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I think the new FAQ will address some of the issues. I expect we will get legion traits for all things possibly even updated legion traits. Mainly I just don't see them nerfing the Raven Guard trait and not changing it for the rest of the armies that have that. I could be very wrong though and am just holding out. Wouldn't be the first nor last time I was disappointing with GW.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let me make myself clear - I understand and to a degree sympathise with the complaints of you CSM players.
No you don't.
But I'll file your advisement about how I should feel in the appropriate circular container.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/18 21:43:29
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/18 21:51:15
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I think that the emphasis on the competitive scene is, in some ways, unhelpful here. I think that the major issue is that everyone has considerable imaginative investments in their army. We all have ideas of the amazing things our super-human warriors/bugs/fishmen can do, and would like some gameplay representation of that, so that we can see it on the tabletop.
The disappointing thing, is that a lot of the creativity required to represent that is directed towards specific armies. The issue here is not that certain armies get it, but that this effort seems almost to be aggressively absent from other armies. So we know that GW is capable of writing amazing rules in the new C:SM, and yet this effort was completely absent from C:CSM v.2.
Consider, for example, Night Lords. They are supposed to be a truly terrifying force, utilising the most brutal and extreme psychological warfare to break their enemies. And what is the representation of this on the battlefield vs a generic (read: no bonus rules) CSM army? -1 to morale tests; a rule that almost never comes into play, what with MSU, morale mitigation, and the superior tactic of just wiping squads out.
Now, this issue then has knock on effects for competitive, as one reflects imaginative options in gameplay via adding rules. It is rules that differentiates one army from another, particularly within a force that draws on the same units. The more rules something has (particularly if they all take the form of 'perks', rather than limitations, in which the 3.5ed CSM codex), the greater the chance that a given combination will be good. And if everything has 3 rules (like the new C:SM), rather than just 1 (like C:CSM), then the chance that one or two rules is a dud is mitigated by the potential strength of the other.
For example here, the crapitude of the Ward Bearer trait would be mitigated if it had another part to it that was great (like multiple [or shifting] marks, or something), or some other generic CSM rule that worked better with their play style.
This, then, of course, would increase the chance of diversity of competitive options in the codex. Sure, one or two options would always be best, but the chance of a plethora of near-competitive options would increase.
World Eaters: 5780pts
Khorne Daemons: 3450pts
Chaos Knights: 2000pts
Sisters of Battle: 5000pts
Imperial Agents: 410pts
Gloomspite Gitz: 7190pts
Blades of Khorne Daemons: 3810pts
Skaven: 1270pts
Destruction Mercenaries: 470pts
Endless Spells and Incarnates: 1380pts
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
While EC and WE codcies will be awesome, and they definitely need new models, how about we fix the stupid unplayable codices before we introduce new ones?
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
yep, just basically everyone else before them, not just WE and EC. Altough that would be the bare minimum imo.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update. (except maybe GSC but that has more to do with their reentry into 40k with an all new line).
I mean Ghazkull, aspect warriors, phoenix lords, etc have been basically the same age as the now old CSM set, abbadon. The only army that is worse off atm is Sisters and they get a full upodate. And the less we talk about the ork specialists the better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 10:22:35
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I'm expecting sometime in 2020 a massive eldar release. nothing to back this up but if CSMs represent a trend of GW updating aging armies eldar seem the logical next step
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: I'm expecting sometime in 2020 a massive eldar release. nothing to back this up but if CSMs represent a trend of GW updating aging armies eldar seem the logical next step
I hope so.
Whilest especially the eldar sculpts were good for their time, the failcast and pewter is agrivating.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
yep, just basically everyone else before them, not just WE and EC. Altough that would be the bare minimum imo.
DudleyGrim wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marines are going to get a new codex anytime soon, but I am hopeful that Death Guard and Thousand Sons will get theirs eventually. They both could use some rules tweaks and new stratagems.
On the more positive side, if these new Codex Supplements sell well, we could very realistically start seeing some Chaos supplements in the near future. Might even finally get our World Eater and Emperor's Children codexes!
Yeah no gotta disagree.
EC and WE first, then all other legions before ts and DG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote: I think it's very unlikely most factions get a 2.0 codex before the edition rolls in all honesty, based on past experience.
Probably, wouldn't be surprised.
Honestly the Legions are terribly handled. World Eaters have access to Obliterators but Death Guard don't. I mean, wut?
Considering what death guard got and what WEatm have / haven't , i couldn't care less about death guard.
Also the last years were death guard galore.... What with heros, boxsets etc.
Nothing against the fellows but it's time for them to step out of the limelight atleast for Chaos.
Not gonna lie I don't understand your post.
I think he is saying that Death Guard have had a lot since 8th ed dropped, while World Eaters are still a, in the CSM 'dex; and b, using really old Khorne Berserkers.
I think he'd prefer that World Eaters (and/or Emperor's Children) got a similar level of focus before revisiting Death Guard (and/or Thousand Sons).
Which is exactly what Xenos players are saying about Chaos and Imperium releases and updates to their own line/codex.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update. (except maybe GSC but that has more to do with their reentry into 40k with an all new line).
I mean Ghazkull, aspect warriors, phoenix lords, etc have been basically the same age as the now old CSM set, abbadon. The only army that is worse off atm is Sisters and they get a full upodate. And the less we talk about the ork specialists the better.
Well the inconsistencies with the Legions are obnoxious and that needs to change.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Your comment is contradictory because you are arguing that GW love loyalist marines and that model support without rule support is not true support but.... SM units/primaris have had gakky rule for a long long time now. There are primaris units that are totally unusable - Reaver anyone ? - and many are just meh (most HQ are bad and just gives reroll bubbles).
I play both CSM and DA so I kinda understand your points but I don't think SM are the cause of CSM status. It is GW inability to balance out their game, from one codex to another, but also in each codexes, that leads to stupid list building.
Since, you play Chaos you know we've had three editions where we received no codex support at all. Primaris are brand new, Chaos has had units that have been bad through multiple editions. Mutilators anyone? I see no contradiction. But I do agree that GW's inability to balance codices in general is the real problem.
Sersi wrote: How, is Chaos not in a bad place? You just basically admitted that only Flawless Host, Alpha Legion, or Chaos Soup were viable. That's just two out of the seven legions and five renegades chapters. Ten of which as you just said are bad. Compare that to what C:SM are getting none of those factions seem bad, and judging by the two supplements we've seen they're all getting a major boost.
Because turning up on top tables and winning games is enough.
The bulk of chapter tactics are not top tier. Almost every book I can think of has 1, sometimes 2 that are "good" and 90% of competitive lists involving that faction are from that chapter.
You may think all the SM chapters are not bad - and yes, they are clearly superior to Word Bearers. But give it a couple of months, and it will be clear that one or two are superior to all others.
Most player couldn't careless about tournaments, and no its not good enough the place with some list abomination. You misunderstood my point. I never said all the new C:SM tactics are good. I said they are all superior to what CSM currently have. Which is why many CSM players are dissatisfied.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 01:11:10
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
As it happens, Space Wolves have the two oldest sculpts in the range, possibly the three oldest - Ragnar and the original Njal Stormcaller are older than anything in the Eldar line (though I think there was a period when Njal went OOP), with the Rune Priest in Terminator Armour being up there too. Off the top of my head, I think Ragnar and OG Njal are from 1992?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
How many novels have focused on the Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoons. I don't mean a novel where the Ork in question happened to be one or the other, I mean a novel focused in partiuclar around one of the subfactions as important to the identity of the characters in it? Even in the Beast Arises which was a pretty damn Ork focused story we didn't see much of that. Meanwhile the various Legions have been greatly fleshed out, largely thanks to the Horus Heresy books true, but even then the world eaters have featured prominatly in about a half dozen. and they're given less ink then a lot of chapters. fact is, most of the time when Orks show up in stories etc, their affliation isn't even mentioned, it's, beyond their quirks, not considered very relevant
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
How many novels have focused on the Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoons. I don't mean a novel where the Ork in question happened to be one or the other, I mean a novel focused in partiuclar around one of the subfactions as important to the identity of the characters in it? Even in the Beast Arises which was a pretty damn Ork focused story we didn't see much of that. Meanwhile the various Legions have been greatly fleshed out, largely thanks to the Horus Heresy books true, but even then the world eaters have featured prominatly in about a half dozen. and they're given less ink then a lot of chapters. fact is, most of the time when Orks show up in stories etc, their affliation isn't even mentioned, it's, beyond their quirks, not considered very relevant
Have you read the beast arises series? It effectively explains how the different Klans were formed and why. There's a significant amount of detail on this. The writers of that particular fiction chose to have Orks as menacing and frightening foes so there wasn't much characterisation to be honest (as we'd expect, the big, alien bad isn't as scary if we humanise them) but I distinctly remember a few conversations between the Orks and humans in that story that characterised the Orks very well. The diplomats in particular spring to mind.
There is also the recent speed freaks audio book set.
Regardless of your opinion on the matter there is obviously a market for this because players of other factions are crying out for it. It is relevant to those players, myself included, regardless of whether you believe it to be relevant or not.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
Emphasis on used to, they're a discontinued range with no rules. i.e. nothing to mourn in 8th is the harsh reality.
I'm talking about a unit/subfaction with consistent rules and over the counter minis who get price hikes to keep them in line with modern plastics despite being older than some of the gamers in the hobby. Of course if cyboars etc were still available with active rules then you'd be correct and they'd need a face lift alongside all the other old 2nd/3rd ed kits.
It's not bias, it's simply updating the old stuff first and saying because chaos marines got some other kits they deserve to keep using 20 year old minis isn't a good enough reason. Again I'm happy to see other factions with ancient kits get some love first (Orks only have the deffkopta/gazzy from memory?), but don't pretend chaos don't need anything.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol you guys can continue your pity party all you like but let's not pretend you're ignoring the fact that your faction is one of the most dominant competitively, it has the second most up to date codex and gets the second most attention from GW in terms of model support, only beaten by the poster boys themselves.
Every other faction excluding SM has more right to complain.
Que?
That isn't even remotely true, or do you missremember the age of basic CSM kits that only just now got an update?
No man but I'm talking about this edition. The age of basic CSM kits needing an update is now over. GW gave them and more an update for you guys. And what's more - the day the new CSM models were previewed there were a ton of people screaming (and I mean screaming) for new Berserker and Noise Marine kits. Unbelievable.
Eldar need some love the most, but then after that you have to look and realise that khorne beserkers are older than literal full armies ranges. In fact the only range off top of my head with older sculpts than chaos (still) are Eldar, at which point, like it or not, chaos marines go back to bottom of the pile for oldest models.
Makes the World Eaters cries a little more palatable? Likewise emperors children, a force based around a finecast conversion pack supposed to match smaller models who no longer exist.
Again, I iterate that Craftworlds need more love, then I'd love to see some of the older IG/Necron kits get a refresh. Pad harlies out. But in all of that there's no denying world eaters and emperors children are the 40k ranges whipping boys for model support.
Orks have a ton of old models and many if our options were removed from our codex due to lack of model support.
The World Eaters and Emperors Children need love as much as Evil Sunz, Goffs or Badmoonz do. When our klans have their own specific models (as they used to), splatbooks/codexes and rules I will sympathize. Until then I don't see why SM and CSM should be the only factions to have such a focus on their respective inter faction groups. It's yet more, bogus preferential treatment.
Emphasis on used to, they're a discontinued range with no rules. i.e. nothing to mourn in 8th is the harsh reality.
I'm talking about a unit/subfaction with consistent rules and over the counter minis who get price hikes to keep them in line with modern plastics despite being older than some of the gamers in the hobby. Of course if cyboars etc were still available with active rules then you'd be correct and they'd need a face lift alongside all the other old 2nd/3rd ed kits.
It's not bias, it's simply updating the old stuff first and saying because chaos marines got some other kits they deserve to keep using 20 year old minis isn't a good enough reason. Again I'm happy to see other factions with ancient kits get some love first (Orks only have the deffkopta/gazzy from memory?), but don't pretend chaos don't need anything.
I've noticed among some players here a tendancy to immediatly whenever someone says "X could use new Y" to immediatly jump in and say "NO A NEEDS B" as if it's some sort of, I dunno zero sum game. I'm thrilled to see any faction get new models. even if they're not my thing, I'm glad someone's excited
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
It is a zero sum game though, well not excactly but you get my point. GW has limited Ressorces for New stuff and rule stuff. GW will focus their ressources on the things that sell.
This leads to a lot of Xeno races beeing stuck with conscriptable age models. Of course even then there's the case of favourites beeing played. And if you get a whole faction revamp or reintroduction you get more ressources used on that army then the rest.
Then there is the case of GW just refusing to update modellines without rule updates aswell. If GW would stop that and actually release units like plastic Aspects etc. unit by unit the wait for updates would shorten. However GW makes more money if they artificially scarce the market up by waiting for "big" releases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 08:58:50
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: It is a zero sum game though, well not excactly but you get my point.
GW has limited Ressorces for New stuff and rule stuff.
GW will focus their ressources on the things that sell.
This leads to a lot of Xeno races beeing stuck with conscriptable age models.
Of course even then there's the case of favourites beeing played.
And if you get a whole faction revamp or reintroduction you get more ressources used on that army then the rest.
Then there is the case of GW just refusing to update modellines without rule updates aswell. If GW would stop that and actually release units like plastic Aspects etc. unit by unit the wait for updates would shorten.
However GW makes more money if they artificially scarce the market up by waiting for "big" releases.
There is some truth in this certainly, I seem to recall they both allow some design of random stuff and see what fits for a codex but often the sculpts are made to match a unit concept before precise rules are written. They did an article on it a few years ago, but they don't have a way of controlling content or release order from the sculptors side sadly which is probably why they are tied to rules releases.
I think the aspect warriors are on hold for now due to the Eldar range being "moved forwards" in the time line as a guess. I'd not be shocked if aspect warriors get re-imagined totally into new units.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
I think Dark Eldar need more than just a few updated models. In fact, last time that happened, we got an updated model that was vastly inferior to the old model it was supposed to replace.
What's more, here's a rough list of units that have been completely removed from the DE codex due to a lack of models:
- Archon with Skyboard
- Archon with Jetbike
- Dracon (in spite of actually having a model)
- Dracon with Skyboard
- Dracon with Jetbike
- Haemonculus with Skyboard
- Haemonculus with Jetbike
- Haemonculus Ancient (or the lesser Haemonculus if the current one is supposed to be the ancient), in spite of there being at least 3 different Haemonculus models
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Kheradruakh the Decapitator
- Lady Malys
- Asdrubael Vect
- Vect's Dais of Destruction
- Harlequin Troupe (into their own codex but they're still a loss for ours)
- Trueborn (index only and virtually pointless since they remained overcosted whilst the rest of the codex got cheaper)
- Bloodbrides (index only and entirely pointless as they're now just worse Wyches whilst also being more expensive and not troops)
You'll forgive me if merely updating what few models we have left doesn't really cut it.
I think many Xenos need less off a Rules overhaul and more of a model-line update.
I think Dark Eldar need more than just a few updated models. In fact, last time that happened, we got an updated model that was vastly inferior to the old model it was supposed to replace.
What's more, here's a rough list of units that have been completely removed from the DE codex due to a lack of models:
- Archon with Skyboard
- Archon with Jetbike
- Dracon (in spite of actually having a model)
- Dracon with Skyboard
- Dracon with Jetbike
- Haemonculus with Skyboard
- Haemonculus with Jetbike
- Haemonculus Ancient (or the lesser Haemonculus if the current one is supposed to be the ancient), in spite of there being at least 3 different Haemonculus models
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Kheradruakh the Decapitator
- Lady Malys
- Asdrubael Vect
- Vect's Dais of Destruction
- Harlequin Troupe (into their own codex but they're still a loss for ours)
- Trueborn (index only and virtually pointless since they remained overcosted whilst the rest of the codex got cheaper)
- Bloodbrides (index only and entirely pointless as they're now just worse Wyches whilst also being more expensive and not troops)
You'll forgive me if merely updating what few models we have left doesn't really cut it.
I stated as much.
You don't need rules for half of these, just the fething models.
And of those that need rules that aren't the special charachters, a simple update or faq or ca could fix them, but alas.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
BoomWolf wrote: While EC and WE codcies will be awesome, and they definitely need new models, how about we fix the stupid unplayable codices before we introduce new ones?
EC and WE will probably be the lead ins to a codex like SM. They're perfect targets for new models alongside books.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
