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Yeah I usually think most of them are a conspiracy theory too - this one is blatantly an attempt at driving sales though.

If Purestrains were 12ppm troops? Everyone would still take Acolytes. But at least Purestrains would be a fun option if not the most optimal.

It’s as you say - they designed 3 units nearly identical in role and overall stats. They need more interesting special rules or war gear or strats or something. You articulated very well the problems with the dex.

They are in the same club as primaris reavers, a unit that makes no sense to exist, when intercessors exist with weapon options. Better guns, no beneficial point cost, intercessors are troops, better melee because of the thunder hammers on sergants.

Or GK termintors and GK strikes or GK paladins. Same thing.

Karol wrote:
They are in the same club as primaris reavers, a unit that makes no sense to exist, when intercessors exist with weapon options. Better guns, no beneficial point cost, intercessors are troops, better melee because of the thunder hammers on sergants.

Or GK termintors and GK strikes or GK paladins. Same thing.

I think Reivers actually do make a certain amount of sense as a cheap unit with native Deep Strike and pseudo-fly for Primaris-only collectors. They're a whole lot better than Assault Marines for drop-in-and-charge operations (althought that's not saying much) and they're about as good per-point as Termies at dropping in and plastering something with bolt rounds (although that isn't saying much either).

They'd make a whole lot more sense if they got the Bolt Carbide and Combat Knife instead of having to choose between them though. Even as-is they'd probably see a lot more play if they were a Troop choice instead of an Elite.

Reivers are a Kill Team unit that got ported to 40k.

Man, I'd have to carefully engineer those wishes because I need a lot of little things done.

For instance, for the Orks? #1 is that all Ork infantry with a 6+ save gets the following set of changes:

-1 Attack
Improve to a 5+ Save.
Reduced in cost by 1 point.

This results in a reduction in hitting power for an increase in staying power... normally a dubious tradeoff, and a 5+ save isn't much in a world filled with AP -2 all over the place, but it, combined with the cost reduction, means that basic troopers will stick around for a round or two, which is what troops are supposed to do, pushing more of the killing jobs to other units. I mean, a basic boy can still wind up dishing out 4 attacks on a 2+, with Strength 5, in masses of up to thirty taking whacks, so it's not a HUGE reduction in fighting ability, but it's needed to make the point cost fair. This has a side effect of making Lootas a teensy bit tougher, STormboyz and Kommandos not quite as glass cannon, and, in general, pulls Troops back to being Da Boyz instead of just Grots.

On top of this, the Warboss needs a massive makeover to have an inherent 4++ save (taken care of to an extent in current Strategeums, but) and better auras … a morale boost for an army that's largely immune to morale is wasted, and Waaaagh would be better served as, say, reroll 1's in the fight phase. Along with this is a return of the Big Boss, akin to a Marine Lt, with the stats of a Nob Banner, a cost of 32, access to all the weapon options (Shooty and Nob), and 1-3 per HQ slot used to grab one, all topped off with a reroll 1's to wound in the fight phase.

There's more, but I think I've made the genie dizzy already.

Wakshaani wrote:
Man, I'd have to carefully engineer those wishes because I need a lot of little things done.

For instance, for the Orks? #1 is that all Ork infantry with a 6+ save gets the following set of changes:

-1 Attack
Improve to a 5+ Save.
Reduced in cost by 1 point.

This results in a reduction in hitting power for an increase in staying power... normally a dubious tradeoff, and a 5+ save isn't much in a world filled with AP -2 all over the place, but it, combined with the cost reduction, means that basic troopers will stick around for a round or two, which is what troops are supposed to do, pushing more of the killing jobs to other units. I mean, a basic boy can still wind up dishing out 4 attacks on a 2+, with Strength 5, in masses of up to thirty taking whacks, so it's not a HUGE reduction in fighting ability, but it's needed to make the point cost fair. This has a side effect of making Lootas a teensy bit tougher, STormboyz and Kommandos not quite as glass cannon, and, in general, pulls Troops back to being Da Boyz instead of just Grots.

Why on earth the -1 attack? There is a reason why people are using slugga boyz instead of shoota boyz to do the fighting. That *is* a huge reduction in fighting ability, S5 is goff only and banners tend to be not near boyz.
Boyz have some problems, but your suggestions aren't solving them. The 7ppm is kind of necessary to prevent green tides from outshining every other thing in the codex, but enabling to able to field mobs of 12 or 20 which fit into transports could make gretchin less mandatory. There have been multiple ideas how to do this, like making nobz hit harder again, a separate datasheet for trukk boyz or a stratagem related to boyz disembarking from transports. Going in detail would derail this thread though.
As for more durability, changing the 'ard boyz stratagem to provide a 4+ save for 1 CP would already help a lot.

On top of this, the Warboss needs a massive makeover to have an inherent 4++ save (taken care of to an extent in current Strategeums, but) and better auras … a morale boost for an army that's largely immune to morale is wasted, and Waaaagh would be better served as, say, reroll 1's in the fight phase. Along with this is a return of the Big Boss, akin to a Marine Lt, with the stats of a Nob Banner, a cost of 32, access to all the weapon options (Shooty and Nob), and 1-3 per HQ slot used to grab one, all topped off with a reroll 1's to wound in the fight phase.

There's more, but I think I've made the genie dizzy already.

To be honest, all this sounds like you want to be playing a melee-oriented marines chapter instead of orks.

Yeah, lowering the cost of 'ard boys is on the wider agenda, but the big one is the core uplifting of a 5+ save and 6 PPM.

Lowering the cost and improving the model at the same time's not a good approach tho and something had to go, and attack was the most obvious one. It means that the larger number won't be absolutely overwhelming and Orks can still rack up 3 attacks each just by existing, plus more with a support unit.

It fits the fluff better, since they're these nigh-indestructible gorillas that get limbs lopped off, shrug, and keep fighting, and makes for a force that's more durable and fun on the tabletop than just sighing and picking up another 20+ models all the time.

So, the punchier units look better in comparison, the boyz do what troops do and hang around better, and you get more VOLUME on the table, which looks better.

Everybody wins.

Even the guys going from 150 attacks to 120 aren't exactly *hurting*, you know?

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, lowering the cost of 'ard boys is on the wider agenda, but the big one is the core uplifting of a 5+ save and 6 PPM.

Lowering the cost and improving the model at the same time's not a good approach tho and something had to go, and attack was the most obvious one. It means that the larger number won't be absolutely overwhelming and Orks can still rack up 3 attacks each just by existing, plus more with a support unit.

It fits the fluff better, since they're these nigh-indestructible gorillas that get limbs lopped off, shrug, and keep fighting, and makes for a force that's more durable and fun on the tabletop than just sighing and picking up another 20+ models all the time.

So, the punchier units look better in comparison, the boyz do what troops do and hang around better, and you get more VOLUME on the table, which looks better.

Everybody wins.

Even the guys going from 150 attacks to 120 aren't exactly *hurting*, you know?

Sorry, but it really sounds to me like you are just theorizing about an army that you have never played.
Orks get two attacks base, a slugga adds another one, green tide adds another for boyz only. 150 is only possible if you are running Thrakka, who was an overcosted paperweight even before SotB and got worse.
So 120, assuming you get all 30 orks in combat - which never actually happens. Experience across multiple players in multiple different environment has shown that getting around 20 into combat is what you can expect. The difference between 60 and 80 S4 AP 0 attacks is quite massive - especially when you consider that this unit costs at least 210 points plus additional costs for da jump or tellyporta.
In addition, if you take away the second attack, units like storm boyz, kommandoz, burna boyz and shoota boyz become even more worthless in combat, as does any choppa boyz mob that has dropped below 20.
The whole idea is terrible. Orks don't need guardsmen.

I disagree, but, that's what a wishing genie's for. No worries!

Most of my thoughts with this, Although chaos oriented, would also apply to the marine equivalents:

1. Chaos Marine Raptors go up to 2 attacks basic and gain the option to take alternate chain and power weapons instead of just chainswords.

2. Warp talons gain 2 attacks basic, Deal mortal wounds on a 5+ when charging in the same turn when they deepstrike (They tear out of the warp itself wreathed in warpflame, a really under-represented and under-imagined ability) and can re-enter reserves in the movement phase if they are not engaged in combat. They must return to the table next turn or are automatically destroyed. They also increase slightly in points to represent their new rules (maybe 4-5 points each)

3. Exalted chaimpions gain access to a Jump-pack and gains a 5+ invulnerbale save.

Its may be less fun, but warp talons need some inbuilt way to increase their likelihood of making a charge out of deepstrike (whether that's rerolls, using three dice, extra range whatever) - and 2 wounds.

The problem now is that you have a huge probability of them coming down, failing to charge anything, and then being swatted off the table by a relatively tiny amount of firepower (or a counter charge).

Deep down though, any unit depending on DS->charge will always be unreliable in three turn 40k. Whether your chance of making that charge is 28%, 50% or 70%+, you are having a lot of games where the unit does nothing before the game is effectively decided.

Raptors and Assault Marines probably just need points drops and, as I think someone suggested, possibly some form of "bully Obsec" so getting these fast units around the board means something. Could argue the same for lots of similar units - Hellions and Stormboyz come to mind. You could tool them up with special weapons - but if these are at regular cost, all you are doing is making an even more fragile all or nothing unit.

Don't Night Lord Warp Talons pretty much auto-succeed on charges from deepstrike now?

 harlokin wrote:
Don't Night Lord Warp Talons pretty much auto-succeed on charges from deepstrike now?

True. I guess if you don't mind using a couple of CP and a warlord trait (and going Night Lords) you can have one unit do a 3d6 charge with +2". Which gives you about a 90% chance to get something in 7". Higher again I guess if you were to reroll a dice with another CP.

But that seems like a lot of set up to facilitate one unit - which still has a chance to fail, or, if you roll low just run into the first target.

I guess its special pleading - but what if I wanted to run more than one unit of Warp Talons?
I guess in a world of highlander TAC, having stratagems "fix" units is fine - but it feels like bad design.

Tyel wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Don't Night Lord Warp Talons pretty much auto-succeed on charges from deepstrike now?

True. I guess if you don't mind using a couple of CP and a warlord trait (and going Night Lords) you can have one unit do a 3d6 charge with +2". Which gives you about a 90% chance to get something in 7". Higher again I guess if you were to reroll a dice with another CP.

But that seems like a lot of set up to facilitate one unit - which still has a chance to fail, or, if you roll low just run into the first target.

I guess its special pleading - but what if I wanted to run more than one unit of Warp Talons?
I guess in a world of highlander TAC, having stratagems "fix" units is fine - but it feels like bad design.

Want to make warp talons better? First give jump units back the ability to reroll charges, then give them back Hammer of Wrath. Next make warp talons and raptors one unit. Drop the daemon save and raptor's anti-leadership mechanic. Keep the no overwatch when arriving from deep strike rule but make it "cannot be targeted by shooting attacks in a turn this unit arrived from deep strike " so they can't be targeted by things like Auspex Scan. Give them full selection of power weapons including lightning claws. Finally give them the HH Night Raptor's onslaught rule (+d3 attacks on a successful charge). Point them accordingly.

And yes, "fixing" units with strategems is bad design.

Plus I think that's probably all three wishes on one unit.

Orks

Kommandos: can swap CC weapons for shoota, upgrade 2 models per unit to have special weapons, swap all weapons for sniper rifles and +1 BS.

Burnas: d6 attacks, 8 inch range like all other flamers, -2 ap in mele with CC attacks.

Khorne

Berserkers: get extra attacks on a hit roll of 6. Hero's - parry and counter attack save roll of 6+ causes single damage roll equal to models current CC weapon in mortal wounds.