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blaktoof wrote:
So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.

You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what is being said is that Unit A is given State A at the start of the game, is changed to State B later, but then still uses rules that trigger off it HAVING HAD State A AT ANY POINT.

blaktoof wrote:
So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.

No, the rules are saying they are set up before and they are set up after playing the stratagem.

blaktoof wrote:
You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.

No, you are saying that somehow they mystically time travel so that they were never set up. During deployment they are set up in ambush. During turn one, after deployment, they are set up somewhere else after playing the stratagem. They were still set up in ambush during deployment and according to the FAQ that means they are on the board for purposes of Tactical Reserves, which means that they can do things turn one.

blaktoof wrote:
You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.

Makes no sense.

Way to strawman the argument. The situations aren't similar. You still haven't bothered actually citing any proof to corroborate what you're saying, despite having been asked. Perhaps you could try to argue in good faith and provide some proof to back up your assertions.

 Octopoid wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.

You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what is being said is that Unit A is given State A at the start of the game, is changed to State B later, but then still uses rules that trigger off it HAVING HAD State A AT ANY POINT.

Oh I get that interpretation,

And it is the same as saying an unit that advances and later in the shooting phase has a stratagem played on it that let's it shoot as if it were stationary is played, and someone then says it has to shoot as if it advanced because it had that state first and it being modified doesn't remove that.

The whole point of modifying that state removes the previous state at that point, you can't resolve the shooting attack as if the unit advanced and did not advance.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.

No, the rules are saying they are set up before and they are set up after playing the stratagem.

blaktoof wrote:
You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.

No, you are saying that somehow they mystically time travel so that they were never set up. During deployment they are set up in ambush. During turn one, after deployment, they are set up somewhere else after playing the stratagem. They were still set up in ambush during deployment and according to the FAQ that means they are on the board for purposes of Tactical Reserves, which means that they can do things turn one.

blaktoof wrote:
You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.

Makes no sense.

Way to strawman the argument. The situations aren't similar. You still haven't bothered actually citing any proof to corroborate what you're saying, despite having been asked. Perhaps you could try to argue in good faith and provide some proof to back up your assertions.

Same situation, you just dislike the analogy. A strawman would be saying setup doesn't have any rules context in deployment because it exists as a word used to put things in context for embarking.

I've already cited proof for about 4 pages.

The unit is no longer setup in ambush and is instead setup underground.

Setup is the wording used for where units are placed during deployment under tactical reserves. This stratagem changes where the unit was deployed to. As such when it is used the unit was never in ambush after using it for the purpose of resolving it's rules.

How was it 'never in ambush'? It was deployed in ambush at the start of the game. You do know that the Blip is only revealed at the start of the GSC movement/end of enemy movement phase? Whole reams of stuff can happen in that time, influenced by the Ambush Blip. An ambush Blip, which according to your logic, never existed.

There is nothing in the strat that says the unit was never in ambush. It spells out a series of cause and effects starting with the Blip that is to be revealed, because, and I want to stress this, it is deployed in ambush.

The strat says you take this Blip, physically deployed at the beginning of the game, and now, instead of it being in ambush, it is underground. It no longer holds its original state but there is a specific rule that says if it ever at any stage held that state then it is allowed certain actions.

Would you allow people to take back moves influenced by the presence of the phantom Blip? To move scouts up closer to your lines because the 'Blip that never was' was preventing their scout moves?

Once you play the stratagem it no longer was setup in ambush and is instead setup underground.

That's how we know, the rules tell us.

Notice how the rule doesn't state they can be immediately deployed from underground when using they came below or held for future turns. There is no actual permission in the rule to do so.

Tactical reserves doesn't say if it ever had the state of being deployed to the table during deployment and it changed, nor anything like that.

It further doesn't say all units deployed to the table can arrive turn 1. It says units not deployed to the table turn one to arrive later as reinforcement s cannot arrive turn 1. TCFB changes their state of deployment from on table to reserves by putting them underground, underground a rule that is used for units that arrive mid game.

Theres no actual rule in tactical reserves that says units which are arriving mid game can arrive turn 1. That permission would need to be included in TCFB if it was intended.

Likely this is why the community 40000 page posted that it is used to arrive in later turns.

This is clearly not going anywhere, at this point, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it.

As usual, if in doubt, talk to your opponent about it before the game.