines they count as two troop choices when fufilling the requirements of a detachment position, they do not take up an additional troop slot. In addition they gain +1 attack and +1LD. And may use combat squads as normal.

Terminators ignore 1 ap on anything that has less strength than terminator's current toughness.

Apothecaries can take combi-weapons/storm bolters.

Librarians - give them back their gates of infinity, vortex of doom, force dome, and avenger.

Avenger - Assault D6 - Strength 5 Ap -3 D1 - this weapon automatically hits.

Can manifest on a 7

Force Dome

All units nearby within 8" gain a +5 invulnerable save.

Warp charge 7

Vortex of Doom

S 10 Ap -6 Heavy 2 D6 D - ignores all - to hit

Warp Charge of 5

Gates of Infinity
-5th Edition Codex-
Can either travel by himself or take a single unit into the warp into deep strike then deploy 24". But if he travels with a unit increases the chance of an issue, if a double is rolled one member of the unit is automatically removed.

Warp Charge of 8


Centurion / Devastator / Predators / Land Raider / Falchion / Repulsor - Titan Hunters (Strategem 1CP)

When Equipped with a lascannon or lascannon destroyer for every 6 rolled on to hit deals 2 hits instead of the normal 1 hit when the targeting unit is firing upon TITAN and SUPER HEAVY Units.

Tactical Squad / Devastator / Stern Guard / Terminators - Bolter Training (1CP)
May fire an additional time when equipped with any bolt weapons. If this unit excluding Terminators moves this turn they cannot use this strategem and may not fire twice with a bolt weapon.

Vanguard Veterans - Gain Heroic Intervention - If a jump pack is equipped vanguard vets can elect to perform a heroic intervention, they cannot shoot the turn they arrive from deep strike but can assault (provided they are close enough) and gain +1 attack if they make a successful charge.

Sternguard Veterans - Special Ammunition - Check 5th edition codex.....

Terminators - Relentless - Ignores all - to hit on heavy weapons...

Terminators - Ceramite Shell - Ignore 1 ap.

Honor Guard - May equip storm shields....

Chapter Champion - May equip stormshield.... or a powe axe, or a relic blade....

Drop Pod reduced in cost to 40pts.

Techmarine - Forgemaster for an additional 20pts gain +2 BS and 6Ws may equip a conversion beamer in addition to a servo arm and servo harness. may use bolster defenses.

Bolster Defense (Imperial Fists Only Chapter Tactic),

For imperial fists, place three shielded walls or cover improve the save of that terrain by +1.
Select one shield wall to improve the save of that terrain by +1

Raven Guard (Chapter Tactic)
Infiltrate.... (Why wasn't this a thing already?!) All infantry, special characters, and DREADNOUGHTS can infiltrate. In additional all jump pack armed units can immunity to overwatch, they may ignore overwatched units entirely.

Stratagem
Sabatoge - Select an enemy unit that is deployed this game, that unit suffers -1 to hit for the rest of the game. (2cp) (can only be used once!)

Iron Hands (Chapter Tactic)
Iron within - All Infantry models gain +1 to their toughness.

Stratagem -

Binary Diversion - Select a friendly iron hands character and then one of your opponent's vehicle or titan unit that is within 6" that unit cannot fire or make attacks this turn. (2CP)

White Scars (Chapter Tactic)
Swordstorm - On charge, if an infantry, jump pack, or bike unit is within 1" for every model in the squad roll a d6, on a 6+ that unit suffers a mortal wound. All characters hit on 5+.

Stratagem
Masters of the Wind- Select a unit of infantry or bike unit, this unit gains an additional 2" to their movement and their assault and charge for one turn only. (1cp)

Ultramarines (Chapter Tactic)
Progressive Assault - Units that fire at the same unit can call out or mark a single unit (Can only be done once per a turn from all ultramarines for that turn). Any Ultramarines that fire at that marked unit gain +1 to hit with all ULTRAMARINE units and ignore all penalties to hit. 1s will always fail. (Does not work on scouts or servitors)

Stratagem
Tactical Retreat - When an Ultramarine unit is charged, this unit may elect to retreat during your opponent's charge (2cp)

Salamanders (Chapter Tactic)
Masters of the Forge - All flame, thunder hammers, and melta weapons are half cost. Any weapons that are decimal are rounded up.

Stratagem
Holy Flame of Nocturne - Roll an additional D6 when firing with flame weapons from a single unit this turn (2cp)

Black Templar (Chapter Tactic)
SUFFER NOT THE UNCLEAN TO LIVE - On rolls of 6 when on charge or attacking in close combat, gain an additional hit. If this unit has charged this turn gain an additional attack if a charge was successful made by the unit possessing this ability in addition to the attacks generated from Suffer, not the unclean to live!

Stratagem
Sword Brethren - select a unit of veterans they gain +1 attack and +1 to their leadership to their profile to a max of 3(1/2/3 CP)

Notes :
Yes, I know they are OP. Some of them are broken beyond belief, but these would go a long way in making marines more valuable based on chapter, Each has its own unique flavor and it should be shown not hidden. We could fiddle around with each of these and make them less broken... These are only suggestions. I don't think to make marine bolters -1 ap in general will make marines better, they just need better stratagems.

Bolters: Strength 5 and -1 AP.
Bolt Pistols: Pistol 2 and -1 AP
Storm Bolters: strength 5 Assault 3, -1 AP
Heavy Bolter: Strength 6, Heavy 3, -2 AP, *Each hit generates 2 hits against Infantry
Chainswords: +1 Strength, +1 attack, -1 AP

No these are a bit too powerful. I would keep bolters at the original strength, even giving them a better AP might be dubious

Bolt pistol 2? No

Storm bolters becoming assault again? I sorta agree, but Assault 3 Range 24" S4 sounds a bit more right.
Heavy Bolters S5 36" AP -1
Chainsword is fine as is. Maybe certain versions like the grinder version has a chance to rend? But normal ones shouldn't.

Perhaps uniquely among the posters here, I don't have any mechanical suggestions, but I think Marines would work well as the anti-horde factions of the game--after all, in the fiction, they massacre basic infantry even in overwhelming numbers, but start to struggle against bigger stuff.

Ehhh not really. Marines have always had good anti-horde clear, until this edition. Marines also had some good titan killing equipment the problem is that it is too expensive now. Or marines have no adequate way to increase their firepower like guard can. Each unit they lose is a tremendous lose. A single full tactical squad is around 150 - 160. Devastators are your main backline as predators are anti-vehicle is all but useless now.

Follow-up thought: The basic issue with Marines is that they've been chopped in half and given two separate Codexes, one of which has the right statline, the other of which has all the wargear and all the playable vehicles. The likely 'fix' to Marines is smooshing the Primaris half and the normal half back together into one book.

Ample Suggestion, honestly. Primaris are bad because they have no options, regular marines are bad because they just die and are overly expensive or lack abilities to make them more versatile