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 aphyon wrote:

Uh yeah i remember what happened ,saw the pictures to when the US drove a tank column through bahgdad right near the end of combat operations in 2003.

lots and lots of little nicks in the paint from AK rounds bouncing off the armor. the state of the metal was-it needed a new coat of paint. there are images from Iraq of damage done to the front of M1s from PRGs that didn't even pen the armor, made a nice hole or a few in the outer layers.....thats a glancing hit from a krak missile under the old damge chart...so tell me again how an autogun/lasgun or even a bolter is gonna hurt a leman russ from the front?

Are you trying to compare real world realities to a game of dice set 40,000 years from now

Its just a game mechanic.

Do you know that the baneblade has its fuel tank exposed in the rear? Is it possible that an explosive round from a bolter can pop some tracks off a tank? Is it possible that a laser beam can destroy or damage some equipment on the tank?

Tanks got fragile marginally but also no longer have shooting arcs and the same armor all round. Its just a game mechanic at the end of the day.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:


A lot of people opt for Scorpius when the TFC is an option. Why? D2.

When shooting marines in cover from Heavy Doc - TFC kills 2.2 mini (26.4 points) and 1.1 primaris (18.8 points). The Scorpius kills 1.8 mini (21 points) and 1.8 primaris (30 points).

In one scenario mini marines 40% more points. In the other Primaris lose 42% more points. Of course this applies up until you start pulling the PG models off the table, but then you'll lean more into damage the primaris will lean more into defense.

I just get the sense that people have an aversion to losing models.

Christ. DA mini-marines are 30" guns making the grav-guns 24" or 30" plasma with innate reroll 1s. Such a squad can sit like Intercessors, double tap, and toss a PG shot in for good measure. And I bet you won't miss the AP1 when stealers or sisters ignore it.

What game are you playing? The TFC was the number one heavy weapon choice at the LVO and all tournaments prior. Its also a 215pt model vs a 92 point model You bet your ass that the Scorpius better be firing to maximise its points recovery. And as someone else mentioned, Scorpius is also taken in conjunction with TFC. So the TFC will likely be used to finish up something the Scorpius can't kill or otherwise it certainly will go for Tacticals.

Losing models is a key part of the game. When the reason people bring troops is usually to hold objectives, its pretty important not to lose them.

If the squad can shoot, it can be shot back in return. A squad that job is to sit you want to build into durability rather than output. The issue is that intercessors can do both pretty well. Bring assault bolters for volume, stalkers for damage.

 Smirrors wrote:

If the squad can shoot, it can be shot back in return.

Not if all eligible shooters are dead.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

If the squad can shoot, it can be shot back in return.

Not if all eligible shooters are dead.

Sounds good in your head I am sure.

No one should ever bring Tactical Squads unless they have the models and desperate to use them (like the dude that hates primaris fluff and so no point debating). They dramatically lost effectiveness prior to primaris so I am not sure why people are fighting for them now.

If your argument is D2 weapons then you are really trying to debate that because no one takes Tacticals any more that makes them an edge case and therefore magically viable. No they will die just as fast and give away free kills.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

If the squad can shoot, it can be shot back in return.

Not if all eligible shooters are dead.

Sounds good in your head I am sure.

No one should ever bring Tactical Squads unless they have the models and desperate to use them (like the dude that hates primaris fluff and so no point debating). They dramatically lost effectiveness prior to primaris so I am not sure why people are fighting for them now.

If your argument is D2 weapons then you are really trying to debate that because no one takes Tacticals any more that makes them an edge case and therefore magically viable. No they will die just as fast and give away free kills.

"Good in my head"? It's literally how I've played all edition.

Except that the way you load them up makes them just as expensive as Intercessors for significantly less durability, all for not much an offensive punch either.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eh, no less different than a lasgun being able to kill a Riptide or Terminator in my eyes. The difference between a Riptide and a walker is negligible IMO, which is why I'm glad they were given the same sort of profile, and considering that Terminators are supposed to be mini-tanks in their own right, wearing armour that can withstand plasma generators, shouldn't you also "need" anti-tank weaponry to kill them too?

Maybe they hit a weak spot in the armour/tracks/fuel source/weapon magazine/vision slit/manufacturing defect, maybe they're shooting through an existing hole blown through by another squad.

There's plenty of ways to rationalise it beyond just "shoot enough lasguns and it rolls over dead".

Absolutely.

It was entirely arbitrary in 7e that a Lasgun couldn't hurt a Rhino but could hurt a Riptide, just because one has AV and the other Toughness. That makes way less sense to me than the current system.

Couldn't hurt a Carnifex either. Once you got over 3 T values above the S, target was immune. Makes sense enough to me.

Except it really doesn't make sense because a Carnifex could be shot at in its eyes, which is an obvious weak point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except that the way you load them up makes them just as expensive as Intercessors for significantly less durability, all for not much an offensive punch either.

Still win plenty though. That's good enough for me.

Seriously, it's like Tacticals killed your dog or something.

 Insectum7 wrote:

"Good in my head"? It's literally how I've played all edition.

There are people that play all sorts of random units. That is ok.

But I dont think you will convince people to use tacticals competitively.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Seriously, it's like Tacticals killed your dog or something.

Its like you have a tonne of tactical models with gravs or something


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Im looking back at your comments and they really make no rationale sense...

 Insectum7 wrote:

Fair enough. I've found that my Tacticals last a while because the opponent is busy killing my devs, etc. And their offensive output in turn helps my army's overall surviveability by knocking out a few extra heavy hitters.

Why not use grav devastators for knocking out heavy hitters and leaving the tax troops slots to intercessors?

^It's a strange pathology that can't admit to a unit having any possible advantage. Well armed Tacticals can out damage Intercessors, esp. against heavier targets. Whether you want to make the 1 wound sacrifice for that potential is up to you.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I'm not saying Tacs are superior. I'm saying they can do things that Intercessors can't, and I argue that if you design around their strengths, they make fine troops.

Why would you ever design anything around a strength of what is basically a tax unit. GW doesn't care for them, not sure why you do so much.

Funny thing is Intercessors are so good that you legit can actually do that with them with their bulk wounds, simply adding a 5+++ really makes them tough and strats like transhuman make them even more durable.

Play IH, used cogitated martyrdom to act as tau drones, walk around freely with uber stalker rifles

Play IF, do damage 3 to vehicles, shoot went you die with an ancient shenanigans

Play RG, deepstrike a 10 man squad, 30 shots on arrival, then another 32 attacks on the charge

For ITC, if you have nothing else to do, play them as engineers.

Intercessors have so much play value its crazy.

But yes you go play with your Tacticools!


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 Insectum7 wrote:
^It's a strange pathology that can't admit to a unit having any possible advantage. Well armed Tacticals can out damage Intercessors, esp. against heavier targets. Whether you want to make the 1 wound sacrifice for that potential is up to you.

I can freely admin that if you wanted to you could make skewed arguments for tacticals having an advantage

But that's also called a niche

Or otherwise known as handicap

Reality is, and how everyone else plays it, if you want to target heavier targets, you just bring devastators if you want OG marines. But you want to argue bringing 5 units of tacticals to do the same job.

^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well armed Tacticals can out damage Intercessors, esp. against heavier targets.

Can they? The last argument I saw you making was something about 5 Tacticals all with grav-cannons, at which point is just a Devastator Squad?

With bolters being in all ways inferior to bolt rifles, it's down to the Sergeant's weapon and the single weapon carried by the 5th guy to do all the heavy lifting - can they make that different mathematically? That's a genuine question, btw - assuming things like no Chapter Tactics, no stratagems, no buffing characters, etc, can Tacticals out-damage Intercessors? Can they do so at a cheaper cost? Will they be capable of contributing aside from mere DPS?

Again, considering that the bulk of Tactical damage comes from their single support weapon, why not take a whole unit of support weapons?

How would you feel about Intercessor Squads if one guy could have the equivalent plasma incinerator "support" weapon (ie, whole squad with stalker bolt rifles, and heavy plasma incinerator support, or auto bolt rifles, and the assault plasma incinerator)?


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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

But wouldn't you still have to pay for those weapons? On a tax unit, don't you want to keep the cost low?

Doesn't affect me, I play PL, but on a points standpoint, wouldn't that be a concern for you?

I'm not sure heavy weapons on one wound marines is very good anymore.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

It just shows your lacking of understanding the game from a competitive point of view.

Devs are good because they are efficient. You are not paying for much wastage. Plus there is the cherub. The only tax is the sergeant.

Secondly the game from a competitive stand point is all about efficiency of strategems. The grav amp strat allows you to reroll wounds and damage. It is the only thing that makes grav devastators viable at killing stuff. Same with centurion devastators. Being able to reroll wounds on T6+ is critical to making this gun work. The damage boost is nice cherry on top.

It can only be played once per phase. Spending 1cp so that it affects 4 grav cannons is going to be much better than affecting 1. That 5 man team is going to be sent to its death via drop pod but kill something on its way out. There is virtually no point in having extra bodies because everything in the game can kill a tactical marine with ease. Try getting 4 separate squads to bear all their heavy weapons (range 24") at the right target...yeah its not going to happen.

I think in a separate post you mentioned bring in 2 combat squads that have all the special/heavy weapons. Once again efficiency of the grav strat can only go to 1 combat squad and you are likely going to waste those tactical marines after they've landed.

Once again, not having a go at your choice of playing tactical squads with heavy weapons, its just not a competitive choice.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

With bolters being in all ways inferior to bolt rifles, it's down to the Sergeant's weapon and the single weapon carried by the 5th guy to do all the heavy lifting - can they make that different mathematically? That's a genuine question, btw - assuming things like no Chapter Tactics, no stratagems, no buffing characters, etc, can Tacticals out-damage Intercessors? Can they do so at a cheaper cost? Will they be capable of contributing aside from mere DPS?

Again, considering that the bulk of Tactical damage comes from their single support weapon, why not take a whole unit of support weapons?

That's a good question, but lets put out an example for it. You have two options
Option A) 5 Intercessors, 5 Hellblasters with incinerators - (85) + (165) for 250pts total
Option B) 5 tacticals with Plasma/Combi-Plas (82) * 3 for 246pts total

Pretty close Option A has 10 bodies with 20 wounds, and 5 RF plasma weapons which are better then the Tac counterpart
Option B has 15 bodies with 15 wounds, and 6 RF plasma weapons, albeit at shorter range. And fills out two more troop slots

Now lets put these in a common situation. Fighting Riptides (Str 6 -2 2D is a common profile).
If I brought Option A, I have absolutely no way of stopping the riptide from killing primaris beyond LoS. So the opponent realizing that the Hellblasters are a larger threat is going to fire into them.
W/O markerlight support but novacharging the gun its 18 Shots -> 9 Hits -> 6 Wounds -> 4 Dead Hellblasters. That is a SIGNIFICANT degradation of firepower.
If I brought Option B, The riptide fires at one of the tactical squads, kills 4 leaving the Sgt with his combi-plas. Leaving me with 5 Plasma Guns compared to 1 Plasma Incinerator. Embedded Special weapons are one of the biggest advantages that Tacs have over intercessors. If Intercessors ever take that ability then Tacs are truly dusted.

Sure Option A is slightly more durable when it comes to mortal wounds and 1 Damage weapons. Even in that case need to take 5 wounds to remove 2 Plasma guns, whereas the hellblaster only need to lose 4 to remove two.

Personally I think autobolters are better than tac heavy weapons. At least for the problems I have in games.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure heavy weapons on one wound marines is very good anymore.

Not in general but Devs with Gravs can do solid work. A 210pt unit (Iron Hands, 5 man with cherub and drop pod) with 1 CP can deal out 15.84 wounds to a T8 3+. Thats basically killing a 324 point Repulsor Executioner with 1 salvo. And can do so on T1. Or it can do 9.51 wounds to T8 4++.

It's hard to screen out 24" range too. I don't think BA have the strats to support it though.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well armed Tacticals can out damage Intercessors, esp. against heavier targets.

Can they?

5 man Tactical Squad w/ Grav Cannon vs. Intercessors, Tactical Doctrine
8 x .666 x .5 x.5 + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83 x 2) = 4.27w

5 Intercessors vs. Intercessors, Tactical Doctrine
10 x .666 x .5 x .666 = 2.2w

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

But wouldn't you still have to pay for those weapons? On a tax unit, don't you want to keep the cost low?

Tactical unit costs 80 points. Intercessor unit costs 85. So my "tax unit" costs less. In our scenario against Intercessors, the Tactical Squad almost doubles the damage output of the Intercessors. Also, because the damage output of the unit is primarily from one model, the damage output of the unit will degrade slower.

Dual Plasma costs 2 points more, but averages more damage with S8 and AP-4 in Tactical. For 91 points you can add a Combi-Plasma to the Grav-Cannon squad, which gets them to 5w vs. Intercessors.

 Smirrors wrote:
The grav amp strat allows you to reroll wounds and damage. It is the only thing that makes grav devastators viable at killing stuff.

What's better, four Grav Cannons with the Stratagem? Or eight Grav Cannons with four using the Stratagem? MOAR is better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
The grav amp strat allows you to reroll wounds and damage. It is the only thing that makes grav devastators viable at killing stuff.

What's better, four Grav Cannons with the Stratagem? Or eight Grav Cannons with four using the Stratagem? MOAR is better.

Your logical is bad.

Just take another devastator squad which has another cherub.

There is no reason to take tactical marines if you think about it.

"What's better, four Grav Cannons with the Stratagem? Or eight Grav Cannons with four using the Stratagem? MOAR is better.
"

I think that's way too many points on grav cannons.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
The grav amp strat allows you to reroll wounds and damage. It is the only thing that makes grav devastators viable at killing stuff.

What's better, four Grav Cannons with the Stratagem? Or eight Grav Cannons with four using the Stratagem? MOAR is better.

Your logical is bad.

Just take another devastator squad which has another cherub.

There is no reason to take tactical marines if you think about it.

Hehehe, you misunderstand. I'm already taking three Devastator Squads, which is the max. But four additional Tactical Squads (with four Grav Cannons and eight Plasma guns) is like taking three MORE Devastators Squads, except they're troops.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

Tactical unit costs 80 points. Intercessor unit costs 85. So my "tax unit" costs less. In our scenario against Intercessors, the Tactical Squad almost doubles the damage output of the Intercessors. Also, because the damage output of the unit is primarily from one model, the damage output of the unit will degrade slower.

Dual Plasma costs 2 points more, but averages more damage with S8 and AP-4 in Tactical. For 91 points you can add a Combi-Plasma to the Grav-Cannon squad, which gets them to 5w vs. Intercessors.

While theory hammer serves you well in this argument, the practical argument will tell you that a 5 man tactical squad will never realistically get an opportunity to shoot at a 5 man intercessor squad. With a range of 24, the squad will be lucky to even shoot once per game. More than likely they will be the first units to die. And thats why durability becomes important.

Naturally you like to pick and choose when it suits you. A 5 man tactical squad with grav does 4.22 damage at 24" range. The 5 man intercessor squad with stalker bolt rifles will do 2.78 damage at 36" range. If we want to play the range game, the 5 man tactical squad will never get a chance to shoot at the intercessors and die in 2 turns.

Intercessors will shoot first and kill 2-3 tacticals. At best the tactical will kill 2 intercessors (if it is even in range). The remaining 3 intercessors will just as likely finish off the last 2 tacticals. That is being generous.

Not all opponents are marines. Grav cannons fall apart vs hordes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hehehe, you misunderstand. I'm already taking three Devastator Squads, which is the max. But four additional Tactical Squads (with four Grav Cannons and eight Plasma guns) is like taking three MORE Devastators Squads, except they're troops.

No I am not misunderstanding anything. You can make up any scenario to make something better. Your arguments are all fundamentally flawed. And you keep adding special conditions to make tacticals "better".

 Smirrors wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

Tactical unit costs 80 points. Intercessor unit costs 85. So my "tax unit" costs less. In our scenario against Intercessors, the Tactical Squad almost doubles the damage output of the Intercessors. Also, because the damage output of the unit is primarily from one model, the damage output of the unit will degrade slower.

Dual Plasma costs 2 points more, but averages more damage with S8 and AP-4 in Tactical. For 91 points you can add a Combi-Plasma to the Grav-Cannon squad, which gets them to 5w vs. Intercessors.

While theory hammer serves you well in this argument, the practical argument will tell you that a 5 man tactical squad will never realistically get an opportunity to shoot at a 5 man intercessor squad. With a range of 24, the squad will be lucky to even shoot once per game. More than likely they will be the first units to die. And thats why durability becomes important.

Naturally you like to pick and choose when it suits you. A 5 man tactical squad with grav does 4.22 damage at 24" range. The 5 man intercessor squad with stalker bolt rifles will do 2.78 damage at 36" range. If we want to play the range game, the 5 man tactical squad will never get a chance to shoot at the intercessors and die in 2 turns.

Intercessors will shoot first and kill 2-3 tacticals. At best the tactical will kill 2 intercessors (if it is even in range). The remaining 3 intercessors will just as likely finish off the last 2 tacticals. That is being generous.

Who's theory hammering with zero maneuvering and a featureless table?


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Martel732 wrote:
Not all opponents are marines. Grav cannons fall apart vs hordes.

Few armies don't have any multiwound models or vehicles of any kind. I mix my Grav with other weapons, depending on meta.

Besides, I hear Marines are pretty popular right now.


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 Smirrors wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hehehe, you misunderstand. I'm already taking three Devastator Squads, which is the max. But four additional Tactical Squads (with four Grav Cannons and eight Plasma guns) is like taking three MORE Devastators Squads, except they're troops.

No I am not misunderstanding anything. You can make up any scenario to make something better. Your arguments are all fundamentally flawed. And you keep adding special conditions to make tacticals "better".

Really? Shooting at Intercessors is some extremely contrived "special condition" scenario?

Smirrors has it right.

DIce averages are just that, an average under optimal conditions. as an opponent i am not going to just let you get those optimal positions if i can help it. as the old saying goes-no plan survives contact with the enemy.


8th edition is an entirely different game from the last 5 editions just like switching from 2nd to 3rd.

GW redesigned marines to fit into this new edition even adding some terribly written lore to try and justify it instead of just saying these are the new edition version of marines. but in doing so they didn't want to invalidate peoples collections for once. so you can still take tac marines but now with the lack of fixed armor saves, hard cover saves and the exponential increase in shots being fired Tactical marines are out of their element.

GW wants you to buy primaris units. they are slowly giving them every option they need to do what tacticals did but better. we know bikes are coming and thats added to the already long list-better bolters, better plasma rifles, better rhinos, better land raiders, better terminator stand ins(aggressors) better jump infantry, better scouts (vanguard/phobos) etc...

Like always it is up to each player to choose an army they want to run and what formations they enjoy. it is also up to each player to choose what type of player they are casual, ITC tournament level competative. etc...

So the base question which is better-GW thinks it is primaris and thats what they are pushing. this doesn't mean you have to agree or even play the way they want you to.

No amount of dice hammer will answer that question.

As a super casual 8th edition "light" player who still plays and prefers HH or 5th edition. i don't care about stratagems overmuch, i don't run armies with lots of command points but i fight people who do and i still win from time to time as well as have enjoyable games. for 8th editon at least i do not run tacticals. i have play tested a variety of primaris builds because they are just straight up better in real play, but i always go back to the units i love most-bikes and vehicles(lots of dreadnoughts)....

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well armed Tacticals can out damage Intercessors, esp. against heavier targets.

Can they?

5 man Tactical Squad w/ Grav Cannon vs. Intercessors, Tactical Doctrine
8 x .666 x .5 x.5 + (4 x .666 x .666 x .83 x 2) = 4.27w

5 Intercessors vs. Intercessors, Tactical Doctrine
10 x .666 x .5 x .666 = 2.2w

Fair point, but did you consider the range the Primaris Marines have? Don't forget, depending on where the Intercessors the grav-cannon is firing are, couldn't they move and reduce the shots the grav can put out? Again, still assuming no strats, no support, etc.

But, yes, I see how that grav is making a deal of difference.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Missed the point entirely then. If Devs are good because they have Heavy weapons, then why not bring the Troops "tax" choice that can also bring heavy weapons? You wind up with even more heavy weapons.

But wouldn't you still have to pay for those weapons? On a tax unit, don't you want to keep the cost low?

Tactical unit costs 80 points. Intercessor unit costs 85. So my "tax unit" costs less. In our scenario against Intercessors, the Tactical Squad almost doubles the damage output of the Intercessors. Also, because the damage output of the unit is primarily from one model, the damage output of the unit will degrade slower.

Dual Plasma costs 2 points more, but averages more damage with S8 and AP-4 in Tactical. For 91 points you can add a Combi-Plasma to the Grav-Cannon squad, which gets them to 5w vs. Intercessors.

Fair point, but their operating range is still shorter, meaning that against those Intercessors, unless they have a (expensive) transport, they're going to have to soak up at least one round of fire before they get into their comfortable range. And again, the Intercessors are getting double the Wounds, for 5 points more. The only real redeeming factor about the Tacticals is that embedded weapon, which essentially turns the entire squad into babysitters for that one gun. Which, personally, I don't like thematically, for what it insinuates, but that's a whole other issue.
When the gun is the most valuable thing about that unit, isn't it better to go find more guns instead, with more whole squads dedicated to it?

Also, I don't believe you answered how you'd feel if Intercessors got embedded plasma incinerators?

Tailored tacticals win vs intercessors and T8 but intercessors win against almost everything else. And since there are no tacticals being played the only bad matchups is t8 which is kind of ok to let things other than basic troops handle. Sure a list with 100 IF/IH stalker intercessors would probably own most t8 lists as well.

Intercessors have a full movement phase of range advantage over tacticals, two if they are dark angels. Comparing tacticals and intercessors shooting at each other in a vacum is just unrealistic.

"Few armies don't have any multiwound models or vehicles of any kind. I mix my Grav with other weapons, depending on meta."

But a lot of them don't have 3+ saves to trigger the D3 damage. Grotesques and invuln bulls come to mind. Grav is expensive AND specialized. Unfortunately. If grav cannons were much cheaper, I'd be much more inclined to use them. But I'm already giving up wound efficiency 12 pts/W vs 8.5 pts/W and then on top of it I'm paying for expensive gear.