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Not Online!!! wrote:

I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.

Tau have the opposite problem. Their model line is fairly modern and mostly plastic with very little resin/metal. Their rules are atrocious and bland, but some units are undercosted so they perform well in a tournament setting. They also have the opposite of the "no model no rules" problem with many wargear options disappearing from 7th to 8th. Vehicles literally have 0 options that aren't a weapon with the SOLE exception being the Stormsurge which has access to the battlesuit wargear options due to randomly being a vehicle instead of a battlesuit. For reference, the even bigger Taunar is still classified as a battlesuit.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.

Tau have the opposite problem. Their model line is fairly modern and mostly plastic with very little resin/metal. Their rules are atrocious and bland, but some units are undercosted so they perform well in a tournament setting. They also have the opposite of the "no model no rules" problem with many wargear options disappearing from 7th to 8th. Vehicles literally have 0 options that aren't a weapon with the SOLE exception being the Stormsurge which has access to the battlesuit wargear options due to randomly being a vehicle instead of a battlesuit. For reference, the even bigger Taunar is still classified as a battlesuit.

Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.

Not Online!!! wrote:

I stated as much.
You don't need rules for half of these, just the fething models.

I disagree - models are easily converted. It's the lack of rules that's the real issue.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.

Tyranids are in the same boat, so that's at least two armies that need rules more than models. The Tyranid model range is great, aside from the lack of a plastic LoW, but the rules are all over the place. You've got one build that works (Swarmlord+Flyrants+Genestealers+Hive Guard+Kraken), and then everything else is strictly inferior, with a host of units (primarily Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Haruspex, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard, and all the FW units besides the Malanthrope) that are heavily overcosted and/or lack any kind of clear role. Throw in a bunch of baffling internal balance issues (Why is a Deathspitter only 1pt more than a Devourer? Why are Monstrous Rending Claws free, but Monstrous Scything Talons an extra 15pts?) and it's kind of a mess.

And Tau haven't always been bland. There was a time when you could have a mechanized army using Devilfish for rapid assault (not talking Fish of Fury shenanigans). Or you could run lots of Crisis Suits and jump-shoot-jump to make hit-and-run attacks. Or you could take a lot of Kroot and have a counter-charge element to catch melee armies by surprise. But the only viable build in 8th is a boring, bland, static gunline (no tanks, no Kroot, and Riptides for days), so that's what people run.

catbarf wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Many, not all Xenos.
But Tau beeing bland isn't something new.

Tyranids are in the same boat, so that's at least two armies that need rules more than models. The Tyranid model range is great, aside from the lack of a plastic LoW, but the rules are all over the place. You've got one build that works (Swarmlord+Flyrants+Genestealers+Hive Guard+Kraken), and then everything else is strictly inferior, with a host of units (primarily Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Haruspex, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard, and all the FW units besides the Malanthrope) that are heavily overcosted and/or lack any kind of clear role. Throw in a bunch of baffling internal balance issues (Why is a Deathspitter only 1pt more than a Devourer? Why are Monstrous Rending Claws free, but Monstrous Scything Talons an extra 15pts?) and it's kind of a mess.

And Tau haven't always been bland. There was a time when you could have a mechanized army using Devilfish for rapid assault (not talking Fish of Fury shenanigans). Or you could run lots of Crisis Suits and jump-shoot-jump to make hit-and-run attacks. Or you could take a lot of Kroot and have a counter-charge element to catch melee armies by surprise. But the only viable build in 8th is a boring, bland, static gunline (no tanks, no Kroot, and Riptides for days), so that's what people run.

*sigh*

Listen, we know other armies suck.

That doesn't mean Chaos doesn't have its own problems. And discussing everything GW has put out for the last 20 years to talk about updates to our Codex is tedious.

Flooding every conversation with OT spam isn't going to build sympathy, it's going to make people wonder why Xenos players feel the need to make everyone constantly aware of their nit picks. Cut it out!

Here's why CSM have it worse: we get all these clever, engaging models coupled with inferior mechanics designed to make us lose. GW has no problem coming up with new Chaos releases that perform modestly on the tabletop before turning around a month later to change the rules in a way that gives Loyalists an overwhelming advantage.

Our new model releases are the ATM card GW uses to balance out the quarterly statements, or a signal to Loyalists that hunting season is just around the corner. Ask yourself what's worse - having hope constantly snatched away or having to live with mediocre, incomplete model lines? Both are bad but one costs more IRL.

This update is a disgrace. We get +1 attack on the charge, Loyalists get that plus chapter tactics for every unit in their army, tanks capable of 40+ AP- shots, board control through infiltration, first turn deep strike, points reductions, extra AP on everything, and a promise of supplements to expand on these over time.

For those of you hoping for a new Codex CSM release - remember Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions? Both came out about 7 months before 8th edition was announced. That's all I could think of when I saw Vigilus Ablaze and C:CSM II. GW has no interest in supplying us with competitive rules, they only care about giving Loyalists something to shoot at. And they do it again, and again, and again.

Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.

But do tell me about your Necron problems. I really want to hear.

Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.

Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?

Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!

GW frequently produces, or at the very least designs, kits 3-5 years ahead of their release in many cases. They're not thrown out on sale because GW has a very strict release schedule. Kits, factions and armies are all timed to fit into the grand scheme of GW's sales. They also balance them against AoS, etc., often shifting focus back and forth to keep both parties interested.

I'd call nonsense on stuff being done since before Dark Vengeance (and if it was done...it's since been scrapped), but several years is pretty common. You can occasionally see this on printed sprues. Some kits released in 2016 and 2017 have 2013 etc. printed on the sprue. Doesn't mean they were actually printed and boxed in 2013 but the die was cut, etc.

GW is very careful about pacing their releases to ensure that profits aren't spiking and dropping - they need to look steady and consistent for shareholders, etc.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.

Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?

Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!

Rumored to be. Primaris were already being worked on prior to 8th. The greater daemons were done for a long time before they came out.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Oh, and I hear stories about what goes on beyond the scenes. GW has had the sprue molds done for new Berzerkers since before Dark Vengeance, the entire range was refreshed by that time and most of it was shelved to buy time to redesign the now-inferior Space Marines. So not only do we get horrible rules, we have to ride at the back of the bus so the Smurfs can get a facelift. Great.

Hold it right there!
They had bloody Berzerkers ready?

Do they also have a propper cultist box ready? Or better yet renegades and heretics and just fething sitting on these things?!?
Why!

Hey now - I was ranting about the useless update, not trying to start a new stupid rumor.

What I heard was from an unreliable source and it's likely I got the details wrong. But it went like this - GW had sprue molds already made for Berzerkers and a 5-man Possessed kit at the time of Dark Vengeance, along with other CSM models. 2 of the Possessed are what we now know as Greater Possessed, everything else was shelved or destroyed.

What I took from the story is that it takes a long time for a release to happen and a lot of things need to go right. Sprue molds are expensive to make and everything else has to be done before that stage - fluff, rules, art, approvals, fit it into a release schedule, etc.

The fact they scrapped them to get time to improve Loyalists is an example of a different problem, that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

 techsoldaten wrote:

The fact they scrapped them to get time to improve Loyalists is an example of a different problem, that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Your theory just doesn't fly, dude.

What army was opposite the primaris range on the launch of 8th? You can piss into the wind, but it won't keep your pants dry.

Eh, Loyalists get the new good stuff. Sky is blue, etc.

I will wait. My last time to wait for new things for CSM. I will await for when we get legion books. I will wait until we get a new character for my Night Lords. I will happily wait for a Night lords book with additional rules. I had already accepted that our recent release was just to update half the model line. Nothing more. nothing less.

So long as it's decent and it's of quality. I think now we have reached the prime of 8th. When the new books come out and they aren't on par with the rest of the external balance, that is when I will judge if i want to stick around for the game or not.

I've been doing this game for 12 years with no breaks. I'm already not playing as much anymore and I look at my models and find no motivation to finish painting them or even bringing them back out.

If my Night Lords can't be even decent in the next release, when it arrives, then I will just leave. I've spent far too long waiting for quality rules to be put on the back burner. Again.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.

I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?

Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.

You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.

Last I knew you used the base sizes that came with the models. If you're going to play tournaments fair enough, but it would be the coldest day in all the hells before I'd rebase all my old marines because GW randomly think they got bigger bases so they can more easily manspread. Not messing up my models, and not spending the hundreds of dollars to get all the 32mm bases I'd need. Someone ever has an issue with my old marines on their bases, we can just not play, that's fine. The random base bloat nonsense is beyond dumb.

" Here at GW, not only do we bloat the rules, and the models, we also love to bloat the bases. Here, bloat is the goat. "

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Plus I hope you bought the new Havoc models with Terminator sized bases - you better not be fielding the classic mins or conversions.

I suspect I've missed a "discussion" here - what's wrong with using older versions of Havocs?

Nothing, unless you play with people that "enforce" base size.

You need to use the most up to date version though.
Which is the T5 5 man squad.

Last I knew you used the base sizes that came with the models. If you're going to play tournaments fair enough, but it would be the coldest day in all the hells before I'd rebase all my old marines because GW randomly think they got bigger bases so they can more easily manspread. Not messing up my models, and not spending the hundreds of dollars to get all the 32mm bases I'd need. Someone ever has an issue with my old marines on their bases, we can just not play, that's fine. The random base bloat nonsense is beyond dumb.

" Here at GW, not only do we bloat the rules, and the models, we also love to bloat the bases. Here, bloat is the goat. "

Bases are not enforced though , only the up to date datasheet.
Also no more 20 man iron warrior havoc squads.