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2020/04/24 08:18:31
Subject: Re:A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
ArcaneHorror wrote: Just be sure to remember that that 'genie' is undoubtedly a lord of change that will whisper into the ears of GW writers to make other rules that will render the ones you asked for useless a week later.
So basically like the time between when a new codex/ supplement drops and the FAQ is released.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/24 08:19:36
2020/04/24 08:37:15
Subject: Re:A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
H.B.M.C. wrote: This thread is inherently selfish, so I will of course focus on Tyranids:
Carnifex -
Hormagaunts -
Tyranid Monsters in general
100% agree with all said about these 3.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2020/04/24 09:32:16
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Jidmah wrote: From playing against it - mediocre shooting with low, degrading BS, heavy weapons with your choice low range and number of shots or low AP and it dies to a stiff breeze. Basically a worse helbrute for more points.
er yesn't. the issue lies not just with it but also with the units supposedly making it work, because god forbid a daemonengine is worth something without support.
Spoiler:
For a starter, it is better then a hellbrute until you factor in price.
It has access to some of the best weapons chaos has to offer aka the Hades AC however is also terrible plattform.
The units that would make it dangerous , aka lord discordant is a failure in design, as in, his +1 to hit aura should've been on warpsmiths, making a daemonengine gunline actually work.
It's also indeed not much more survivable without support then a hellbrute, requireing either a sorcerer or MoP to get buffed.
It further does not get traits so unlike Alpha legion hellbrutes it get's hindered in durability baseline aswell.
Vice versa it is also the only source of a Hades AC plattform, that kinda works, the Helldrake would need to be able to ignore modifyers to have it's hades AC work which is a shame for a gun that shoots phosphorshells rinsed with hellfire.
It's also annoying because the medicore CSM predator doesn't get access to it and the access to it is severly restricted overall-
then look wise, whilest i like the Dinobot it's not for everyone.
In other words it's holding hostage some of the coolest equipment, is neither durable nor accurate enough to use said equipment and requires like all daemonenegines massive stacking of suppot to be worht it's salt.
This is also, if you indeed want to run daemoneengines that you'd field butcher cannon decimators OVER the forgefiend despite the Butcher cannon beeing overpriced comparatively to the Hades AC and the decimator beeing even more flimsy then the forgefiend.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This thread is inherently selfish, so I will of course focus on Tyranids:
Carnifex -
Hormagaunts -
Tyranid Monsters in general
100% agree with all said about these 3.
Aye, can live with that.
especially the hormagaunts.....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/24 09:35:25
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/04/24 13:49:39
Subject: Re:A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Bloodcrushers: Should be heavily armored things that crash in and pulverize. GW has never done them right.
Flamers of Tzeentch: perfect in 5th, flame template does wounds on a 4+ w/no save, cheap, deepstrike. They won me so many games. Now...meh profile and far less than they were.
Greater Daemons: as a whole, they fall too quickly. They just need a survival boost.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2020/04/25 22:44:41
Subject: Re:A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
alextroy wrote: 1) Celestine and the Gemina Superia: Back to being one unit. Make the Fly Girls Good Again!
2) Chaos Space Marines: The unit needs to be good so that there will be actual Chaos Space Marines in a Chaos Space Marines army!
3) Tactical Marines: I know Primaris are the new hot thing, but the stalwart of the OG Marines needs to be good too!
in fairness tac marines ARE in a pretty good place right now.
Intercessors get double the wounds, triple the attacks, 25% more range and additional AP for just +5 ppm. With ABR they even get triple the ranged attacks for +1 point. Tacticals are worse than useless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/25 22:53:11
2020/04/25 23:59:22
Subject: Re:A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Hmm, I'm a little stuck on what to pick for my third unit. I'm currently torn between:
a) The Destroyer Lord: Not the worst but fails to live up to his potential due to some really baffling design decisions - like giving a melee HQ an aura that can only buff a long-range shooting unit. .
or
b)The DE Succubus. I've done the other two DEHQs so I'm tempted to round it off and do the last one. Though tragically it isn't in the purview of this thread to fix the problem that DE only have 3 generic HQs to begin with. Anyway, my first fix would be to give her weapons that are actually worth a damn (I've already covered Agonisers but I'd basically take the rules for the Blood Glaive artefact and give them to the standard Glaive.). Then, I'd remove her aura entirely and instead change her focus to fighting enemies - especially characters - one-on-one. Put simply, I'd have her be a dedicated gladiator, rather than a leader (under my rules, we'll already have the Archon and Haemonculus for that).
or
c) The Harlequin Troupe Master. Mainly because it would be an opportunity to revise the godawful Harlequin weapons so that they're not just different flavours of boring. (What is it with xenos having the least interesting weapon rules? )
The current rules read like GW had a competition for who could design the most mind-numbingly boring HQ with the fewest relevant options and the least synergy with his own faction.
In terms of the improvements I'd like to make:
- Replace his useless aura with an ability that's actually worth a damn. Preferably something that affects the entire army.
Change the Shadowfield into something along the lines of 5++ with a -1 to hit.
- Bring back option for Clone Field in some form.
- Bring back options in general. e.g. Ghostplate Armour (4+/6++), Soul Trap (Each time the Archon kills a Character or Monster, he heals 1 wound and gains +1S and +1A for the remainder of the game), Combat Drugs, etc.
- Bring back option for a Blaster (without having to go into Legends)
- Add options for Wings, Skyboard and Jetbike.
- Make weapons - particularly melee weapons - actually worth a damn. e.g.:
- Blast Pistol: Increase range to 12"
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
- Huskblade: S: User AP-2 Dd3, Wither: wound rolls of 5+ inflict d3 Mortal Wounds in place of normal damage.
The above are just possibilities but the overall idea is to both improve the DE melee weapons (they're supposed to be glass cannons, not wet socks), but also to differentiate them a bit. Above, I made the Agoniser more effective against multi-wound units, whilst the Huskblade is something of a wild-card, lacking the advantage of Poison but having the potential to deal a chunk of Mortal Wounds. Also, given that the Huskblade is unique to the Archon (implying that it's a good deal rarer), it seemed reasonable that it should have a more noteworthy effect.
2) Haemonculus
Whilst not quite as bad as the Archon the Haemonculus is still a very boring unit with abysmal weapon options.
- I'd like to see his aura adjusted somewhat. I'm not even sure he should have a conventional aura. Maybe instead something like "At the start of the game, if your army contains one or more Haemonculi, choose d3+1 non-Vehicle units and then 2 additional (non-Vehicle) unit for each Haemonculus after the first. The chosen units receive +1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls for the duration of the game.
Again, the details can be tweaked but the idea is that the units have been modified prior to the battle, so they don't need the Haemonculus to sit next to them the entire time.
- I'd give Haemonculi a heal ability similar to that of Apothecary-type units.
- As with Archons, I'd make various changes to their weapons:
- Hexrifle: Assault 1 S- AP-3 D2 Sniper, always wounds on a 2+
- Liquifier Gun: +1S
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
(same as above)
- Electrocorrosive Whip: S+1 AP-1 D2, Haywire
- Mindphase Gauntlet: S8 AP-3 Dd3, Mental Onslaught: This weapon wounds against Ld instead of Toughness.
- Scissorhand: S+1, AP-3, D1 The user can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon. Reroll failed wound rolls with this weapon.
Again, just rough ideas but overall trying to make the weapons more useful and have them serve some different rolls, rather than all of them doing near enough the same thing but with different levels of aptitude.
Will think about unit #3.
These are really fun and make me think of some of the more interesting implementations of rules in 7th (i.e. like wounding against leadership). It really gives me a "what could have been" feeling about if DE had had a later-7th book rather than an earlier-7th and GW had put a bit more thought into it. Oh, and I guess you'd have to pretend that GW would give DE options rather than take them away...
Thanks. And yeah, it's really rather sad how little it would take to inject some fun and flavour into the DEHQs (and the book in general). Same with Corsairs - you could copy and paste their 7th edition entries and you'd already be about 90% done, yet it's now been, what, 3 years and they still haven't got a single HQ choice of their own. You'd think with 8th doing so well they could afford to hire a writer who actually gives a damn about xenos.
Vaktathi wrote: Dark Eldar you'd think would have some sort of specialized sniper unit or characters, that sounds like something they'd be into, with character assassinating poison or something to terrorize squads of troops from unseen vantage points or paralyzer rounds for capturing prisoners or the like. I'm suprised they don't have anything in that vein now that I think about it.
Unfortunately, a lot of the DE assassination options don't really work properly.
Spoiler:
- Hexrifles are currently just basic Sniper Rifles, but whilst other races can take whole units of them DE can only take them on on HQ choice and one squad sergeant - both of which are melee models.
- Poison Tongue Archons can take the Soul-Seeker, which is a sniper pistol artefact. Unfortunately, Poison Tongue is the worst Kabal to begin with, and the Soul-Seeker has too few shots to be a credible threat. It also doesn't get to benefit from the ability of its own Kabal (Poison Tongue lets you reroll 1s to wound with Poison Weapons . . . except in the case of its own artefact ). If it was Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 2 and got the rerolls to wound, it might actually be able to properly threaten characters.
- Mandrakes seem like they should fill this role but they get no benefits against characters and the actual Mandrake assassin character was removed entirely.
- Lhamaeans also seem like good candidates for assassins but are hampered by a pitiful number of attacks combined with wonky rules (they have guardsman-character statlines . . . but no Character protection) and the Rule of Three. Plus, as above, the Kabal that could make best use of them (Poison Tongue) is also by far the weakest and least useful in every other area.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/26 00:10:25
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/04/26 01:53:35
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Make Burna Boyz actually worth taking again. Make their base save 5+ (all Ork elite units should have this at minimum, if not better tbh), and make burnas a flat D6 shots rather than D3. Make it so that the melee profile mode of the burna gives them +1 to wound and +1 damage against vehicles. Bam, now they have the actual jack of all trades unit right here.
Assuming Warbikerz stay at the same cost, give them an inherent -1 to hit against shooting attacks thanks to their exhaust clouds and allow them to gain an additional D3 attacks when they successfully charge. These rules would also cross over to the Nob Biker variant.
Trukks should be able to let units that disembark to charge even after the Trukk has moved.
Honorable Mention: The Stompa. This thing needs to have a baseline invuln. of 4+ at its price and to change its damage table entirely. Make it so it doesn't start degrading until after it goes down to 10 wounds and allow it to have the same disembark rule as the trukk. Reduce its points to 500-600 points range and allow it get Klan traits even in a SH Auxiliary detachment.
2020/04/26 02:04:13
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Pretty much everybody has said land raiders... so I will also say land raiders. Honestly just giving them a 5++ to match terminator saves would work, along with dropping their points a bit. Chaos ones could stand to get some weapon choices (would be nice to get reaper/butcher cannons...) but otherwise durability and points are the biggest fixes needed.
To go with that, the also popular CSM/Tactical picks. I'll just count them as one since they're mostly identical. I would say... maybe treat them like veteran squads. As in getting extra special weapons, melee weapons, etc. Maybe not quite so many as a veteran squad, but enough that all the special weapons in a base box can be used. Really hammer into that difference between primaris and tactical squads. And as for how to differentiate chaos marines...
Make cult marines 2W. It solves a whole bunch of problems all at once (plague marines being useless, berzerkers and noise marines being glass cannons) and basically lets them be the chaos equivalent of intercessors.
2020/04/26 05:13:54
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
That would just make the land raider a predator+1 though...
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/04/26 08:23:24
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
It's a transport for delivering assault troops first and a gunboat second. It would be nice if it could actually do its primary role.
If you just make the landraider viable as battletank and nothing else, predators are obsolete.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/26 08:29:09
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/04/26 08:32:23
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Martel732 wrote: Predators are already crap. They need a massive price cut.
correction, the equipment of the predator needs a pricecut and or viable options.
Cue the pred autocannon 2d3 AC shots isn't impressive for 40 pts....
Also the option on it beeing either, AC or Twin las is underwhelming.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/04/26 08:47:59
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Jidmah wrote: It's a transport for delivering assault troops first and a gunboat second. It would be nice if it could actually do its primary role.
I feel that the inability to disembark from transports - even Assault or open-topped transports - after they've moved is a big misstep from 8th.
Would it really break the game if the rule was something like "if an Assault Transport or Open-Topped transport moves, its passengers may still disembark. However, if they do so, then they must be placed within 3" of the vehicle and cannot otherwise Move or Advance in the movement phase."?
(Land Raiders would have an Assault Transport rule or keyword.)
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2020/04/26 09:26:25
Subject: A highly specialized Genie appears - you may make the rules for 3 units actually good
Cynically everything can be fixed by sufficient points reductions - I think however some units have some more fundamental problems.
I agree the predator is bad - but thats just because 175 points for (theoretically) 6 buffed up autocannon shots and 2 lascannons with a 11 wounds (so degrading), T7/3+ defensive statline is a joke. Knock it down towards 130-140 points and it would still be boring (because new stuff gets loads of special rules baked in) but it would be respectable enough.
Same with the forgefiend - which at least gets a 5++. But the reality is a relatively small number of shots on base BS 4+ has a high probability of disappointment (in a world of many modifiers). GW made the decision long ago that the 5++ was a good trade for having lower WS/BS. But then they started throwing out 5++ saves as if they are nothing. So the daemon engine platform is just overcosted for what it is.
Similar story with Hellions. Right now, incredibly fragile, don't do much beyond die. Knock them down a couple of points though, and you potentially have great movement, shooting, melee. Just spam them everywhere.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
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