Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Thepatriarch wrote:
Cult ambush used to be exempt from the tactical reserve rules. GSC being better at infiltration/deepstriking made perfect sense considering the lore/fluff. Giving GSC 3 units to deepstrike in turn 1 for 1 CP makes much more sense then Necrons/Orcs being able to deepstrike in turn 1 when GSC can't, and is actually a good balance between being able to deepstrike half your army in T1, or no units at all.

Sure. It's perfectly justifiable from a background view.

Just the roundabout way we arrived at this point IMO makes me think we might not have heard the last of it.

The original RAW wording of, pre-FAQ, of the blips truly meant they actually were all Tactical Reserves (as the wording in the Codex is 'instead of deploying on the battlefield') and everything under blips was, hardcore RAW, destroyed in matched play turn 1 if you used the beta rules for tactical reserves (making it abundantly clear, if GW previews weren't enough, that this wasn't the intend).

Now they FAQed the blips to work as (presumably) intended, while 'underground' being presumably intended to be the 'normal deepstrike', with this stratagem straddling the two variants of Cult Ambush being extraordinarily powerful because if it.

If a 1st turn deepstrike was the intention, I would've guessed they'd have phrased the stratagem very differently from the start and maybe made it more expensive, so I think we might not've seen the last of it, especially if/when/how the tactical reserves rules and restrictions for matched play (which are all still beta rules btw) get a final version at some point (March?).

While it might be true that the current raw was not intensional, it might also be true that it is intensional. Other factions can pull of similar things with da jump as an example. GSC are the masters of ambush in the fluff, it wouod not be unreasonable that GW intended for them to have first turn ambushes.

What is obserd is the codex is already 2 weeks old, and now we have to wait until march to find out? How long are the rules supoosed to be in a quartane? Just play with it raw until then.

Don't be so sure. It took GW 1 whole day to revise the Vigilus FAQ Document. They may see this oversight and correct it immediately.

Or not. Time will tell.

 Niiai wrote:
What is obserd is the codex is already 2 weeks old, and now we have to wait until march to find out?

I love this; it's so GW. =)

Though to be fair, March is this Friday...not that I expect the 1st Big 2019 FAQ until nearly the last minute of the 31st of March...or that GW will have enough time to sift through the GSC data to properly correct the two-day old GSC FAQ for the two-week old GSC Codex...

Not sure why everyone is expecting a March FAQ, they told us last year to expect it in April instead.

LOL! even better!

 ikeulhu wrote:
Not sure why everyone is expecting a March FAQ, they told us last year to expect it in April instead.

If it’s April they say.. then we better expect it arrive in June.

GW Facebook page has said there is no interaction with this and tactical reserves, and this is used to put units I to reserves to come out turn 2 or later in matched play.


Yeah yeah fb isn't official, but the blurb about day jump being used turn 1 was in their fb..

Basically the unit was never there if they were in reserves from they came from below, or you run into the whole they were there but you are putting them into reserves and you cant enter and leave reserves in the same turn.

Ignoring the step where they go underground (reserves) to try and Ace them is ignoring that you put them into reserves that same turn.

I wouldn't be so sure the FB team knows exactly what they are talking about:

Screen grab of the Beta rules:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/attachment/download/2636

You need to be registered to see that so no help.

But like it or not FB posts contain these days also official rule clarifications.

Best thing to do is not to invest hard money on assumption that T1 DS is legal if that money is basically lost if it turns out not. Use it if you want but be mindful it could very well turn out "nope sorry that was not intention" and have it removed basically any day. Thus spending money that would be lost in that case is not smart idea. Of course if that money spent is useful anyway fair enough.

tneva82 wrote:
You need to be registered to see that so no help.

Doh!

Here:

▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You need to be registered to see that so no help.

Doh!

Here:

Since blips are considered deployed, that allows the first turn deep strike, right?

The issue is they came from below states that instead of being in ambush they are now considered to be underground.

The player also has to do this prior to revealing any ambush blips.

This leads to two possible interpretations.

1. When the unit is now considered to be underground replaces entirely that it was in ambush, so it doesn't count as having been on the table during deployment.

2. Considered now underground means it was in ambush and also is now underground. In effect it was deployed to the table during deployment and the change of that status is from the unit entering reserves when they came from below.

Couple of issues with picking 2, that you have to do this before revealing any bush markers heavily implies the intention that 1 is true, i.e. the unit counts as having been always underground. If the stratagem is letting the unit entering reserves from being deployed it wouldn't matter if they played this before any ambush blips are revealed.

Second issue, with picking 2 as the interpretation, no abilities you enter & exit or exit & enter reserves in the same turn. None. They came from below does not include specific permission to do so either.

Bonus second issue, GW community page has already stated the ability let's you put units into reserves for future turns in matched play

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is they came from below states that instead of being in ambush they are now considered to be underground.

The player also has to do this prior to revealing any ambush blips.

This leads to two possible interpretations.

1. When the unit is now considered to be underground replaces entirely that it was in ambush, so it doesn't count as having been on the table during deployment.

2. Considered now underground means it was in ambush and also is now underground. In effect it was deployed to the table during deployment and the change of that status is from the unit entering reserves when they came from below.

Couple of issues with picking 2, that you have to do this before revealing any bush markers heavily implies the intention that 1 is true, i.e. the unit counts as having been always underground. If the stratagem is letting the unit entering reserves from being deployed it wouldn't matter if they played this before any ambush blips are revealed.

Second issue, with picking 2 as the interpretation, no abilities you enter & exit or exit & enter reserves in the same turn. None. They came from below does not include specific permission to do so either.

Bonus second issue, GW community page has already stated the ability let's you put units into reserves for future turns in matched play

But.... The FAQ explicitly states that blips are considered deployed units and it's only at the start of the movement phase that those blips are revealed, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's first movement phase.

You mean like the tokens as deployment are a very unique mechanism to begin with? I fail to see your point.

I also think whoever answered the FB question didn't think of the fact that Cult Ambush started as an exception to the the rule. I can agree being able to T1 DS half your army was to much, I think deepstriking 3 units in turn 1 is a reasonable inbetween solution and that not allowing GSC to DS in turn 1 while other still can is ignoring the theme of the army/silly.

Thepatriarch wrote:
You mean like the tokens as deployment are a very unique mechanism to begin with? I fail to see your point.

I also think whoever answered the FB question didn't think of the fact that Cult Ambush started as an exception to the the rule. I can agree being able to T1 DS half your army was to much, I think deepstriking 3 units in turn 1 is a reasonable inbetween solution and that not allowing GSC to DS in turn 1 while other still can is ignoring the theme of the army/silly.

I completely agree. I think people are trying to punch a hole in what is a pretty watertight rule. And falling back on 'intent' even after an FAQ has doubled down on it, is scrambling a bit.

But saying it let's you t1 DS is falling back on intent that they came from below being considered to have been underground instead of ambush is intending the unit was considered to be in ambush then went underground, which is not what the rule says.

No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

Thepatriarch wrote:
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .

Makes sense huh?

No your sentence actually doesn't make any sense to me at all, could you try and write it again in somewhat understandable English? Perhaps even add the text you think I am ignoring, that would also be helpful.

blaktoof wrote:

Thepatriarch wrote:
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .

Makes sense huh?

What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?

Quote from a different forum:

Westeros Major in Sweden and Adam from TFG has also stated T1 DS is allowed and that's how he will rule it until it is updated. He is part of the ITC creators and one of the bigger LVO judge's so many will follow his lead.

Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.

Banville wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Thepatriarch wrote:
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .

Makes sense huh?

What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?

Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?

A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.

blaktoof wrote:

Banville wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Thepatriarch wrote:
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .

Makes sense huh?

What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?

Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?

A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.

Ah, you see, that was a really badly phrased question. We're not talking about Turn 1 reserves. We're talking about redeploying a unit that has already been deployed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And allowing it to 'pop up' 9" away. In fact the answer doesn't make any real sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The specific example of blips needs to be queried. It seems the person responding wasn't even thinking of them.

What I mean is, the very specific scenario needs to be put to them because I'm not certain the person is familiar with the mechanics of how it's being played out.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.

The problem is the stratagem itself. It tells us the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush. In order to use the erratta that ambush units are considered on the table you would have to ignore rules from the stratagem.

blaktoof wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.

The problem is the stratagem itself. It tells us the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush. In order to use the erratta that ambush units are considered on the table you would have to ignore rules from the stratagem.

I honestly don't get what you're saying. Being in ambush means being on the table. Being placed underground subsequently doesn't alter that. As long as you're on the table at the start, you can then deepstrike Turn 1, which you are because of Cult Ambush.

Am I missing something?

You are correct.

Being In ambush is being deployed.

Being underground is being in reserves.

Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.

Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.

The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below

Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.

blaktoof wrote:

Banville wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Thepatriarch wrote:
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.

Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?

I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .

Makes sense huh?

What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?

Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?

A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.

That answer made it sound like turn one deep strike is not allow... this just said “but it will allow you to put more units into reserves”
This.... the Blips is just undeployment....

blaktoof wrote:
You are correct.

Being In ambush is being deployed.

Being underground is being in reserves.

Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.

Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.

The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below

Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.

So, as has been said ad nauseum, it's effectively Da Jump on 3 units for 1 CP.

You're mistaken in arguing that a unit can't turn up Turn 1 after being place in reserves earlier in Turn 1.

I think there used to be 'ongoing reserves' in a previous edition. There's nothing like that now.