Switch Theme:

How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 19:09:44


 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them."
— Maor the Scarred, Siege-Champion of the Scargivers, Warhammer 40,000: Black Crusade
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy

That's a gross oversimplification of events. Yes, large swathes of the Mechanicum did turn but they didn't bring their Forge Worlds with them, and they had to find and build whole new Forge Worlds in Eyespace or the Maelstrom. The Imperium can mass-produce weapons and ammo for Loyalist chapters because of the huge amount of Forge and Manufactorum worlds. Need the gear to outfit a whole new Chapter, done. Need to replace the gear of another Chapter, done.
CSM don't have the power base to be able to do that. Plus the fact the Legions/Renegade Chapters are incredibly fractured entities, with even the more "stable" ones like the DG and WB still having internal conflicts, means that raiding and looting is very much a thing CSM do.
   
Made in au
Storm Trooper with Maglight







The_Real_Chris wrote:
They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.


The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guar infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparrison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual proffessionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an undersupplied CSM warband going to do when their favorite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 22:19:07


   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






The_Real_Chris wrote:
They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 21:59:31


~5600 build and painted 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Flip that question around and isn't it the same? How can a cultist possibly stand up to loyalist space marine once it gets close in. Same answer, just throw in as many bodies as it takes to do the job.

I mean, arguably, cultists have even less cohesion and less equipment than the typical AM army because they are just a ragtag band of cultists with scrapped together/captured equipment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 07:53:23


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy

That's a gross oversimplification of events. Yes, large swathes of the Mechanicum did turn but they didn't bring their Forge Worlds with them, and they had to find and build whole new Forge Worlds in Eyespace or the Maelstrom. The Imperium can mass-produce weapons and ammo for Loyalist chapters because of the huge amount of Forge and Manufactorum worlds. Need the gear to outfit a whole new Chapter, done. Need to replace the gear of another Chapter, done.
CSM don't have the power base to be able to do that. Plus the fact the Legions/Renegade Chapters are incredibly fractured entities, with even the more "stable" ones like the DG and WB still having internal conflicts, means that raiding and looting is very much a thing CSM do.


There are thousands of planets of devoted cultists and slaves in the eye of terror, the black legion very much has the ability to manufacture their ordinance, of course what they make has changed greatly over the years. Some CSM have no idea what they are doing but some of them are part of a great engine of war that could not work if it was picking at the carcass of the imperium.
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





The Black Legion is only united in two aspects:
1 - Serving Abbadon, which even then is tenuous at best considering as soon as the Rift opened the coherent effort of the 13th BC fell apart and everyone went off pillaging and burning things.
2 - They wear black somewhere on their armour.
Abbadon commands a lot of forces but they're split about 25% through pacts with the other Legions that get broken all the time and who are all actively working to dethrone him as Warmaster, 25% are his own Black Legion who still fight each other all the time, 25% are Renegades who NEED to ally with Abbadon to avoid being dead and the remaining 25% are Daemons who are only truly loyal to the God that spawned them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 14:51:39


 
   
Made in au
Storm Trooper with Maglight







Also Id like to point out that Black legion literally failed like 12 BCs before they eventually succeeded, and it was at the time of all these BCs the most organised, united and largest CSM force.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/15 22:50:37


   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy


Not borne out by the background at all.

The former Legions lost their home worlds and holdings post Siege of Terra. They never got the chance to calmly pack up their good stuff because they were pursued and harassed all the way to the Eye of Terror, where they were effectively quarantined.

We see this in stories set in the immediate aftermath, with the Legions largely falling apart as they warred over what resources they had left. This is why in the modern era they have an ostensibly lower technological base compared to Loyalists. When resources are tight, you maintain what’s easiest to maintain. Assault Cannons (barrels need changing after every engagement, tricky to service at the best of times) are dropped in favour of Reaper Autocannon. Anti-Grav stuff discarded entirely because they’re a total sod to maintain at the best of times.

As for the Dark Mechanicum? Yeah you get nothing for free. Ever. You want their services, you’re meeting their price. Could be souls. Could be a specific relic. Could be something incredibly esoteric. But you’ve bugger all choice in the matter. Whatever it is they’re charging, you better be able to cough up. And every other warband is in need of their aid too, and aren’t above waiting for you to gather the goodies then following your down the metaphorical dark alley.

This is where Chaos has the biggest problem. They don’t have the same logistical arrangements as the Imperium. Every warband is just a couple of disastrous failures away from extinction, either because they lose enough bodies and materiel, or because they’re weakened to the point the next warband makes a move, claiming their holdings and possessions.

This is why Fabius Bile gets away with his nefarious activities. He’s needed by everyone, whether they admit it or not. He can work wonders with even the mankiest gene seed, and even enhance your mortal followers, after a fashion.

Oh, and on geneseed? You want some purer stuff, you gotta go mess with Loyalist Astartes. You know. The guys with the better equipment. The guys with the better resources. The guys on a more or less equal footing to you.

Are you a fledgling band of Traitors, still in the process of scrubbing out your Aquila’s? Fingers crossed a more established warband doesn’t take you out for your gear, guns and geneseed. Because they can and will do it if they think they can get away with it. Sure, they could try to recruit you. If you’re lucky that’s what’ll happen, But hey, why recruit say, 10 new turncoats when you can harvest their geneseed and have a reasonable shot at gaining 20 new battle brothers instead?

In short? Chaos isn’t unified. Chaos is not carey sharey. They’re Pirates, vagabonds, scoundrels and thieves because they have to be. It’s every post-human for themself, even in the Black Legion where your position is determined solely by your guile and ambition. You want something, you pay for it, and it’s rare that you’ll have much power in the bargaining.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





They failed not a single BC, that's just a trash meme like "all Dark Angels are traitors" and "Magnus did nothing wrong".
1st was to get Drachnyen and secure Abbadons place as Warmaster. 100% completed and a win.
2nd was to place a curse on Belis Corona, am important Imperial dockyard. They did that.
3rd was to destroy the remains of a Saint who was prophesied to defeat the BL. The remains got destroyed, prophecy averted.
4th was to destroy the Fortress world of El'phanor and kill the Kromarch bloodline. Both done.
5th was to secure an alliance with Doombreed by wiping out 2 chapters. Victory.
6th was to kill a rival of Abbadon and subvert his warband. Rival got impaled on the Talon at the moment of victory.
7th was the Ghost War where Abbadon slaughter nearly the entire Blood Angels chapter, took loads of their gene seed and was only seen off when the Charcharadons showed up at the last minute. Pretty solid win.
8th was a colossal ritual to gain Tzeentch's favour. Abbadon got the favour and killed billions.
9th was when the Antecanis Massacre happened. Abbadon starves an important dockyard of its workers by razing Antecanis and butchering the population.
10th is very badly written but still the Iron Hands get their bricks flipped and Abbadon secures an alliance with Perturabo.
11th has Abbadon enslave thousands of Orks to do tests on their psychic power. Shenanigans ensue.
12th was the Gothic War where Abbadon ruins the Gothic sector, steals 2 Blackstone fortresses and blows up the rest in the system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 23:49:15


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The whole topic is akin to how can batman beat superman. With that being said (and mostly stated to steer away the "realism" people) Im not sure that they do.

While CSM are indeed a elite power armor force they tend to lose in most publications not focused on them. But, being a elite force, they are handled much the same way marines are. And to answer that, Marines dont lose to guard.

A more probable answer as to why the guard doesnt win most encounters with the spikey boys is because the CSM are still a rapid insertion shock trooper force. For attrition warfare chaos turns to renegade guard or throngs of cultists/demons.

A CSM strike upon the IG will likely be to cut command lines and communications/leadership.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:

12th was the Gothic War where Abbadon ruins the Gothic sector, steals 2 Blackstone fortresses and blows up the rest in the system.


I do not call Abaddon a failure but neither is he a total success.

Abaddon was going for all 6, got 3, then lost 1 back to the Imperials (and getting his Planet Killer flagship destroyed and needing to be rebuilt) before ending the war with 2 Blackstone Fortresses in his hands. I would call that a failure considering the amount of time and resources invested and him ultimately calling off the effort to get the rest. 2/6 isn't good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 12:00:24


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Still better than none, and he inflicted heavy losses on an entire Imperial Battlefleet.

You know, this needs a thread of its own I think

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Gothic War lasted 21 years and that's all Abaddon had to show for it in the end. Yes, he got 2 Blackstone Fortresses and that was better than nothing, but compared to the original objective of 6, it was a failure.

Compare in contrast, the Necrons devastate the Orpheus Sector in less than 1 year, and recently the Nurgle aligned Chaos forces devastate the Charadon sector, again in less than a year. Abaddon took 21 times longer to do the same thing...and even then did worse because the Gothic Sector survived his war, whereas the Orpheus Sector was dissolved back into wilderness space by the Imperium.



 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This is where Chaos has the biggest problem. They don’t have the same logistical arrangements as the Imperium. Every warband is just a couple of disastrous failures away from extinction, either because they lose enough bodies and materiel, or because they’re weakened to the point the next warband makes a move, claiming their holdings and possessions.


This.

War is an expensive activity and most of the smaller warbands are basically operating on a raiding and looting system. CSM society within the Eye of Terror is a squabbling mess of internecine struggles and intrigues. Support is based around personal charisma or pacts based around traded services or goods. There isn't any mention of anything approaching a large scale organized logistics system like that feeding the Imperial Guard, and the more maintenance intensive stuff was discarded in favor of more reliable stuff like Reaper autocannons. A single bolt shell if you think about it is supposed to be a difficult to manufacture item in comparison to the lasgun's cheap and expendable power packs. For a really small warband, they might actually run a net loss in material if they expend their ammunition on cannon fodder. I can see such smaller warbands being effectively in thrall to the Dark Mechanicum forge world that is willing to supply them. Sort of the old "company store" policy.

This feel was deliberate and was mentioned in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex design notes by Andy Chambers. The whole purpose was to create a more archaic barbaric feel compared to the cleaner lines of regular Imperial SM.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 14:43:14


 
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





Yes, those Necrons with immensely advanced weaponry, immortal troops, entire worlds pre-seeded with hundreds of armies, and leaders millions of years old. Wonder why the forces of Chaos did worse than them.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

 OldMate wrote:

The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guard infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual professionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an under-supplied CSM warband going to do when their favourite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.


All that could be applied to many historical scenarios. For example WW2 the French had more and vastly better gear than the Germans. However the latter concentrated what they had and used it better. Astartes are primarily highly mobile, able to concentrate force like nothing else. Its no good having an amazing artillery park if an orbital strike and subsequent insertion wipes it out. Guard have many advantages but have to bring that firepower to bear. CSM have many disadvantages but are expert at frustrating the enemies ability to bring them to battle on their terms. So you ensure the engagements play to your strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.


Hence why the fluff doesn't show CSMs fighting attritional battles. When they lose is when they get cornered and the guard can use that attrition against them (until their morale goes).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 21:07:31


 
   
Made in au
Storm Trooper with Maglight







The_Real_Chris wrote:
 OldMate wrote:

The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guard infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual professionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an under-supplied CSM warband going to do when their favourite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.


All that could be applied to many historical scenarios. For example WW2 the French had more and vastly better gear than the Germans. However the latter concentrated what they had and used it better. Astartes are primarily highly mobile, able to concentrate force like nothing else. Its no good having an amazing artillery park if an orbital strike and subsequent insertion wipes it out. Guard have many advantages but have to bring that firepower to bear. CSM have many disadvantages but are expert at frustrating the enemies ability to bring them to battle on their terms. So you ensure the engagements play to your strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.


Hence why the fluff doesn't show CSMs fighting attritional battles. When they lose is when they get cornered and the guard can use that attrition against them (until their morale goes).

The issue i have with the France germany comparison is that germany was more industrialised, had a much much larger population and had amassed for a war, whilst Britain and France had essentially done the opposite. They didn't want to stumble into another ww1 so they did not take the steps necessary to be ready for war until it was too late. They thought Hitler was saner than he was, and that he was partaking in that ancient tradition of nationalistic sabre rattling. This gets forgotten every time people broach the subject, and i wish it would not be. I think a better analogue, if we're dusting off the old world wars is Germany vs Soviet union (who ground up 3/4 of the German army and airforce). They go pretty well at the start, but once the guard are able to bring their numbers the bear they never lose a battle. All battles are attritional, especially if your home base is nonexistant, or a mess of warring warlords and rearmament or recruitment is uncertain or dependant on sucsessful actions.
If this is your supply situation how many battles can you fight before you can't. Also how many troops can you lose before another warband thinks you prey?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 21:46:16


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 OldMate wrote:

The issue i have with the France germany comparison is that germany was more industrialised, had a much much larger population and had amassed for a war, whilst Britain and France had essentially done the opposite. They didn't want to stumble into another ww1 so they did not take the steps necessary to be ready for war until it was too late. They thought Hitler was saner than he was, and that he was partaking in that ancient tradition of nationalistic sabre rattling. This gets forgotten every time people broach the subject, and i wish it would not be. I think a better analogue, if we're dusting off the old world wars is Germany vs Soviet union (who ground up 3/4 of the German army and airforce). They go pretty well at the start, but once the guard are able to bring their numbers the bear they never lose a battle. All battles are attritional, especially if your home base is nonexistant, or a mess of warring warlords and rearmament or recruitment is uncertain or dependant on sucsessful actions.


Which is why many CSM warbands are just basically doing piracy and raiding, with no real territory held for "Chaos" until recently with daemon Primarchs establishing little kingdoms for themselves and their gods after the opening of the Rift. That's why it was called the "Long War", though I personally think that's a bit of self deception for many CSM trying to convince themselves they are fighting some long guerilla warfare campaign against the Imperium. They smash and grab and do damage, but for overall little strategic military goal, unless you count enacting mystical rituals or doing things to gain the favor of the gods for the warband's champion(s) a goal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 21:35:12


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: