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 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.

Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.

Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.

So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.

 Togusa wrote:


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Voss wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?

I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.

Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?

Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.

I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.

It isn't a noun, it's an adjective!

It's unfortunate, but sometimes the drive for fame and money can turn the best of people into the worst.

Zero of the harassers (the people actually in the wrong) are doing it for fame or money.
If people in this thread are somehow getting fame and money out of it, I'd love to know how.

There is no patriarchy. but nice attempt to derail the thread into locking territory. As per usual.

Voss wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

People are clearly defending it. It isn't everyone, but it ranges from the passive 'well nothing can be done, so whatever' to the active 'it is the woman's fault for encouraging it.'

Stating out-right that it isn't acceptable, and people should be punished for doing it is, in fact, a step in the right direction. Just one, but saying 'No, you don't get to do this' (or, rather sadly, 'No, you can't drag us back to this') is how things start.

Form where I sit not one person in this thread has defended it. I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that I see all of you are quite opposed to the behavior.

Stating out-right that it isn't acceptable, and people should be punished for doing it is, in fact, a step in the right direction.

It's meaningless.

You cannot punish the majority of these people, because they are anonymous users. For all you know some of them could be members of this forum, and you'd never know it.

The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Victim blaming, slut shaming, what's next on the incel checklist? Arguing that the people sending offensive messages are really "nice guys" and blaming feminism for allowing women to say no to them and forcing them to be desperate creeps?

I do believe we've jumped to 'aggressive self defense' against foreigners who are 'that way' because its 'just reality' and 'deep roots,' so things escalated quite a bit faster than expected.

Togusa wrote:She is the topic of the post is she not?

Unfortunately yes. That would be the root of the issue- the premise that the poor behavior isn't the problem, but the one woman is.

I didn't call her a hoebag, I'm used it as a descriptive term to explain the behavior she goes for in a lot of her videos. Nice try though.

It isn't a noun, it's an adjective!

It's unfortunate, but sometimes the drive for fame and money can turn the best of people into the worst.

Zero of the harassers (the people actually in the wrong) are doing it for fame or money.
If people in this thread are somehow getting fame and money out of it, I'd love to know how.

I think you misunderstand.

Some of the people in the community, such as the girl this thread is about, do it for fame and money. In the process, they contribute to the thing that hurts everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.

Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.

Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.

So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.

No, we are not defending them. How freaking dense are you?

 Horst wrote:
How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.

Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.

First, willingness to buy bath water does not automatically make you toxic. So it doesn't have to affect her money source. You are also making a lot of negative assumptions of her clientele just based on the actions of trolls who may just hate what she is doing.

Second, the way you dismantle a toxic subculture (or any culture) is to challenge it. And for me, I define "toxic" as actively hurting or attempting to hurt other people. If you throw up you hands and say "It's too hard to do something!" that doesn't help make change. And you don't necessary has to complete eradicate it, just make not acceptable.

People challenge things all the time and society change. It just takes work and constant vigilance.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

I'm assuming that you can in fact read English, have read the thread and have at least some basic awareness of your own posts.

Do please correct me if any of these assumptions are incorrect.

Yes, part of the solution is to pursue criminal prosecutions. None of those things are insurmountable, merely reflective of an ignorance of the subject matter. In the long-term, the solution is to stop defending these asshats - which you and others absolutely are doing - by shifting the blame to the victim - which you and others also absolutely are doing - by pretending that this is some innate and preordained state of affairs beyond any kind of rectification, rather than an exercise in male privilege and the domination of the patriarchy.

So, smash the patriarchy. Just, you know, don't attach too much credence to Andrea Dworkin.

Ah, I see. So your not interested in discussing this. Thanks for confirming, have a good day. I will not be responding further, and I will set you to ignore going forward.

Cops don't catch all murderers.

Prosecuting murderers is meaningless.

My grandfather died. My parrot died. My grandfather was a parrot.

I can do logic, me.

Saying 'nothing can be done' _is_ defending it. Passively to be sure, but it certainly isn't going to raise 'the next generation' to be better. It tells them that it's acceptable behavior, and they shouldn't bother either.

Far from calling it out, you've contributed to it.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?

Well, that was a bit direct, but...

Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."

This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Cops don't catch all murderers.

Prosecuting murderers is meaningless.

My grandfather died. My parrot died. My grandfather was a parrot.

I can do logic, me.

Ironically that statement does seem to be indicative of your actual logic.

 Horst wrote:


Ah, I see. So your not interested in discussing this. Thanks for confirming, have a good day. I will not be responding further, and I will set you to ignore going forward.

As with the previous massive cop-out, I wish you luck.

Perhaps someone won't notice I provided exactly what you asked for and you just pretended I didn't.

 Togusa wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?

Well, that was a bit direct, but...

Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."

This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.

I was agreeing with you.

 AdeptSister wrote:

 Horst wrote:
How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.

Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.

First, willingness to buy bath water does not automatically make you toxic. So it doesn't have to affect her money source. You are also making a lot of negative assumptions of her clientele just based on the actions of trolls who may just hate what she is doing.

Second, the way you dismantle a toxic subculture (or any culture) is to challenge it. And for me, I define "toxic" as actively hurting or attempting to hurt other people. If you throw up you hands and say "It's too hard to do something!" that doesn't help make change. And you don't necessary has to complete eradicate it, just make not acceptable.

People challenge things all the time and society change. It just takes work and constant vigilance.

I'd like to propose adding that toxic should be defined as hurting others, and the community as a whole. Individual actions can have far reaching consequences, and if you're stoking the flames by playing to the culture, that will fan the flames beyond what one might have intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it. Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it. What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

Why do that when you can just sit on your 'victim blaming' high horse and straw man those making valid points?

Well, that was a bit direct, but...

Societal issues are hard as hell to solve because they're societal. I remember a teacher in college once working himself into a corner by saying all cultures should 100% be respected, and then having to backtrack after a student mentioned "boy play" culture in the Afghanistan National Military when he realized, "oh gak, okay, maybe not everything cultural is a good thing after-all."

This stuff is complex. We could go into the harassers and start asking why they do what they do and what lead them to their current views and place in life, and that would be a massive can of worms, complex psychology and sociology.

I was agreeing with you.

I know. I was just adding content. The point was to point out that people often resort to victim blaming and straw-manning because these topics are incredibly complex and cannot easily be solved. It's easier to flail than it is to talk about the base issues, because they make us uncomfortable

Togusa wrote:

Really? You're throwing a lot of stones at Delphine, and not at the people degrading her. In fact, the only time I've seen you actually address those commenters directly was in response to me calling you out on it here.

Yet against Delphine? You created a thread about it, using language that paints her actions in a negative aspect, and most of your posts are in opposition to her. What was that about "throwing stones"? Take some responsibility.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that discussing the actions of the streamer in question was me "throwing stones" at her. I thought I was talking about her behavior and how it related to the problem.

It absolutely is. You're passing negative judgement and condemn her actions. That's throwing stones.

What on earth do you define "throwing stones" as?

Let me be clear.

When a girl goes onto twitch.tv to stream a session of her playing Deep Rock Galactic with some friends, and receives unsolicited dick picks, she has been the victim of immature people.

"But maybe she shouldn't have been on Twitch, a site notorious for people making sexually aggressive remarks towards women!"

When a girl goes onto twitch.tv and purposefully uses meme culture, revealing clothing and blatant sexualized movements and speech in order to profit from men who are desperate enough to give her money, she is cultivating the behavior the first girl got, on purpose.

She does not deserve to be sexually degraded. End of.
Do you think that a woman in a club dancing in a certain way, wearing skimpy clothing, is "cultivating behaviour"?

Blame the "men who are desperate enough to give her money". If they "took responsibility", surely it's their fault for giving her money and enabling her streaming? After all, it's not like she's extorting the money from them.

Stop slut-shaming and victim-blaming. Quite simple, really.

I've no interest in buzz words meant to shut down open discussion.

"I'm going to avoid responsibility for my terrible opinions by blaming "buzzwords", because I'm know I'm in the wrong".

So why do you think that it's Delphine's fault for doing things in a "toxic environment", when it's not her making it toxic?

Interesting. Egging on behavior to make money isn't her contributing to the toxic environment?

No. She didn't create the environment, and she isn't handing herself monetary incentives to keep doing it. If you have a problem with her lifestyle, blame the people enabling it.

If you compare her to other twitch streamers, is she more like Pokimane, or Brittany Venti? Bonus points if you can tell me the difference between the two and why that matters.

I have no idea who they are, nor do I care. No twitch streamer deserves to be victim-blamed, or to be sexually degraded. Simple.

But apparently they can, because she should have known better? That's equally ridiculous.

You all really seem to be hung up on this. Calling it like it is, isn't supporting it and saying its okay.

But you're INCREDIBLY fixated on Delphine. Like, you created a topic about HER, not the people throwing money at her. The VAST majority of your posts on this topic (which you created) are focused on HER , not on the people who created the "toxic environment" that you're comparatively quiet about.

Some countries in Africa and the middle east are plagued with sectarian violence, rape and murder. It's not okay, but it is the reality of the situation and cannot be changed by soft language and talk. Deep roots and all.

So what, you're just going to accept it? What about racism in America? Homophobia in Russia? Xenophobia in England? You're just going to accept them too?

Or are you going to take responsibility for the good of other people who are more vulnerable, and speak out against it?

So if you ask for terrible people to stop harassing you, you're just being a victim? And people like you wonder why rape victims don't come forward.

Don't assume what I wonder about please.

Why not? Your comments have been painting a VERY worrying image of you, and you're hardly saying anything to make me think anything else of you.

And, no, asking for people to stop harassing you isn't you being a victim. Going to a place where harassment is common, doing the very behavior that eggs on said harassment in order to make money, and then crying when the harassment then occurs is what happens when someone "plays" being a victim, instead of actually being a victim.

Why are they only "playing" the victim, and not actually the victim? Sounds like you're just ignoring what happens to some people because their lifestyle is immoral according to you.

It is not their fault if the environment they're in is rife with harassment. It is the fault of the people who cause the harassment in that environment.

See the above examples of a normal girl playing games on twitch and a person just walking home from work, as compared to the other two in each case and play spot the difference.

They're exactly the same. Neither person deserves it.

Or maybe people shouldn't just tut and say "oh well, you should have known better" and instead actually get off their high horse and do something about the environment their laziness has caused.

Uh-oh! So I am to blame for bad cultures. L O L.

You're absolutely to blame for the propagation of them, if continue to focus more on blaming the people who "should have known better" by being in those environments, and not the people causing those environments to be toxic.

Sorry, what happened to you accepting responsibility?

We don't blame people for owning a TV if it gets stolen by a thief. But clearly, you think that they should be to blame as well, and should take responsibility for owning at TV.

Clearly, I don't.

"Clearly"? According to your comments, you absolutely think that.

But it's really hard to argue against a personal responsibility narrative and young people especially get mad when they learn how life actually works.

Sorry, what? You think that people should just accept abuse and crime and harassment against them, because "that's just how life works"? Christ.

You know, if you have sex, with no protection and you get a girl pregnant. Well, that was your dumb mistake.

Yes, it was. No-one's saying it wasn't, but this is different from the other examples given, because there was no offender and no victim.

What are you going to do about that, seeing as you're all about people taking responsibility for things?

Personal responsibility.

Yeah, your personal responsibility for not calling out harassers, abusers, and toxic people, and instead blaming the victims of those said incidents.

But, just to be a little nice, I do help. By not being a toxic piece of gak to people, by not sending nude photos to random women online, or looking at celebrity nude leaks or any of the thousands of other gaking things people do in this world. If that's not enough for you, too bad.

That's good. But you're also victim blaming and slut shaming.
I'm just doing my part by calling that out, so you can recognise that behaviour.
If that's too much for you, too bad.

FWIW, SCoC jurisprudence says that in certain circumstances unprotected sex is sexual assault.

R v. Hutchinson, for one.

Horst wrote:How would you go about dismantling a toxic subculture? What you are proposing doesn't sound possible even. The best thing you can hope to do is quarantine it. People aren't going to stop being gakky just because you don't want them to be.

So what, you're just going to accept other people being scum and do literally nothing about it?

Even if you do manage to dismantle it (which I don't think is possible), you get rid of Dephine's money source. Do you honestly think normal, well-adjusted people are going to buy her bath water, or pay to watch her play video games in her underwear? No. Normal, well adjusted men do not do this. So, if you manage to get rid of the toxic subculture, you get rid of her source of income, which means she doesn't participate in the toxic subculture anymore anyway.

I haven't got a problem with that.
Your last sentence, which I imagine you meant as some kind of "sting", tells me you vastly misunderstand my point.

I'm not saying Delphine's work should always exist. I'm saying that blaming her for doing is is wrong, and instead, you should blame the people throwing the money into it.
Delphine needing to get a new job would be a small price to pay for her, and other people, not being sexually harassed, in my eyes.

Togusa wrote:Sarge...you can't change human nature in a day, week, year of century.

No, I can't. But I should take responsibility and do EVERYTHING I can. Not just cop out of it, avoid responsibility, and say "well, it's just human nature, you've just got to get over it" when people are being harassed, abused, and degraded. If you're one of those people who DOES dismiss it by saying "well, what can *I* do about it", you're part of the problem.

Toxic culture does suck, and it's on each person to choose not to be a part of that culture. It is not on me to police the next guy however.

Really? You seem more than happy to act as some moral arbiter on Delphine. You created a thread to "discuss" (read - complain about) her. The vast majority of your posts in this thread are calling her actions immoral, and saying she (and "young people") should take responsibility.
But sure, that's not policing, is it?

For what it's worth, if you see someone harassing someone else because of their gender, their race, or for whatever reason, then it IS your responsibility to police them. If you let them go, and don't report it, call it out, or stand up against it, you are neglecting your responsibilities.

Make a better world, I'm all for it, but don't die on a hill fighting lost causes you cannot change.

And what makes you so sure it can't be changed? People said that about slavery. People said it about LGBT rights. If you lack the ambition to want to help others, that's on you.

Togusa wrote:A. Don't be that person in the first place.
B. When you have your own kids, teach them, raise them and love them.

C. Call it out when you see it, never tolerate it, and stand up against it.

Those first two are great, but without the 3rd, you're not dealing with the current problems, you're tolerating them, and hoping someone else does. That's not good enough.

Horst wrote:Who is defending this sub culture, Ex? You keep saying people are defending it.

Nobody is defending it.

Anyone claiming that "there's nothing we can do about it" or "she should have known better" is defending it. To greater or lesser degrees, perhaps, but yes, they're defending it.

Nobody should receive unwanted sexual messages. The problem is, I don't think there's a way to stop it.

Nonsense.

What exactly is your solution, except to complain about it? Are you suggesting the police track down people who sent unwanted sexual messages and charge them with sexual harassment? What if the messages come from a foreign country? What if people are sending them anonymously, and cannot be tracked down?

Yes, they should be. If they're from a foreign country, it should be treated as the same, and in the same way as other crimes that are committed between two countries. Anonymous barely exists online - if you genuinely think that these harassers cannot be tracked down by justice enforcement agencies working with the platforms they're operating on, then I think you're overestimating their anonymity.

Offer some solutions please, or stop suggesting that everyone is "flailing wildly to defend" these asshats.

That's my solution. Treat it as a crime, and enforce it as such.

Togusa wrote:Saying it happened isn't saying you deserved it.

No, but saying "she should have known better by being in this environment, the environment that we just accept because 'we can't do anything about it' and allow to prosper" IS saying she deserved it.

Voss wrote:Saying 'nothing can be done' _is_ defending it. Passively to be sure, but it certainly isn't going to raise 'the next generation' to be better. It tells them that it's acceptable behavior, and they shouldn't bother either.

Far from calling it out, you've contributed to it.

Exactly. 100% agreed.

 Togusa wrote:
The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.

Nonsense. Calling people out absolutely does something. It informs these people that what they are doing is completely unacceptable and they are not welcome in polite society until they stop being s. Stop defending them, stop making excuses for them, stop blaming other people for their behavior. Shame the pathetic incels and leave them nowhere to hide. If they try to hide behind anonymous online accounts then reveal their identities to the public, to their parents, and to their employers. The only thing silence does is let them believe that their behavior is ok and they can continue to get away with it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
FWIW, SCoC jurisprudence says that in certain circumstances unprotected sex is sexual assault.

R v. Hutchinson, for one.

And? Precedence is not always law, especially if you are talking about foreign countries.
Because you know sovereignity is an principle?

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

nfe wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Well it's the reason I've never gone to any of those countries without a high powered rifle.

I do it all the time. It's fine. And worthwhile.

For clarity, though, every time a foreigner is murdered your first response is 'Take the rough with the smooth'. When pressed, you'll agree that 'oF course, ISIS were in the wrong, but you know what you're setting yourself up for, right?

Every policeman that was murdered by the IRA? Every lone walker murdered at night?

The other person was at fault BUT...

If so, yeesh, but fair enough. If not, why not?

Don't misquote me dude.

I thought it an abundantly clear I'm asking whether you're consistent and not saying you've made thosestatements. If it wasn't clear: I'm asking whether your first reaction to a crime is always that the victims hold responsibility for crimes committed against them because of their chosen employment or places they put themselves.

Wanna answer it?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
The best way to fight it is to not be it and to raise the next generation to be better. "calling it out" isn't going to do a damn thing, and even then, multiple people, myself included have called it out in this thread.

Nonsense. Calling people out absolutely does something. It informs these people that what they are doing is completely unacceptable and they are not welcome in polite society until they stop being s. Stop defending them, stop making excuses for them, stop blaming other people for their behavior. Shame the pathetic incels and leave them nowhere to hide. If they try to hide behind anonymous online accounts then reveal their identities to the public, to their parents, and to their employers. The only thing silence does is let them believe that their behavior is ok and they can continue to get away with it.

Good luck with that. If that's what you want to pursue, go for it.

It absolutely is. You're passing negative judgement and condemn her actions. That's throwing stones.

What on earth do you define "throwing stones" as?

I don't believe her actions are those of a thoughtful and intelligent person. However, I can criticize her actions. And I am.

She does not deserve to be sexually degraded. End of.
Do you think that a woman in a club dancing in a certain way, wearing skimpy clothing, is "cultivating behaviour"?
Blame the "men who are desperate enough to give her money". If they "took responsibility", surely it's their fault for giving her money and enabling her streaming? After all, it's not like she's extorting the money from them.

You all really, really seem to be struggling with this. Not one of us has said she deserves anything that has happened to her. What I have been saying is that she should not be surprised that poking the dog leads to a bite.

Stop worrying about fault and feelings, and start thinking about action and responsibility!

"I'm going to avoid responsibility for my terrible opinions by blaming "buzzwords", because I'm know I'm in the wrong".

K.

No. She didn't create the environment, and she isn't handing herself monetary incentives to keep doing it. If you have a problem with her lifestyle, blame the people enabling it.

She didn't create the culture. She did stumble upon it and realize that if she played into she could make boatloads of money. She made her choices. I blame HER, IF she is upset with her own lifestyle. She CHOSE it. No one has a gun to her head.

I have no idea who they are, nor do I care. No twitch streamer deserves to be victim-blamed, or to be sexually degraded. Simple.

Which is why you are ignorant of the issue. You don't know the difference between a girl who is trying to run a business related to games, and two women who are using their looks and charisma to get money out of miserable witches on the internet by feeding their bad behaviors and treating it like its a joke.

But you're INCREDIBLY fixated on Delphine. Like, you created a topic about HER, not the people throwing money at her. The VAST majority of your posts on this topic (which you created) are focused on HER , not on the people who created the "toxic environment" that you're comparatively quiet about.

top·ic
/ˈtäpik/
noun
a matter dealt with in a text, discourse, or conversation; a subject.

Hmmm? Well to be fair I also mentioned the kids spitting in tea and licking ice cream in the title too...its just that everyone knows that is bad behavior and has no issue with it. It's okay, I knew that would be the case before posting!

So what, you're just going to accept it? What about racism in America? Homophobia in Russia? Xenophobia in England? You're just going to accept them too?
Or are you going to take responsibility for the good of other people who are more vulnerable, and speak out against it?

I have my own issues in life to deal with. I make my decisions in life, I choose how I will treat people. If that's not good enough for you, tough.

Why not? Your comments have been painting a VERY worrying image of you, and you're hardly saying anything to make me think anything else of you

It is worrying that some of us still won't just blindly accept what the powers that be try to cram down our throats isn't it? It's important to get with the majority isn't it?

But! Fortunately I don't rightly care what you or anyone else thinks of me for that matter. If it makes you feel better, keep plugging away at your false concern.

Why are they only "playing" the victim, and not actually the victim? Sounds like you're just ignoring what happens to some people because their lifestyle is immoral according to you.
It is not their fault if the environment they're in is rife with harassment. It is the fault of the people who cause the harassment in that environment.

Hmmm. This is a strange one, are you really trying to suggest that a person might not be fully versed in the risks of doing something and still go an do it anyway. Are we really then questioning why some people might think you reaped what you sewed by doing so? People who cause harassment are not good people, they're not doing good things, they're not behaving like adults and they certainly not acting with intelligence of compassion for their fellow man. People who go to these said people and play along to make money in vast amounts and then cry about the harassment they received come across as a little dishonest. If poking your eye with a needle hurts, and there is no reason for you to do it outside of the excuse that your friend gave you a 20$ for doing it, don't expect a lick of sympathy from me for the pain you now must endure because of your own actions.

They're exactly the same. Neither person deserves it.

Oooh! Look, you figured out that we agree on this point the whole time. Now will you stop trying to spin the alternative narrative? Me thinks not...

You're absolutely to blame for the propagation of them, if continue to focus more on blaming the people who "should have known better" by being in those environments, and not the people causing those environments to be toxic.
Sorry, what happened to you accepting responsibility?

gak! Hang on, let me call Major Matembe and see if I can get him to stop training child soldiers in the DRC. I mean I have that power right?

You do realize that I've been holding BOTH sides accountable this entire time. I have said MULTIPLE times that the men in these communities are witches and should be treated as such. I figured it was implied that being a good person means being a good person and not telling witches that they're fine.

"Clearly"? According to your comments, you absolutely think that.

It sounds like you're the one interpreting incorrectly. Have I become a victim?

Sorry, what? You think that people should just accept abuse and crime and harassment against them, because "that's just how life works"? Christ.

No. I think people should accept that these things exist, and there is a chance they can happen to you.

Yes, it was. No-one's saying it wasn't, but this is different from the other examples given, because there was no offender and no victim.

Hmm, is not the offender the bad decision to not use protection, and the victims the man, the woman and the fetus? Seems pretty easy to define to me.

Yeah, your personal responsibility for not calling out harassers, abusers, and toxic people, and instead blaming the victims of those said incidents.

I'm still gonna pass on that kool-aid. But, hey, if you all want to try it out, let me know how it goes. I'd be happy to live in a world with no war, poverty or racism. Best of luck! As for me, I'm just gonna stay over here and be a good person to my friends, neighbors and family and take care of myself.

That's good. But you're also victim blaming and slut shaming.
I'm just doing my part by calling that out, so you can recognise that behaviour.
If that's too much for you, too bad.

Hmm. How's that working out for ya?

No, I can't. But I should take responsibility and do EVERYTHING I can. Not just cop out of it, avoid responsibility, and say "well, it's just human nature, you've just got to get over it" when people are being harassed, abused, and degraded. If you're one of those people who DOES dismiss it by saying "well, what can *I* do about it", you're part of the problem.

Or, I could be in the understanding that arguing those those people online is fruitless because it is a very different world. But, I guess if I did that I wouldn't be here arguing the point. Quite a sticky wicket!

Really? You seem more than happy to act as some moral arbiter on Delphine. You created a thread to "discuss" (read - complain about) her. The vast majority of your posts in this thread are calling her actions immoral, and saying she (and "young people") should take responsibility.
But sure, that's not policing, is it?

Discussing a thing and sharing an opinion is not "policing." It's just called sharing an opinion. Take it or leave it?

For what it's worth, if you see someone harassing someone else because of their gender, their race, or for whatever reason, then it IS your responsibility to police them.

If I see it in real life, outside of the internet, I would call for help from the police.

If you let them go, and don't report it, call it out, or stand up against it, you are neglecting your responsibilities.

Agree to disagree?

And what makes you so sure it can't be changed? People said that about slavery. People said it about LGBT rights. If you lack the ambition to want to help others, that's on you.

A life time of experience? You will never put an end to these behaviors 100%. I wish you well, but it ain't gonna happen. You may quarantine them someday away where they can't hurt anyone. But you'll never remove these aspects of conciseness from humanity without resorting to truly hainous acts of barbarism, violence and oppression.

Anyone claiming that "there's nothing we can do about it" or "she should have known better" is defending it. To greater or lesser degrees, perhaps, but yes, they're defending it.

Again, I disagree. We can talk about it. These are valid topics, It is unfortunate that discussing them makes you so uncomfortable.

Nonsense.

Tell me exactly how to end it now. Oh, wait, you can't which is why you word dropped a meaningless word as a response to my statement. My friend, do yourself a favor and go study world history. It will help with a lot of these issues you're having.

Yes, they should be. If they're from a foreign country, it should be treated as the same, and in the same way as other crimes that are committed between two countries. Anonymous barely exists online - if you genuinely think that these harassers cannot be tracked down by justice enforcement agencies working with the platforms they're operating on, then I think you're overestimating their anonymity.

The police can't even finish all the cases they have in our own country. I read the other day that Texas has 9 years worth of rape kits that haven't even been examined by a lab tech yet. Due to the crackdowns on illegal immigration, Judges have over 900,000 cases that are still pending. Are you seriously advocating we waste already strained resources on some neckbeard sending a dick pick to a person online?

That's my solution. Treat it as a crime, and enforce it as such.

When you figure out the logistics of the manpower, the money and the resources needed, let me know. I always like a good read. And if you do manage to tackle that issue, I'd like to send you to NASA afterwords so that we can get on to Mars and start colonizing space.

No, but saying "she should have known better by being in this environment, the environment that we just accept because 'we can't do anything about it' and allow to prosper" IS saying she deserved it.

No. It isn't. It's say she put herself in a position that she had a choice to not be in. It's saying that she made this choice of her own accord and should not be surprised when gakky people, act gakky.

We've got quite a pile of alerts from folks on this thread, and from the looks of it we've left the OP pretty far behind (which was a bit questionable to start with!).

So, locking...