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 Grimtuff wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Reemule wrote:When someone tells you they don’t want to play WYSIWYG, you should be suspicious of them. Chances are they are not at the table for a fun rewarding competitive game, but to screw someone over, with chicanery or other subversive techniques. As the self help books say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. When someone doesn’t play WYSIWYG, they are showing they are bad gamers, and morally suspect. Believe them.

What absolute twaddle.

IME he's speaking the truth. I'm instantly suspicious of someone who isn't a close friend who wants to proxy, as in almost every case it has been used for shenanigans.

So what's suspicious about my Volkite Culverins being Grav Cannons? Explain.

Yeah, "I don't have the right models available to run the list I want and have it fully WYSIYWG" is definitely suspicious behavior. Definitely a plot to screw you over by having more plasma guns than they "should" have based on their model collection.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Reemule wrote:When someone tells you they don’t want to play WYSIWYG, you should be suspicious of them. Chances are they are not at the table for a fun rewarding competitive game, but to screw someone over, with chicanery or other subversive techniques. As the self help books say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. When someone doesn’t play WYSIWYG, they are showing they are bad gamers, and morally suspect. Believe them.

What absolute twaddle.

IME he's speaking the truth. I'm instantly suspicious of someone who isn't a close friend who wants to proxy, as in almost every case it has been used for shenanigans.

So what's suspicious about my Volkite Culverins being Grav Cannons? Explain.

That's counts-as, which I already covered in an earlier post. A completely different kettle of fish there.

 Grimtuff wrote:
That's counts-as, which I already covered in an earlier post. A completely different kettle of fish there.

So replace "volkite culverins" with "heavy bolters". The point remains just as true.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Reemule wrote:When someone tells you they don’t want to play WYSIWYG, you should be suspicious of them. Chances are they are not at the table for a fun rewarding competitive game, but to screw someone over, with chicanery or other subversive techniques. As the self help books say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. When someone doesn’t play WYSIWYG, they are showing they are bad gamers, and morally suspect. Believe them.

What absolute twaddle.

IME he's speaking the truth. I'm instantly suspicious of someone who isn't a close friend who wants to proxy, as in almost every case it has been used for shenanigans.

So what's suspicious about my Volkite Culverins being Grav Cannons? Explain.

That's counts-as, which I already covered in an earlier post. A completely different kettle of fish there.

And that kettle of fish is?

Can the Volkites be representing Volkites? If not, what legal option do they evoke?

Bharring wrote:
Can the Volkites be representing Volkites? If not, what legal option do they evoke?

You haven't read the Marine codices in a while I take it.

Volkite is not an option anywhere outside a single option on a Terminator variant, which is a Charger rather than a big weapon.

5-10% proxies is fine, particularly if they are just wanting to try something out. New players with limited collections are also granted additional concessions on this front, as they are both learning to play (and thus benefit more than experienced players from being given the opportunity to try out different units and loadouts) and also have fewer models to experiment with.

I personally try to always run my army fully painted WYSIWYG, but I am not 100% always going to have all the gear perfect due to edition/codex changes. A good example are my Harlequin skyweavers, which are all fully painted with checks and wet blending, etc. I built them with a mix of haywire cannons and shuriken cannons. I often just run them all as haywire though, because that is the best anti-tank setup. When I do this, I just tell my opponent that all my Jetbikes have haywire cannons. I don’t really feel like breaking off all of my weapons and replacing them just to be 100% wysiwyg, and I think most of my opponents understand that. I don’t think most folks can tell the difference between the various underslung cannons anyway.

My guys are WYSIWYG. I list build based on what I have. The only exception being relics/upgrades on characters, though they still have the base weapon.

If anything, that penalises me, because I tend to forget I paid for the upgrade half the time.

Magnets are the answer. I started using them on my DW army so I could field all the terminators with assault cannons (never did) or swap close combat options later on the Vanguard Veterans.

Playing against an army of 'this thing is this other thing' and 'this other thing is actually this other thing' would drive me nuts. I just can't remember all that.

^ This isn't how 99.9% of people play, though.

'These GSC dudes with the three arms all have handflamers, okay?'

'All, of them?'

'Yep. And if you look really closely some of these neophytes have shotguns cos that's what came in the box but they're all armed just with autoguns.'

'Cool.'

And we're good to go.

What happens if an opponent puts down a fully-painted and based army of Anvil Industry figures? Is it okay not to play 40k against them?

I don't care, really. It's a game. Games, at their core, are meant to be fun. It isn't war. It's an approximation of war, granted, but its toys soldiers so we don't actually have to bleed. Bring a stuffed animal and make it nurgle, I'll try to kill it just like ill try to any nurgle thing. It all ends up being numbers in the end anyway. If your imagination isn't good enough to pretend that mop over there isn't Cthulhu, you should not be playing miniatures games. Because that mop over there really is Cthulhu. It will eat your soul if you touch it.

Bharring wrote:
Can the Volkites be representing Volkites? If not, what legal option do they evoke?

This. Though personally I would lean towards plasma, but whatever... FWIW, I have a pair of converted Helwrights with Voidcutters made from spare Volkite bits from a Leviathan, as they were the perfect bits as there was literally nothing else they could be confused with in 40k.

And that right there is the fundamental core of the subtle but important difference between counts-as and proxying. Yes, both are subbing on thing for another but they are different species of it, with the former having more "rules" based around it as it is generally done on a more permanent basis so needs to look consistent (aka "rule of cool") with the feel of the army.

Plonking a load of random stuff down and saying x is y, but x is also z is bad proxying and I've seen plenty of shenanigans with it. Those who take the time to convert a cool counts-as model, whilst they are technically still proxying if you want to split hairs; are less prone to pulling gak like you see with the Coke can Carnifex brigade.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, "I don't have the right models available to run the list I want and have it fully WYSIYWG" is definitely suspicious behavior. Definitely a plot to screw you over by having more plasma guns than they "should" have based on their model collection.

Possibly in a pick-up game, but between friends if you want to try something out (a specific character or loadout) I don't see an issue as long as you're both happy. As I've said, I'm fully painted and WYSIWYG, but on Thursday I tried out a proxy for a Vindicare Assassin and my opponent was totally happy with that.

 Lance845 wrote:
How are any of you strict wysiwyg players modeling your relics? Do you have multiple versions of your warlords or whatever to show different relics them?

How is it wysiwyg if relics as wargear are not represented?

Magnets.

Foot captain with the Teeth of Terra:


Shield Eternal:

Where my TH/LC jump captain from previous editions upgrades to 8th.

WYSIWYG generally carries extra meaning for me.

If someone says "are you okay with models not being full WYSIWYG" I would interpret that to mean maybe a Dark Lance acting as a Disintigrator, or Power Axe acting as a Thunder Hammer. Definitely NOT something like "this coke can is a drop pod."

So I am generally okay with my opponents not being full WYSIWYG, but that has the implied meaning.

 Marmatag wrote:
WYSIWYG generally carries extra meaning for me.

If someone says "are you okay with models not being full WYSIWYG" I would interpret that to mean maybe a Dark Lance acting as a Disintigrator, or Power Axe acting as a Thunder Hammer. Definitely NOT something like "this coke can is a drop pod."

So I am generally okay with my opponents not being full WYSIWYG, but that has the implied meaning.

This is pretty much where I’m at too.

I'm a big fan of things being WYSIWYG in terms of the models and armaments. However rule sets are interchangeable imo, I have a Crimson fist army which is fully painted and WYSIWYG but I use the Deathwatch codex. All the models are correct the weapons are correct etc and fully painted but they are just painted as Crimson fists and not Deathwatch.

Same as my iron warriors, they are WYSIWYG totally and painted to a good standard but I field them with black legion rules as they are better and I can take abbadon.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
How are any of you strict wysiwyg players modeling your relics? Do you have multiple versions of your warlords or whatever to show different relics them?

How is it wysiwyg if relics as wargear are not represented?

Magnets.

Foot captain with the Teeth of Terra:


Shield Eternal:

Where my TH/LC jump captain from previous editions upgrades to 8th.

The point of the question is the bits dont exist. You cant claim "magnets" for things that dont exist. Tyranid hive tyrants dont even have a real bit for regular monstrous rending claws. They sure as gak dont have one for the maw claws. You cant expect people to do that kind of conversion work to meet a standard that isnt a rule and doesnt actually exist. And if its not 100% wysiwyg then wysiwyg just doesnt matter that much.

 Lance845 wrote:

The point of the question is the bits dont exist. You cant claim "magnets" for things that dont exist. Tyranid hive tyrants dont even have a real bit for regular monstrous rending claws. They sure as gak dont have one for the maw claws. You cant expect people to do that kind of conversion work to meet a standard that isnt a rule and doesnt actually exist. And if its not 100% wysiwyg then wysiwyg just doesnt matter that much.

I can’t speak for other armies, or even other marine players. Just myself. For relics I commonly use (ToT and SE) I found bits that get the point across. Big nasty chainsword and a special stormshield.

100% WYSWYG might never be achievable, especially with relics. But it’s something to strive for when you can.

Fun historical fact. It’s been a while (4th edition maybe?) but I remember some lively WYSWYG arguments about having to model psychic powers for farseers. Something about they way they were selected interacted with having to model wargear. Fun times.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

The point of the question is the bits dont exist. You cant claim "magnets" for things that dont exist. Tyranid hive tyrants dont even have a real bit for regular monstrous rending claws. They sure as gak dont have one for the maw claws. You cant expect people to do that kind of conversion work to meet a standard that isnt a rule and doesnt actually exist. And if its not 100% wysiwyg then wysiwyg just doesnt matter that much.

I can’t speak for other armies, or even other marine players. Just myself. For relics I commonly use (ToT and SE) I found bits that get the point across. Big nasty chainsword and a special stormshield.

100% WYSWYG might never be achievable, especially with relics. But it’s something to strive for when you can.

Fun historical fact. It’s been a while (4th edition maybe?) but I remember some lively WYSWYG arguments about having to model psychic powers for farseers. Something about they way they were selected interacted with having to model wargear. Fun times.

I disagree. Making sure the opponent can tell a special guy from the rest of the unit is all well and good. The guy with more extra bits hanging off him is a fine indicator for that. Or a different colored helmet. (Bonding knives for shas'ui or even just being the only ones with pouches). But making sure the weapons or bits actually match up to rules? No.

The only argument for doing that requires pure wysiwyg to have any effect and pure wysiwyg is not possible. And if you can't do it all the way then you are making special exceptions for all kinds of crap (and not just relics, as I pointed out some bits just don't exist and others don't come in the quantities needed to field them as the rules allow) at which point what is even the point?

 Marmatag wrote:
WYSIWYG generally carries extra meaning for me.

If someone says "are you okay with models not being full WYSIWYG" I would interpret that to mean maybe a Dark Lance acting as a Disintigrator, or Power Axe acting as a Thunder Hammer. Definitely NOT something like "this coke can is a drop pod."

So I am generally okay with my opponents not being full WYSIWYG, but that has the implied meaning.

Yeah thats basically how I see it. Wargear swaps are ok. Even slight unit adjustments are ok (Tyranid Warriors acting as Hive Guard, assuming there are not actual tyranid warriors in the list to get confused by)

 Lance845 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

The point of the question is the bits dont exist. You cant claim "magnets" for things that dont exist. Tyranid hive tyrants dont even have a real bit for regular monstrous rending claws. They sure as gak dont have one for the maw claws. You cant expect people to do that kind of conversion work to meet a standard that isnt a rule and doesnt actually exist. And if its not 100% wysiwyg then wysiwyg just doesnt matter that much.

I can’t speak for other armies, or even other marine players. Just myself. For relics I commonly use (ToT and SE) I found bits that get the point across. Big nasty chainsword and a special stormshield.

100% WYSWYG might never be achievable, especially with relics. But it’s something to strive for when you can.

Fun historical fact. It’s been a while (4th edition maybe?) but I remember some lively WYSWYG arguments about having to model psychic powers for farseers. Something about they way they were selected interacted with having to model wargear. Fun times.

I disagree. Making sure the opponent can tell a special guy from the rest of the unit is all well and good. The guy with more extra bits hanging off him is a fine indicator for that. Or a different colored helmet. (Bonding knives for shas'ui or even just being the only ones with pouches). But making sure the weapons or bits actually match up to rules? No.

The only argument for doing that requires pure wysiwyg to have any effect and pure wysiwyg is not possible. And if you can't do it all the way then you are making special exceptions for all kinds of crap (and not just relics, as I pointed out some bits just don't exist and others don't come in the quantities needed to field them as the rules allow) at which point what is even the point?

I think the Tau are a good example for those "extra bits." IIRC, before 6th Ed, the random assorted funky bits that attach to battlesuit hardpoints never had a defined distinction - any of them could represent any hardpoint feature besides the weapons. How then, do you enforce WYSIWYG across different armies that use these bits to represent different things?

I have a preference to field wysiwyg for myself but ultimately I don't fuss over it. It's just a game.

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, "I don't have the right models available to run the list I want and have it fully WYSIYWG" is definitely suspicious behavior. Definitely a plot to screw you over by having more plasma guns than they "should" have based on their model collection.

Possibly in a pick-up game, but between friends if you want to try something out (a specific character or loadout) I don't see an issue as long as you're both happy. As I've said, I'm fully painted and WYSIWYG, but on Thursday I tried out a proxy for a Vindicare Assassin and my opponent was totally happy with that.

I've gotten to where I'd rather just play a game than put too many caveats on the game and narrow my pool of opponents. In a perfect world you play a tight game with optimized lists against a fun and engaging opponent who has a fully painted WYSIWYG army. In reality, I'd rather have all those other boxes checked before the last one and the last one can really impact the ability of people to come to the table with rest. I do my best to live up to my ideals, but I've had better games as I've relaxed by prejudices when it comes to WYSIWYG.