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People have been predicting GW's imminent demise due to high prices for at least the last 20 years. While there was a time during Kirby's run in charge where it was actually looking like more of a real possibility, it seems fairly clear that time has passed.

GW have been remarkably good over the years at refocusing what they do to stay on the top of the heap. And while I'm not personally a fan of the direction they're currently taking, it's impossible to deny that it's working for them, and there's no particular reason to assume, based on previous performance, that when it stops working for them they won't find a new direction that works just as well.

At the end of the day, if GW's offerings seem too expensive, you're just not in their target demographic.

 
   
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If 7th didn't totally kill GW then nothing will. GW exist simply because of the way copyright law allows you to monopolize IP. If other companies could make 40k models they would have been run out of business years ago.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/07 21:02:49


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Long story short GW isn't going to crash anytime soon. There isn't a bubble economy inminature gaming, amd thr worst of the compamy's history was under Kirby.

Now things can go south.as they explore new ways of keeping the game updatwd and fresh, but qe're not on track to crash amytime soon.
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
If 7th didn't totally kill GW then nothing will. GW exist simply because of the way copyright law allows you to monopolize IP. If other companies could make 40k models they would have been run out of business years ago.


To be fair you could say that of a lot of companies! Undercutting is quite easy, the real trick has always been providing a long term product and service. Many a firm has started life undercutting only to end up raising its prices to match once they mature; or folding because they were operating in an unsustainable manner.




I think the biggest risk to GW would be major changes in highstreet rents and rates. They are already cripplingly bad and the highstreet further sliding into decay and getting more and more expensive could be a huge issue for them in the future.

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 Overread wrote:

I think the biggest risk to GW would be major changes in highstreet rents and rates. They are already cripplingly bad and the highstreet further sliding into decay and getting more and more expensive could be a huge issue for them in the future.

Given how much of their business has already moved online, that doesn't seem like much of a risk. The only difficulty for them will be in finding ways to grow gaming communities in those areas (the US, mostly) that currently rely heavily on stores for that purpose... Which they've already started working on with the return of tournament support and getting active in the convention scene. I would expect to see a growing focus on encouraging gaming clubs and school gaming groups over the next decade.

 
   
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Karol wrote:
Start Collecting Boxes and 2 army starters ARE the point of entry into the game
:
:cough: well that is kind of a lot of money, specially for a starter. you can get whole game for this. Plus the start collecting stuff is horrible build traps. Who in their right mind needs a termintor HQ, 10 tacticals and a dreadnought or a baal predator. The start collecting may as well be named, units that you will never use, in most cases. The IG one is very good though, even with the comissar inside.

That sounds like a patrol detachment to me. So if you dont have any models you have a legal list and it is battle forged. You gotta start somewhere. If you are buying a SC box for competition uses, I think your doing tournaments wrong.


Peregrine wrote:
 Elfric wrote:
It's unbelievable that there is a group of Warhammer fans that really want Games Workshop to fail.


Because it's what is best for the hobby in the long run. 40k is a strong IP concept with serious problems in management and game design. The best outcome would be for GW to die and for WOTC or FFG to buy the IP, get rid of all of the incompetent employees, and release a much better execution of the concept. Until then we're stuck with rules bloat, IGOUGO, and constant FAQs to fix their lack of proofreading.


That's exactlywhat I want, either one of those companies running GW. MTG is a cancer(opinion) and one of the main reasons there are soooo many 40k players who treat the game like MTG.

GW is doing just fine and the game seems to be working out for a significant # of players. Just not for the incredibly negative anti GW rhetoric spewing individuals.

8th isn't perfect, but it is damn good and only hope that some of the stuff from Apoc (alt activations, d6d12 for wounding, wounds at end of whole turn) and the Cities of Death terrain/cover rules are added to basic rules.

flandarz wrote:Isn't "Space Americans beat up all the filthy Xeno and Chaos" kind of the whole premise of 40k anyway? I'd say if Hollywood pumped out that film, they'd be pretty spot-on.


Pretty much this
   
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Nuremberg

The Imperium is not Space-America. If anything it is space Germany from the Middle Ages. Well, the Holy Roman Empire, anyway. Crossed with communism and nazism for good measure.
The Imperium is far less individualistic than the United States. Maybe Chaos fits you guys better? Hyper individualistic and also kinda religious?

   
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 Peregrine wrote:

Because it's what is best for the hobby in the long run. 40k is a strong IP concept with serious problems in management and game design. The best outcome would be for GW to die and for WOTC or FFG to buy the IP, get rid of all of the incompetent employees, and release a much better execution of the concept. Until then we're stuck with rules bloat, IGOUGO, and constant FAQs to fix their lack of proofreading.


I have to say I do not understand at all this fixation some people have at FFG like they're supposedly so competent. I mean, sure, they release lots of good games, but rules bloat, constant FAQs to fix nonexistent proofreading...yep, sounds like FFG. I mean, seriously, some of the stuff they release is so buggy as practically unplayable out of the box.

IGOUGO is a feature, not a bug.

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What I find interesting is of those who want "GW to die" most then go on to say how they'd like another company/person/team/setup running GW. So what they want isn't for GW to die at all. What they want is for policies, skills and some directions in GW to change. So rather than die they rather just want a change of CEO and key controlling individuals within the company resulting in a shift of skills and policies closer to what they want.

Some others also want GW to weaken in its hold on the market and to open it up to others. So its not so much about killing GW as it is about opening up wargaming to other companies in a bigger way than it is now. Which isn't bad at all and honestly would be a good thing - its a shame that PP has started losing that fight; though I also think that there are other elements and the fact that many 3rd party stores struggle and generally favour things like Magic over wargames tends to not help the wargame market.

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 Da Boss wrote:
The Imperium is not Space-America. If anything it is space Germany from the Middle Ages. Well, the Holy Roman Empire, anyway. Crossed with communism and nazism for good measure.
The Imperium is far less individualistic than the United States. Maybe Chaos fits you guys better? Hyper individualistic and also kinda religious?


I'd like to point out that the Imperium best matches the Byzantine empire, but this isnt the thread to get into that...

   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
If 7th didn't totally kill GW then nothing will. GW exist simply because of the way copyright law allows you to monopolize IP. If other companies could make 40k models they would have been run out of business years ago.


GW's IP is just so incredibly strong. The difference in quality between GW IP and that of other companies is vast. I imagine GW has invested so much into IP at this point that they'd still have plenty of options even some mistakes are made in their core business of selling models.

Right now the big push to bring the Warhammer brand up to modern standards is working tremendously and you can really see how all of that deep investment in IP development from 3E to 7E is paying off. They are currently reaping the rewards of all of that prior work.

   
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People have made the cry that tech will crush more physical past times, I still think it will. Parents still won't want to spend the money on models to get kids away from screens they should be wanting them to do more physical past times in general. At this point I have not seen young kid one buying in, where I did around 5th editions launch.

The start up and maintaining it is just too expensive and it's always the same story. Now maybe most who post here only live in the lap of luxury but far more of the world doesn't and I don't think it's any coincidence the costs keep going up and up. If anything the new players tend to be returning players and the rises are all going to the old players who aren't starting armies from scratch and merely adding to current armies.

If I wasn't so invested already, and only kept up with things I'd not start it out fresh now. I currently wouldn't get a child into it knowing the hundreds of thousands of dollars it would be. The vast majority of kids I end up seeing as well couldn't care less about modeling. All our impressions however aren't anymore than local experience and as said I don't think they are going anywhere for a long while.

Saying there is no path for down turn though is just silly. As nice as these toy soldiers are eventually, they too will fall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 01:20:50


 
   
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Well, for kids the GW products are not really attractive: prices, not digital, assembling and painting miniatures. The trend goes away from consoles and into handys / pads via cloud computing.
We had the discussion here for years that GW is not able to get kids into the game. This situation hasn't changed.
But what we see here are new players at age 20 or so who have the money to buy into the system.
Forget the kids discussion, its an abstract one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/08 07:15:16


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BrianDavion wrote:
it's a lot easier to home brew d&d to the point yiu're not buying anything for D&D. meanwhile with 40k even if you're writing your own rules you're still having to buy minis.


Well, you have to buy someone's minis*, sometime....


* Assumes minis are an essential element to the game - vs just tokens.
   
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It may be, but I think as time keeps pressing forward it'll be increasingly hard to get even the 20 somethings to care. People just don't have the patience they used to. It takes way too long to do much with this hobby for most. I'm old enough to remember before people had cell phones or most even used computers I value the experience mini games offer. I still think thats something that won't last.

I do hope it does, as I've had good people to play against and even in the most dire times loved playing warhammer. For me, it's always a step above digital entertainment. To say people don't change though and things aren't pressing to ever more digital no fuss no muss past times is I think ignoring the trend.

I wasn't one of the ones who said it was heading this way 10 years ago, now however I have this feeling like most of the profits seen is just in the raised costs and breakneck pace of releases in combination. Once that slows down then it would be interesting but they can't keep it up forever eventually the well will run dry.
   
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ccs wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
it's a lot easier to home brew d&d to the point yiu're not buying anything for D&D. meanwhile with 40k even if you're writing your own rules you're still having to buy minis.


Well, you have to buy someone's minis*, sometime....


* Assumes minis are an essential element to the game - vs just tokens.


You don't even necessarily need tokens. D&D can be played with theatre of the mind, though it takes a certain kind of group.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
I'm just shocked you took an obvious exaggerative comparison seriously. Good show.

In other words: "it was a joke. Please don't take it seriously."


I wouldn't worry, its most just a hangover from you 'merikeens tricking us out of our Empire with thinking...

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 Da Boss wrote:
The Imperium is not Space-America. If anything it is space Germany from the Middle Ages. Well, the Holy Roman Empire, anyway. Crossed with communism and nazism for good measure.
The Imperium is far less individualistic than the United States. Maybe Chaos fits you guys better? Hyper individualistic and also kinda religious?


Primaris however...
the exceptional marine. Boo-yah.
Blingy ghetto pistol styles,
oversized rifles on jump pack 'shock' troops (?).
I bet the Repulsor has parts that say "General Dynamics" on them somewhere.

   
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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, for kids the GW products are not really attractive: prices, not digital, assembling and painting miniatures. The trend goes away from consoles and into handys / pads via cloud computing.
We had the discussion here for years that GW is not able to get kids into the game. This situation hasn't changed.
But what we see here are new players at age 20 or so who have the money to buy into the system.
Forget the kids discussion, its an abstract one.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/763215.page

And yet an informal poll suggests very strongly the otherwise. That the under 18 is actually the age bracket that the majority of gamers begin the hobby and that once you hit 20 there's a very steep falloff in recruiting people new to the hobby in general. Kids is not abstract its the core and I'd wager you'd see a very similar pattern for magic the gathering too and quite a few other hobbies.

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 auticus wrote:
This thread has been rolling since the 1990s. I remember when the first plastic skeleton box was released. It was $20 for 20 plastic models. And people lost their mind and said GW was going to bust any day now from their greed. That was roughly 1998 and banter was on the old AOL chat channels.


Ooh, these guys from the days of WHFB 2e?
http://solegends.com/citboxes2/skeletonhorde.htm
24 skellies in a box way back in 1986/87.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 auticus wrote:
This thread has been rolling since the 1990s. I remember when the first plastic skeleton box was released. It was $20 for 20 plastic models. And people lost their mind and said GW was going to bust any day now from their greed. That was roughly 1998 and banter was on the old AOL chat channels.

Then the land raider kit debut at $45 and the liquid hot magma of rage was scorching all in its path, because tamiya tanks were tons more detailed and cost about the same. And GW was going bust any day from their greed.

That was in 2000.

Portent and then warseer had a years long thread with over 1000 pages on the topic of GW going bust from their too high prices.

Here we are in 2019 and the thread is alive and well and the same topic for the same reasons.

I don't think they are going anywhere. They are for most of us the only game in town, like it or not.


Huh, how much was $20 in 1990?

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 Stux wrote:
ccs wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
it's a lot easier to home brew d&d to the point yiu're not buying anything for D&D. meanwhile with 40k even if you're writing your own rules you're still having to buy minis.


Well, you have to buy someone's minis*, sometime....


* Assumes minis are an essential element to the game - vs just tokens.


You don't even necessarily need tokens. D&D can be played with theatre of the mind, though it takes a certain kind of group.


I was referring to 40k.
   
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 Overread wrote:
What I find interesting is of those who want "GW to die" most then go on to say how they'd like another company/person/team/setup running GW. So what they want isn't for GW to die at all. What they want is for policies, skills and some directions in GW to change. So rather than die they rather just want a change of CEO and key controlling individuals within the company resulting in a shift of skills and policies closer to what they want.

Some others also want GW to weaken in its hold on the market and to open it up to others. So its not so much about killing GW as it is about opening up wargaming to other companies in a bigger way than it is now. Which isn't bad at all and honestly would be a good thing - its a shame that PP has started losing that fight; though I also think that there are other elements and the fact that many 3rd party stores struggle and generally favour things like Magic over wargames tends to not help the wargame market.


Most people don't understand what would actually happen if a new company aquired GW. they'd likely scrap 40k all together and use the IP to produce something differant. like a CMG based around crappy click bases. *is STILL bitter about MWDA*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 09:48:33


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 auticus wrote:
This thread has been rolling since the 1990s. I remember when the first plastic skeleton box was released. It was $20 for 20 plastic models. And people lost their mind and said GW was going to bust any day now from their greed. That was roughly 1998 and banter was on the old AOL chat channels.

Then the land raider kit debut at $45 and the liquid hot magma of rage was scorching all in its path, because tamiya tanks were tons more detailed and cost about the same. And GW was going bust any day from their greed.

That was in 2000.

Portent and then warseer had a years long thread with over 1000 pages on the topic of GW going bust from their too high prices.

Here we are in 2019 and the thread is alive and well and the same topic for the same reasons.

I don't think they are going anywhere. They are for most of us the only game in town, like it or not.


Huh, how much was $20 in 1990?


$20

Looking it up, comparable to about $40 today.
https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=20&year=1990
   
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Holy Terra

I remember when a can of cola from a vending machine was 20 pence. Now its £1.50-2 depending on where you are.

Some things increase in price lots, some not so much - I don't feel GW are at an unreasonable price point.

It could be expensive if you're in a hurry to put together an army and make lots of purchases, that's true. Any initial start up to a hobby can have a high cost if unchecked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 10:36:31


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 Ishagu wrote:
I remember when a can of cola from a vending machine was 20 pence. Now its £1.50-2 depending on where you are.


ouch, I'd forgotten how much Soda was in europe vs North America. that same can of cola here goes for a buck to a buck twenty five.

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Racerguy180 wrote:


Peregrine wrote:
 Elfric wrote:
It's unbelievable that there is a group of Warhammer fans that really want Games Workshop to fail.


Because it's what is best for the hobby in the long run. 40k is a strong IP concept with serious problems in management and game design. The best outcome would be for GW to die and for WOTC or FFG to buy the IP, get rid of all of the incompetent employees, and release a much better execution of the concept. Until then we're stuck with rules bloat, IGOUGO, and constant FAQs to fix their lack of proofreading.


That's exactlywhat I want, either one of those companies running GW. MTG is a cancer(opinion) and one of the main reasons there are soooo many 40k players who treat the game like MTG.

GW is doing just fine and the game seems to be working out for a significant # of players. Just not for the incredibly negative anti GW rhetoric spewing individuals.


See, I'm kinda in the middle. I agree with Perri that GW frankly needs someone more competent at the reigns, but at the same time players are treating it like Tragic the Saddening; which the game is clearly not meant for. Now, inherently this is not bad. WMH functions in a similar way and the game is far tighter than 40k, but that is because it is fit for purpose. 40k is not and is being bent and broken by these MTG types into something it is not.

It can't cut both ways. Either they need a sharper game to cater to (presumably) what the market now wants or kick them out somehow (dunno, maybe by finding a new game to ruin. Though to be fair GW was caught in a perfect storm as a lot of WMH players abandoned ship due to a rocky Mk3 launch and 8th (initially) getting 40k into gear at roughly the same time) to continue with the game as "intended".



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GW will never crash. The closest they came was during the Kirby era and if they didn't fail then I don't know what will kill them. It's hard to imagine someone WORSE than Kirby at the reigns.

 
   
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 Grimtuff wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:


Peregrine wrote:
 Elfric wrote:
It's unbelievable that there is a group of Warhammer fans that really want Games Workshop to fail.


Because it's what is best for the hobby in the long run. 40k is a strong IP concept with serious problems in management and game design. The best outcome would be for GW to die and for WOTC or FFG to buy the IP, get rid of all of the incompetent employees, and release a much better execution of the concept. Until then we're stuck with rules bloat, IGOUGO, and constant FAQs to fix their lack of proofreading.


That's exactlywhat I want, either one of those companies running GW. MTG is a cancer(opinion) and one of the main reasons there are soooo many 40k players who treat the game like MTG.

GW is doing just fine and the game seems to be working out for a significant # of players. Just not for the incredibly negative anti GW rhetoric spewing individuals.


See, I'm kinda in the middle. I agree with Perri that GW frankly needs someone more competent at the reigns, but at the same time players are treating it like Tragic the Saddening; which the game is clearly not meant for. Now, inherently this is not bad. WMH functions in a similar way and the game is far tighter than 40k, but that is because it is fit for purpose. 40k is not and is being bent and broken by these MTG types into something it is not.

It can't cut both ways. Either they need a sharper game to cater to (presumably) what the market now wants or kick them out somehow (dunno, maybe by finding a new game to ruin. Though to be fair GW was caught in a perfect storm as a lot of WMH players abandoned ship due to a rocky Mk3 launch and 8th (initially) getting 40k into gear at roughly the same time) to continue with the game as "intended".


Honestly i think its GW that has bent and break 40k. It could be far far better in everything, if they put the effort into it. There are rules that where perfectly fine, if cleaned up they abandon to fit the poor design of models and theme.
Rule of cool, Its an excuse to say meh things are cool so they do not have to put the design work into them at this point.
   
 
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