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Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

To me, GW seem to be doing very well and are very unlikely to crash.
They've made several really important positive changes.
1. As noted above, they have made getting into the game much easier with Start Collecting kits which are good value and exist for pretty much every faction. I love these kits, and it is tempting to buy one for every faction just to have the models! They also made the rules available for free online, which is huge. Kids nowadays expect to be able to get stuff like that online for free, in an app if not in PDF form.
2. They modernised the core rules. It is not my cup of tea but it is obvious that it is extremely popular and I cannot remember this volume of positive feedback for any edition of their rules.The release of Indices putting most armies on a roughly level playing field with lists that were designed on the same principles is also a great move that should be done every edition.
3. They are releasing a lot of really cool stuff that veterans wanted for years. Mechanicus, Genestealer Cults, Blackstone Fortress - this is all stuff old farts get excited about. New Sisters too, finally. Who can be unhappy about that?

The net result is recruiting more new players, and drawing back in veterans and giving them something to be excited about. And it has worked - Warmachine got eaten by 40K 8th.

Are there problems? Yeah absolutely. I think the fiction is not as good as it used to be, but I consider that a pretty minor thing and if you are a new fan, you probably do not care at all.
I also think the way they release the rules over the edition is super fragmented and chaotic, and trying to figure out what you need to have to play a "full" game is very annoying. But ultimately I think people who do not like that will just play with indices or whatever extra stuff they buy, it is only hardcore weirdos like me that feel we need to own all the rules to have a complete view of the system. I dislike this chaotic piecemeal approach to design and I think the last improvement I would like to see GW make is really to tighten that up and get a proper release channel for rules material and a coherent way to manage it all, perhaps digitally but honestly I would prefer a physical book. And lastly, messing around with base sizes and scale creep are intensely annoying to me and I think pretty damn inconsiderate of GW when done on a large scale, but I think that is just my own pet peeve.

But if I think back to a few years ago I had zero interest in 40K, was thinking about selling my models. Now I am interested again, looking at stuff I might like to buy, looking at making terrain and getting gaming again with GDF. And if my newbie group really like it, it is probable that we will try 8th edition in some form too. I never thought that would happen, and either way GW is winning, because I am back buying their models. Surely this story is true for lots of jaded veterans?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 07:02:01


   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I certainly hope it doesn’t crash. Its games are one of the cornerstones of my life, and I’d say 80-90% of all the friends I’ve ever had have been meet through the hobby.

Plus it’s one of the few British manufacturing success stories there are so that’s something to be proud of too.
   
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Peregrine wrote:
Backfire wrote:
Nonsense. GW was nearly debtless, had healthy profit and decent cash reserves. It's true there were worrying signs and they had to make changes (most notably killing off WHFB as it existed), but much repeated claims how they were couple of years away from bankcrupcy - and funny how they were always "couple of years away [from collapse]" - were complete fantasy.

GW reports half-years, not quarters.



You'd be surprised how fast a company can go from "debtless and cash reserves" to "gone". See the history of TSR for a very relevant example. GW's profits were pretty small relative to their revenue, which means they weren't very far from those numbers going negative. And their overall trend was definitely downward, with failing sales being temporarily hidden by unsustainable cost cutting and price increases. There's a definite limit on how much you can cover a fall in revenue by closing retail stores to save money before you run out of things you can cut without causing catastrophic long-term damage. And once a game starts to fail it turns into a death spiral where losing players results in more of the remaining players and potential customers having nobody left to play with anymore, followed by those players dropping out and taking away the next wave of losses.

Would it have been a year or two? I don't know, nobody can predict it exactly. But it was definitely an alarming trend and it was quite plausible that GW could have been entering the first stages of the death spiral with another year or two of those trends continuing.
TSR continues to be an interesting case where the person in charge didn't care for the company, and was using it to maximize profits towards a different license because they gained maximium value from it.. TSR is a case where a lot of spite came into play. Learning the history about it is interesting though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/10 09:08:22


 
   
Made in us
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Sumilidon wrote:
So GW has had a few bumper years of success recently with higher sales, popularity and new and interesting products which they have certainly been pushing hard - eg contrast.

At the same time, they have also made the "main" hobby much more expensive, with price rises, re-do of codexes and the general bloat of rules and books they like so much. So much so, that to me it seems they will inevitably crash as the game starts to further enter the realm of "prohibitively expensive".

My best example of this is for children. You want a game to continue as long as GW has - you need to get kids playing it. They then get others, turn into adults and have more disposable income. Realistically however, which kid can afford it these days?

3 Zoanthropes for example - £40. Barely even a squad
Repulser = £50
Primaris Librarian = £22.55

It's little wonder profit went through the roof, but have they made it too expensive for kids (or notably the parents of kids who don't play the game themselves).

If so, how long does it take to crash? Either through a generation problem or 1 major upset down the line that turns people away or has them revisit what they liked about the hobby


They're a luxury purchase. They'll tank when the economy tanks. When the economy is good, they'll do well. WoW is 10 quid a month. 4 months buys you those 3 Zoanthropes, and will last longer. I keep seeing people talking about kids being priced out of the hobby, but they're not. Give them an Army box at Christmas, a few goodies on their birthday, and however parents subsidize their entertainment the rest of the year, and WoW isn't more expensive than other hobbies they could be into.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Breton wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
So GW has had a few bumper years of success recently with higher sales, popularity and new and interesting products which they have certainly been pushing hard - eg contrast.

At the same time, they have also made the "main" hobby much more expensive, with price rises, re-do of codexes and the general bloat of rules and books they like so much. So much so, that to me it seems they will inevitably crash as the game starts to further enter the realm of "prohibitively expensive".

My best example of this is for children. You want a game to continue as long as GW has - you need to get kids playing it. They then get others, turn into adults and have more disposable income. Realistically however, which kid can afford it these days?

3 Zoanthropes for example - £40. Barely even a squad
Repulser = £50
Primaris Librarian = £22.55

It's little wonder profit went through the roof, but have they made it too expensive for kids (or notably the parents of kids who don't play the game themselves).

If so, how long does it take to crash? Either through a generation problem or 1 major upset down the line that turns people away or has them revisit what they liked about the hobby


They're a luxury purchase. They'll tank when the economy tanks. When the economy is good, they'll do well. WoW is 10 quid a month. 4 months buys you those 3 Zoanthropes, and will last longer. I keep seeing people talking about kids being priced out of the hobby, but they're not. Give them an Army box at Christmas, a few goodies on their birthday, and however parents subsidize their entertainment the rest of the year, and WoW isn't more expensive than other hobbies they could be into.


There is also the fact that the average age of the person I play with or see interested in the hobby is definitely around 25-35, not "kids."

As an adult hobby, 40k is not prohibitively expensive to get into. Plenty of other hobbies require multiple hundred dollar, even thousand dollar, buy-ins to start, and a lot of what GW has done recently is trying to lower that bar with the continuous release of discounted bundle boxes. To the point now where I just have to shake my head and laugh when we get a player that thinks they're super cunning by ebaying used models to get started - you can get the baseline kits you need to build most armies at a 35-40% discount with the discount we get from the store we play at, just by buying bundle boxes.
   
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Southampton, UK

the_scotsman wrote:

As an adult hobby, 40k is not prohibitively expensive to get into. Plenty of other hobbies require multiple hundred dollar, even thousand dollar, buy-ins to start, and a lot of what GW has done recently is trying to lower that bar with the continuous release of discounted bundle boxes. To the point now where I just have to shake my head and laugh when we get a player that thinks they're super cunning by ebaying used models to get started - you can get the baseline kits you need to build most armies at a 35-40% discount with the discount we get from the store we play at, just by buying bundle boxes.


Quite. One of my friends (who recently turned 50) scuba dives, goes clay pigeon shooting, has a hobby motorbike and sports car, and has just started learning to fly. I can't afford to get involved with any of them, let alone all of them... 40K in comparison is cheap.
   
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UK

Breton wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
So GW has had a few bumper years of success recently with higher sales, popularity and new and interesting products which they have certainly been pushing hard - eg contrast.

At the same time, they have also made the "main" hobby much more expensive, with price rises, re-do of codexes and the general bloat of rules and books they like so much. So much so, that to me it seems they will inevitably crash as the game starts to further enter the realm of "prohibitively expensive".

My best example of this is for children. You want a game to continue as long as GW has - you need to get kids playing it. They then get others, turn into adults and have more disposable income. Realistically however, which kid can afford it these days?

3 Zoanthropes for example - £40. Barely even a squad
Repulser = £50
Primaris Librarian = £22.55

It's little wonder profit went through the roof, but have they made it too expensive for kids (or notably the parents of kids who don't play the game themselves).

If so, how long does it take to crash? Either through a generation problem or 1 major upset down the line that turns people away or has them revisit what they liked about the hobby


They're a luxury purchase. They'll tank when the economy tanks. When the economy is good, they'll do well. WoW is 10 quid a month. 4 months buys you those 3 Zoanthropes, and will last longer. I keep seeing people talking about kids being priced out of the hobby, but they're not. Give them an Army box at Christmas, a few goodies on their birthday, and however parents subsidize their entertainment the rest of the year, and WoW isn't more expensive than other hobbies they could be into.


On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

As an adult hobby, 40k is not prohibitively expensive to get into. Plenty of other hobbies require multiple hundred dollar, even thousand dollar, buy-ins to start, and a lot of what GW has done recently is trying to lower that bar with the continuous release of discounted bundle boxes. To the point now where I just have to shake my head and laugh when we get a player that thinks they're super cunning by ebaying used models to get started - you can get the baseline kits you need to build most armies at a 35-40% discount with the discount we get from the store we play at, just by buying bundle boxes.


Quite. One of my friends (who recently turned 50) scuba dives, goes clay pigeon shooting, has a hobby motorbike and sports car, and has just started learning to fly. I can't afford to get involved with any of them, let alone all of them... 40K in comparison is cheap.


Even something as simple as photography can cost a few hundred just to get a decent camera (not even a DSLR), memory card and other accessories.

Meanwhile consoles for kids are easily the cost of a 2K army if not more (esp when the console is new); whilst the games are easily a box of models each. Some of the AAA titles are now £60 or more at launch - that's a huge GW model or two boxes of troops.

I will say that some areas GW hasn't improved on in pricing is that in the past there were a lot more blisters which were far more affordable. However we've seen things like zoanthropes go from individual sales to a duel kit trio sale. So I think where GW has lost a bit is in "cheaper" gift style additions to armies. They've tried to make up for it with some of the 6(or so) man troop sprues; however I think the problem is that they don't really "work" in the game itself. A cheap addition that isn't really going to work well on its own for many armies and are not as interesting as a proper box of troops (no alternate parts or weapons etc...)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 12:42:03


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Overread wrote:
Breton wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
So GW has had a few bumper years of success recently with higher sales, popularity and new and interesting products which they have certainly been pushing hard - eg contrast.

At the same time, they have also made the "main" hobby much more expensive, with price rises, re-do of codexes and the general bloat of rules and books they like so much. So much so, that to me it seems they will inevitably crash as the game starts to further enter the realm of "prohibitively expensive".

My best example of this is for children. You want a game to continue as long as GW has - you need to get kids playing it. They then get others, turn into adults and have more disposable income. Realistically however, which kid can afford it these days?

3 Zoanthropes for example - £40. Barely even a squad
Repulser = £50
Primaris Librarian = £22.55

It's little wonder profit went through the roof, but have they made it too expensive for kids (or notably the parents of kids who don't play the game themselves).

If so, how long does it take to crash? Either through a generation problem or 1 major upset down the line that turns people away or has them revisit what they liked about the hobby


They're a luxury purchase. They'll tank when the economy tanks. When the economy is good, they'll do well. WoW is 10 quid a month. 4 months buys you those 3 Zoanthropes, and will last longer. I keep seeing people talking about kids being priced out of the hobby, but they're not. Give them an Army box at Christmas, a few goodies on their birthday, and however parents subsidize their entertainment the rest of the year, and WoW isn't more expensive than other hobbies they could be into.


On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

As an adult hobby, 40k is not prohibitively expensive to get into. Plenty of other hobbies require multiple hundred dollar, even thousand dollar, buy-ins to start, and a lot of what GW has done recently is trying to lower that bar with the continuous release of discounted bundle boxes. To the point now where I just have to shake my head and laugh when we get a player that thinks they're super cunning by ebaying used models to get started - you can get the baseline kits you need to build most armies at a 35-40% discount with the discount we get from the store we play at, just by buying bundle boxes.


Quite. One of my friends (who recently turned 50) scuba dives, goes clay pigeon shooting, has a hobby motorbike and sports car, and has just started learning to fly. I can't afford to get involved with any of them, let alone all of them... 40K in comparison is cheap.


Even something as simple as photography can cost a few hundred just to get a decent camera (not even a DSLR), memory card and other accessories.

Meanwhile consoles for kids are easily the cost of a 2K army if not more (esp when the console is new); whilst the games are easily a box of models each. Some of the AAA titles are now £60 or more at launch - that's a huge GW model or two boxes of troops.

I will say that some areas GW hasn't improved on in pricing is that in the past there were a lot more blisters which were far more affordable. However we've seen things like zoanthropes go from individual sales to a duel kit trio sale. So I think where GW has lost a bit is in "cheaper" gift style additions to armies. They've tried to make up for it with some of the 6(or so) man troop sprues; however I think the problem is that they don't really "work" in the game itself. A cheap addition that isn't really going to work well on its own for many armies and are not as interesting as a proper box of troops (no alternate parts or weapons etc...)


40k can be far more expensive than Console/pc gaming it depends on the 2k army when the last price rises happened and you had these comments all over I priced up one of the armies used in a WD battle report. It was a narrative game using pp so as far as I could tell it was pretty gak gsc list that came to about 1350pts and cost around £780.
So basicly a top of the line console and half a dozen games or a basic gaming pc. If you took it to 2000pts you could have a ps4,xbox 1 and a switch and a couple of games or a high end gaming pc. Best of all with the consoles/pc you have something that retains its value and if you get bored you can sell or trade in and get a reasonable return where a 2000pt army once the boxes are opened you will be lucky to get the cost of the raw plastic back unless your a GD level painter.

So what I am basicly saying is there is no comparison with console gaming that in reality does not make collecting a GW army look horrifically expensive for what you get.

Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
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 Overread wrote:


On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.




At least we can still play Warhammer when the lights go out! Well..during the daytime anyway.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Overread wrote:


On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.




At least we can still play Warhammer when the lights go out! Well..during the daytime anyway.
Flashlights and Candles help the issue at night.
   
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Hamburg

However, I want to remind you that 40k costs your time, it costs your money, it costs your life (wife).

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On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.

I think that this maybe true only in rich countries. When we had a down turn in the 80s, there was no food at stores. I doubt anyone then who wasn't ultra rich party member had the option to do any hobbies. They even run out of alcohol, which is an unimaginable thing to happen.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Sumilidon wrote:
So GW has had a few bumper years of success recently with higher sales, popularity and new and interesting products which they have certainly been pushing hard - eg contrast.

At the same time, they have also made the "main" hobby much more expensive, with price rises, re-do of codexes and the general bloat of rules and books they like so much. So much so, that to me it seems they will inevitably crash as the game starts to further enter the realm of "prohibitively expensive".

My best example of this is for children. You want a game to continue as long as GW has - you need to get kids playing it. They then get others, turn into adults and have more disposable income. Realistically however, which kid can afford it these days?

3 Zoanthropes for example - £40. Barely even a squad
Repulser = £50
Primaris Librarian = £22.55

It's little wonder profit went through the roof, but have they made it too expensive for kids (or notably the parents of kids who don't play the game themselves).

If so, how long does it take to crash? Either through a generation problem or 1 major upset down the line that turns people away or has them revisit what they liked about the hobby


Honestly that post made me laugh. The idea that a child getting into the hobby is going to go into the store and the first thing they buy is a box of Zoanthropes and if they are too expensive the child is lost to the hobby

Start collecting sets are where its at for kids starting out in the hobby. Start collecting sets are well in the gift price bracket for the majority of parents and the bigger box sets are there for bigger gifts for Xmas and the like. The more expensive kits you mention are for filling in the odd gaps in an army, adding a bit of spice etc. It is only adults with more money than sense that think you build a whole army that way.

Does your average 13 year old need every possible book/supplement etc to tweak out that last bit of list efficiency with some obscure and expensive model in their codex? Nope.
   
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I think the question is less how long until GW crashes more how long until they are forced to evolve. Models and books being prohibitively expensive is going to keep younger players and parents away from the game.

I can say at the FLGS there are consistantly tons of kids looking at the game and wanting to play. often i will rlet them run little games with my models against eachother telling them the rules. 9/10 times the parents look interested until the look at the price of models. when i started playing (2002ish) parents would often buy their kids a box of space marines or something (~$20ish). Now they just see the price ($50ish per box) and say maybe they can come back and try later or they cna save thier allowance etc.. Note a lot of those kids from the early 200's still play and have armies but we are getting a lot less new blood in our area.

with 3d printing becomign a thing GW is going to have a hard time with other games and/or people playign thier games with other minis. for the cost of 4 interceptor marine boxes I can buy a resin printer that will churn out tactical squads with the same level of detail as GW models. GW will either become a rules company that also sells some models to people who cannot be bothered to 3d print, or lower prices to lower the incentive to 3d print minis. if I can buy an army for what it costs for a 3d printer and only want one army then... well why bother with the printer.

Worse case thier audience is so varied and big they could probably launch a subscription based rule set via an app and literally just make tons of money on a digital access to codexes and rulebooks for a flat monthly fee.


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I still think they could do their rulebooks for free (especially CA, I mean come on. I gotta spend MORE money for your balance patch?!) and then the 50 dollar pricetag for a "start collection" box won't seem so bad when you ain't gotta spend another 60 bucks or more for books too.
   
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Karol wrote:
On the economy front I've often heard it said that hobbies often do better during economic downturns, comparatively speaking, than some other markets. The justification being that the worse things get the more people look toward escapism and hobbies. I suspect also that when the economy takes a downturn it becomes less attractive to make savings and thus people get more likely to spend rather than save. Of course all this is relative, if the economy tanks enough then everything will suffer without question and a catastrophic collapse can kill off everything except the most essential services and supplies (and even they can come under heavy pressure). So its all relative.

I think that this maybe true only in rich countries. When we had a down turn in the 80s, there was no food at stores. I doubt anyone then who wasn't ultra rich party member had the option to do any hobbies. They even run out of alcohol, which is an unimaginable thing to happen.
To be fair, a downturn in a free market economy isn't going to be the same as a downturn in a centrally planned economy.

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 flandarz wrote:
I still think they could do their rulebooks for free (especially CA, I mean come on. I gotta spend MORE money for your balance patch?!) and then the 50 dollar pricetag for a "start collection" box won't seem so bad when you ain't gotta spend another 60 bucks or more for books too.

It becomes even more expensive these days if you want to play say UM or WS.
You need two codices and two sets of cards, which are in toto 100 bucks.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I still think they could do their rulebooks for free (especially CA, I mean come on. I gotta spend MORE money for your balance patch?!) and then the 50 dollar pricetag for a "start collection" box won't seem so bad when you ain't gotta spend another 60 bucks or more for books too.

It becomes even more expensive these days if you want to play say UM or WS.
You need two codices and two sets of cards, which are in toto 100 bucks.


Does a kid starting out in the hobby need all that? I'm scratching my head why I would need any sets of cards (much less two sets) and I could easily afford them if I wanted to.

I think there is a huge disconnect between what I saw from youngsters entering the hobby (while i was helping a group towards the Schools League) and what people think kids need to be doing on this thread.
   
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Douglasville, GA

I just assume they'll need 1) a start collecting box, 2) the base rules 3) a codex for their army.

I ain't including any soup requirements, cards, paints, glue, extra minis for some variety, or even CA. That right there will easily break a hundred bucks or even two. And we ARE talking kids here. How many kids got a couple hundred bucks burning a hole in their pocket?

Even their parents may not have that kinda spare money to throw at a hobby their kid may not even end up enjoying. As has been stated, 40k is very "front heavy" when it comes to costs, so (as a parent of 5 myself) I'd want to be certain it'd be a hobby that would hold my kids' attention. Especially once you get into assembly and painting, which require a lot of time and patience.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
I just assume they'll need 1) a start collecting box, 2) the base rules 3) a codex for their army.

I ain't including any soup requirements, cards, paints, glue, extra minis for some variety, or even CA. That right there will easily break a hundred bucks or even two. And we ARE talking kids here. How many kids got a couple hundred bucks burning a hole in their pocket?

Even their parents may not have that kinda spare money to throw at a hobby their kid may not even end up enjoying. As has been stated, 40k is very "front heavy" when it comes to costs, so (as a parent of 5 myself) I'd want to be certain it'd be a hobby that would hold my kids' attention. Especially once you get into assembly and painting, which require a lot of time and patience.


PLease remember the FAQ.

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UK

The kids down my local GW don’t seem to have any issue affording it. I think their parents see it as a Saturday morning child minding session. They’re probably happy to leave little Timmy with £25 to buy a squad and spend a few hours putting it together while they bob over to supermarkets or do other shopping.

From what I’ve seen, I doubt many of the kids there are playing big point games, or even at all. I think most of them just like the figures and social aspect of it. It’s always people in their lates teens up who are playing games on the tables. The kids just glue stuff together, slap paint on models, bother the manager to help them, and generally make a mess. That said, there can easily be a dozen kids in there on a Saturday morning, all with models in front of them.

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 flandarz wrote:
I just assume they'll need 1) a start collecting box, 2) the base rules 3) a codex for their army.

I ain't including any soup requirements, cards, paints, glue, extra minis for some variety, or even CA. That right there will easily break a hundred bucks or even two. And we ARE talking kids here. How many kids got a couple hundred bucks burning a hole in their pocket?

Even their parents may not have that kinda spare money to throw at a hobby their kid may not even end up enjoying. As has been stated, 40k is very "front heavy" when it comes to costs, so (as a parent of 5 myself) I'd want to be certain it'd be a hobby that would hold my kids' attention. Especially once you get into assembly and painting, which require a lot of time and patience.


The usual starting point is Know no Fear or Dark Imperium. Split between two kids as often as not.

If they get hooked then a way down the line you may be into a new codex and a new start collecting as they switch to a faction they love more. That is after they have already got play value out of that first kit - and probably started overcoming mum reluctance with a bit of hobby. I have certainly seen reluctant mothers warming to 40K through the whole painting/hobby side and the extent to which the GW stores encourage/support it shows that GW know it too.

It certainly costs money but then anything you are buying your kids for Xmas or birthdays tend to cost money and this is very much in the ballpark for middle-income families in most affluent countries.

Like I said earlier - thinking that buying expensive Zoanthrope boxes along with multiple codexes and all the supplements because each has one rule that might improve your soup army is relevant to kids is well wide of the mark. That is not how kids typically get into the hobby so the cost of that is very nearly irrelevant to whether GW continues to get kids into the hobby.
   
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yea the games as a starting point are good as they give a starting point and often 2 armies. I have seen dark imperium and wake the dead sold for that reason. the included scenarios and data sheets mean they are literally everything you need in a box.

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Douglasville, GA

I didn't include the FAQs/Erratas, because they're free.

I don't know if I'd consider little Timmy's babysitting session as "getting into the hobby", and more than I'd consider successfully making yourself a bowl of cereal "getting into cooking".

Like I said, I'm not saying 40k is prohibitively expensive. I just feel like it'd be far less daunting to the average consumer if GW just offered their rules for free (in PDF form).
   
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 Peregrine wrote:

You'd be surprised how fast a company can go from "debtless and cash reserves" to "gone". See the history of TSR for a very relevant example.


Naturally with terrible leadership you can take anything under. But GW was not doing any of the things which took TSR under in the '90s. TSR was selling tons of stuff, but they were investing so much to make new products that their profits were never really great, as far as I can tell.

 Peregrine wrote:

GW's profits were pretty small relative to their revenue, which means they weren't very far from those numbers going negative.


Financial year 2015-2016, first full year after release of AoS, saw their revenue drop to £118 million. It was their lowest revenue since the LOTR bubble burst decade earlier. That year they posted net profits of 16.86 million pounds. That is profit margin of almost 15%, excellent by any measure.

 Peregrine wrote:

And once a game starts to fail it turns into a death spiral where losing players results in more of the remaining players and potential customers having nobody left to play with anymore, followed by those players dropping out and taking away the next wave of losses.


Of course any company which so greatly relies on one product line (WH40k in case of GW) is always going to be vulnerable. If next iPhone models flops horribly, it is going to be a disaster for Apple.
However historically, spectacular crashes of formerly successful companies have usually been result of banking heavily on growth which failed to materialize, then suddenly finding itself with tons of liabilities and not much in way of liquid assets. That hardly describes what GW has been doing in the last 15 or so years.

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Honestly dont see kids at my flg

its mostly 30 odd year olds that come back after getting a job and dont mind the prices.

though they arent willy nilly buying everything.

whats up with this strange sentiment of wanting GW to fail financially. what good does a mind set like this have?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Honestly dont see kids at my flg

its mostly 30 odd year olds that come back after getting a job and dont mind the prices.

though they arent willy nilly buying everything.

whats up with this strange sentiment of wanting GW to fail financially. what good does a mind set like this have?


feth knows. I’m trying to figure out this attitude too.
   
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San Jose, CA

At my FLGS I see kids all the time and about 50% of them are doing something GW related(AOS,40K & whatever the sos card game is).

When I go to my local GW on a weekend kids probably outnumber adults 2-3:1. almost all of the kids are AOS players & 75% of the adults are 40k so there is a differentiation in whom is playing which system.

At this point GW really would need to screw the pooch in order to be in trouble.

   
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 Desubot wrote:
Honestly dont see kids at my flg

its mostly 30 odd year olds that come back after getting a job and dont mind the prices.

though they arent willy nilly buying everything.

whats up with this strange sentiment of wanting GW to fail financially. what good does a mind set like this have?


I don't want them to fail. I do expect some things to influence them significantly especially the availability and cheapness of 3d printing.

I imagine that things like battlescribe being available has affected book sales. I know several people who own a rule book but no codexes as they only use the app. (personally i like the books to read the fluff and see pretty models)

outside of that there is always the threat that they lose fans as the continue to squat older kits or rather vault them as "legacy models" with rules not recommended for match play. In mot metas not recommended for match play / open play only means nobody will play against it. Personally i find it annoying that a lot of my ork conversions are no longer considered to really be viable unless they are new buggis that they do not match of trukks/ battelwagon counts as.

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 Desubot wrote:
Honestly dont see kids at my flg

its mostly 30 odd year olds that come back after getting a job and dont mind the prices.

though they arent willy nilly buying everything.

whats up with this strange sentiment of wanting GW to fail financially. what good does a mind set like this have?


Some FLGS are great at encouraging the youngsters in, others are terrible at it[1]. The GW stores I have been to are universally pretty good at it and it is *really* obvious that this is a part of the training they give to store managers. I honestly think that a big part of the reason that GW keep their relatively unprofitable store presence - and why GW are still around when supposedly better game companies have come and gone - is their emphasis on getting young people into the hobby in their own stores. That is good for the entire hobby not just for the GW part of it.

[1] That goes double for girl gamers. Really, some FLGS should be ashamed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
I didn't include the FAQs/Erratas, because they're free.

I don't know if I'd consider little Timmy's babysitting session as "getting into the hobby", and more than I'd consider successfully making yourself a bowl of cereal "getting into cooking".



Pretty much every week I see "Look at this first painted model" on the FB page of my local GW store. That right there is hobby and the positive buzz that kid gets from the feedback it is a big part of what makes GW work. I'm sure they are not up to your lofty hobby standards but I am even more sure that they don't care and it doesn't matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 19:21:50


 
   
 
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