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Look dude. I get it. You’re just here, for reasons best known to yourself, to argue. Not debate or discuss, and we’ve seen you on more than one occasion just invent stuff for the sake of that odd need to disagree and argue.

Remember the context of these recent exchanges. It’s not “just how special are Marines”. It’s “why did The Emperor decide post-human killing machines were necessary”.

Shock, awe, getting the job done as swiftly as possible. Ideally by displaying such ludicrous military strength that many worlds would capitulate, and even when they didn’t it wouldn’t be a protracted conflict, but one over and done with in a short space of time.

So I forgot to add the /S to my post. My "joke" was in reference to an old Vietnam movie, where a character talks about a soldier being worthless because he is unable to perform in the bedroom, or concieve children. It's part of that wonderful 80s machismo that infected so many war movies.

I think Ventura says something like it in Predator, "I wouldn't trust that on a broke dick dog" or something.

Point was, a bad joke about how a soldier is worthless if they are unable to make their anatomy function properly. Astartes are involuntary celibate. Either parts are removed, or parts no longer function. Point is, Space Marines cannot make baby space Marines.

Or the implants render them asexual and sterile.

We’ve never really heard of an Astartes having the urge/desire to hop on the good foot and do the bad thing. That in itself doesn’t make them incapable, or necessarily unwilling.

But…not do they need to reproduce. That’s not their purpose. And if could be that their Genhancements alone alter their DNA enough for speciation to have occurred, meaning even if they’re not firing blanks? They simply can’t get a homo sapien sapien pregnant, as the two gametes involved are no longer compatible.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I forgot to add the /S to my post. My "joke" was in reference to an old Vietnam movie, where a character talks about a soldier being worthless because he is unable to perform in the bedroom, or concieve children. It's part of that wonderful 80s machismo that infected so many war movies.

I think Ventura says something like it in Predator, "I wouldn't trust that on a broke dick dog" or something.

Point was, a bad joke about how a soldier is worthless if they are unable to make their anatomy function properly. Astartes are involuntary celibate. Either parts are removed, or parts no longer function. Point is, Space Marines cannot make baby space Marines.

Dont call astartes involutary celibates... They know perfectly what will happen to them when they are "recruited" with 9/10 years.

Even if they dont know how to read is cannon that they sign a 5000 pages medical document before hand

Vatsetis wrote:


You are "factually right" only if someone accepts the sophistic nature of your statement.

I dont.

Defining Spears as a Pointy stick is a complete fallacy.... And ussing spearmen effectively in a military setting needs proper training... Peasant militia spearmen were decimated during almost 500 years in western europe by heavy cavalry until proper infantry tactics and training were introduce during the late middle ages.

And since producing a single astartes requires many resources (100 candidates, old tech, etc) it is not a mass produce AK, its stil a boutique car/ weapon even if you have the extra rare golden version.

You don't accept my statement, then you proceed to explain exactly why my statement is factually accurate.

Bravo mate.

Astartes are a luxury car / golden gun to a guardsmen, I said that. But they're the dirt-smeared peasant with a fresh-hewn spear to the professional heavy cavalry of the custodes. I'm not sure what's not getting through here, but you seem to be having trouble with analogies and relativity in general.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


You are "factually right" only if someone accepts the sophistic nature of your statement.

I dont.

Defining Spears as a Pointy stick is a complete fallacy.... And ussing spearmen effectively in a military setting needs proper training... Peasant militia spearmen were decimated during almost 500 years in western europe by heavy cavalry until proper infantry tactics and training were introduce during the late middle ages.

And since producing a single astartes requires many resources (100 candidates, old tech, etc) it is not a mass produce AK, its stil a boutique car/ weapon even if you have the extra rare golden version.

You don't accept my statement, then you proceed to explain exactly why my statement is factually accurate.

Bravo mate.

Astartes are a luxury car / golden gun to a guardsmen, I said that. But they're the dirt-smeared peasant with a fresh-hewn spear to the professional heavy cavalry of the custodes. I'm not sure what's not getting through here, but you seem to be having trouble with analogies and relativity in general.

Heavy cavalry also didn't stop being relevant because infantry got better, they remained relevant and able to perform battle-winning manouevres well into the Early Modern period. Infantry quality actually dropped during the late 16th and 17th centuries, yet heavy cavalry continued to decline.

What killed heavy cavalry was socioeconomic changes making them unsustainable (same reason the infantry also got worse in the same period). By the Napoleonic wars, really only the French cuirassiers could be considered true heavy cavalry if you squint funny, and they were a rare prestige unit.

Obviously socioeconomic factors tend to disadvantage simple, cheap solutions like pointy sticks a lot less.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Engage professional eye…..

Vastestis is yet to respond to anything I’ve posted.

Cherry picking?

 morganfreeman wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


You are "factually right" only if someone accepts the sophistic nature of your statement.

I dont.

Defining Spears as a Pointy stick is a complete fallacy.... And ussing spearmen effectively in a military setting needs proper training... Peasant militia spearmen were decimated during almost 500 years in western europe by heavy cavalry until proper infantry tactics and training were introduce during the late middle ages.

And since producing a single astartes requires many resources (100 candidates, old tech, etc) it is not a mass produce AK, its stil a boutique car/ weapon even if you have the extra rare golden version.

You don't accept my statement, then you proceed to explain exactly why my statement is factually accurate.

Bravo mate.

Astartes are a luxury car / golden gun to a guardsmen, I said that. But they're the dirt-smeared peasant with a fresh-hewn spear to the professional heavy cavalry of the custodes. I'm not sure what's not getting through here, but you seem to be having trouble with analogies and relativity in general.

Perhaps my IQ is low, sorry... Yep you have enligtenment my with your analogy, its magnificent. Thanks mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


You are "factually right" only if someone accepts the sophistic nature of your statement.

I dont.

Defining Spears as a Pointy stick is a complete fallacy.... And ussing spearmen effectively in a military setting needs proper training... Peasant militia spearmen were decimated during almost 500 years in western europe by heavy cavalry until proper infantry tactics and training were introduce during the late middle ages.

And since producing a single astartes requires many resources (100 candidates, old tech, etc) it is not a mass produce AK, its stil a boutique car/ weapon even if you have the extra rare golden version.

You don't accept my statement, then you proceed to explain exactly why my statement is factually accurate.

Bravo mate.

Astartes are a luxury car / golden gun to a guardsmen, I said that. But they're the dirt-smeared peasant with a fresh-hewn spear to the professional heavy cavalry of the custodes. I'm not sure what's not getting through here, but you seem to be having trouble with analogies and relativity in general.

Heavy cavalry also didn't stop being relevant because infantry got better, they remained relevant and able to perform battle-winning manouevres well into the Early Modern period. Infantry quality actually dropped during the late 16th and 17th centuries, yet heavy cavalry continued to decline.

What killed heavy cavalry was socioeconomic changes making them unsustainable (same reason the infantry also got worse in the same period). By the Napoleonic wars, really only the French cuirassiers could be considered true heavy cavalry if you squint funny, and they were a rare prestige unit.

Obviously socioeconomic factors tend to disadvantage simple, cheap solutions like pointy sticks a lot less.

Woa, what an insightfull post... Are you a Doctor in Military History???

I feel embarrassed by my previous post. :(

Custodes are the adults to the relative infants that make up Space Marines. Each Custodes has lived in, fought in, and won a veritable lifetime's worth of a standard fully fledged Astartes. Even most captains, excluding Dante and the 1k+ crowd obviously. But by the age most Astartes are given the title of battle brother or SGT, they still have yet to fight in a likely 100th of the battles a Custodian has. Even the "younger" Custodes such as Ser Walken of Valarian, has by the by his scant few hundreds of years, earned deed names equal and beyond an Astartes Captain. Bjorn, Dante, and Gman, are among the few who can honestly say they've fought more than the Custodes.

Dante is basically old enough to be a Custodian at this point, Bjorn has been put into a dreadnaught, and Gman is a Primarch. Maybe Maloc? But that's a Chapter Master.

Golden Bolter Porn its really the BDSM version of regular Bolter Porn. Wikes!!

Next time I kill a Goldie on the tabletop with my Nazarenos It will make me extra happy.

We can also look to the very intentional hierarchy of Imperial Armies.

At the lowest tier, you have the PDF. Numerous, but with not a lot of care given to their arms and training. Primarily, their role is one of deterrent. Enough to dissuade entirely opportunistic attacks and keep the civilian population in line. Theoretically able to hold the line long enough against most insistent foes until the next tier can mobilise. Which is of course…..

The Imperial Guard. The true backbone, staggering in their scale and the diversity of forces available. Can be deployed en masse to simply swamp enemies - provided their own command structure remains intact.

Somewhere between the two we have Adeptus Arbites, as a specific department. Their Fortress Precincts are entirely capable of resisting the PDF by design, and their warriors better armed, equipped and trained by the PDF again entirely by design. Why? If a Governor goes rogue, the Arbites can form a solid core of Imperial Control, even should the majority or even entirety of the PDF turn traitor. And once again ideally long enough for retribution forced to be dispatched and deployed.

Sisters of Battle are the next tier, and like Astartes sit somewhere outside the usual chain of command. A planet with a Convent again has a core of theoretically entirely incorruptible and therefore loyal troops to maintain order and defence should Something Awful Happen.

Astartes are of course the ultimate sanction. The force most able to get in and get the job done against elements internal and external. Stronger, faster, better armed and equipped, capable of self arranged interstellar travel.

The Imperial Navy is again something of an oddity. They’re separate from the Guard, to ensure rogue Guard regiments have no easy means of moving off-world, but don’t really have a standing infantry force of their own to go rogue themself, or resist a determined boarding assault to reclaim the ship.

The Inquisition sit outside of all of that, but have the absolute right and authority to commandeer PDF, Arbites, Guard and Navy assets. That organisation is of course self-policing to some extent.

But standing over all of those? You have the Custodes. The absolute best the Imperium has to offer. They’re the ones who can slaughter a rogue Chapter or butcher rogue Guard regiments etc.

It’s all part of the wider Imperial strategy to stop anything on the scale of the Heresy happening ever again.

And yes, I did leave out the Ad Mech, Knights and Titan Legions. That’s because Mechanicus assets are kind of an empire within an empire, with their own plans and agendas.

Custodes can't do gak. Ant enough of them they would easily loose to the guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You got this all wrong custodes are vertually worthless as a military force as they are so few the imperium real strength is the imperial navy and the imperial guard. Simple as these are the 2 strongest military in the imperium.

Quite incorrect.

The Imperial Guard relies heavily on its command structure. With the usual notable maverick element, the line troopers are trained not to use their initiative.

Custodes annihilate their commanders, and that regiment is neutered.

Essentially, as you move up the tiers/hierarchy, each is well disposed to deal with those below them should the need arise,

Nonsense. The comand structure like any army is built with redundancies. Besides the guard outnumber custards 1 billion to one custards can not hope to compare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides this sounds like goalposts moving in a fight imperial guard vs custodes. If all guard and all custodes are present then custards lose easily.

No goal post moving involved.

The Imperial Guard don’t really have command redundancies built in as you claim. Yes new Commanders will likely be selected from the Regiment’s surviving officers (senior or not, ref Valhallan 597th). But that still takes time.

Give it a good gutting, and the line troops (not generally noted for acting on initiative, again by design) are left bereft of orders. And given the Custodes won’t be there alone? The other forces arrayed will quickly quash the target regiment - or even just issue an order to stand down, depending on where the corruption actually lay.

And yes, Custodes can, will and have done that to Chapters of Marines. As they’re not fussy about such things.

Now. Are there going to be many situations where it’s a Custodes vs Guard Command? Probably not, no. That’s not really the Custodes jam or role.

How do you do dare to compare the goldyes demigods to bases humans.

Heresy!!!

And besides, there wont be any fight at all,since bases humans in 40k are designed to fell asleep when they get a glimpse of Custard armor.

So even a single Custodes can defeat a trillion of sleeped guardsmen abd women.

(Im sure some people will think the info in this post ia cannon)

Custodes also have their own fleet, and so would nearly effortlessly crush the entire Imperial Guard in some nonsensical 1v1 that Boosykes is proposing for that reason alone, being that the Imperial Guard are completely reliant upon the Navy for air transport, superiority, and logistics.

The Imperial Guard, while immense and the backbone of the Imperium, is completely planet-locked and rely extensively on the Imperial Navy for support. The Custodes (and Astartes) do not.

This is ignoring the fact that teleportation technology is so omnipresent among Custodians that they could pretty much decapitate the entire command apparatus of the Imperial Guard very quickly and efficiently.

And none of this detracts from the intentional hierarchy/tiering of the overall Imperial War Machine, where the next tier is inherently well placed to put down the previous tier should the need arise.

Perhaps not on a wholesale, galactic stage. But on a theatre to theatre scale? Absolutely.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Custodes also have their own fleet, and so would nearly effortlessly crush the entire Imperial Guard in some nonsensical 1v1 that Boosykes is proposing for that reason alone, being that the Imperial Guard are completely reliant upon the Navy for air transport, superiority, and logistics.

The Imperial Guard, while immense and the backbone of the Imperium, is completely planet-locked and rely extensively on the Imperial Navy for support. The Custodes (and Astartes) do not.

This is ignoring the fact that teleportation technology is so omnipresent among Custodians that they could pretty much decapitate the entire command apparatus of the Imperial Guard very quickly and efficiently.

This is MP level of demagogy, are you member of some country government perhaps? , congrats.

All (many) of the Astartes and Custards fanboys always resort to "but our Navy"... Which is not manned by superhumans (mainly) so this argument actually underlines how irrelevant their forces are actually in the setting.

Obviously under your own selected arbitrary criteria Custards will not only win against the IG, but also Ctan, Old ones, Goku, The beattles, doctor Manhattan, etc

I feel defeated. :(

Vatsetis wrote:

This is MP level of demagogy, are you member of some country government perhaps? , congrats.

All (many) of the Astartes and Custards fanboys always resort to "but our Navy"... Which is not manned by superhumans (mainly) so this argument actually underlines how irrelevant their forces are actually in the setting.

Obviously under your own selected arbitrary criteria Custards will not only win against the IG, but also Ctan, Old ones, Goku, The beattles, doctor Manhattan, etc

I feel defeated. :(

Seethe.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And none of this detracts from the intentional hierarchy/tiering of the overall Imperial War Machine, where the next tier is inherently well placed to put down the previous tier should the need arise.

Perhaps not on a wholesale, galactic stage. But on a theatre to theatre scale? Absolutely.

That's not intentional at all. That would imply that the Imperium was constructed in a sane manner, which it is not. It's an incredibly dysfunctional society.

Custodes could not defeat the Imperial Guard if it was each organization vs the other. The Imperial Guard could bury each Custodian in multiple Leman Russ tanks.

Hecaton wrote:


That's not intentional at all. That would imply that the Imperium was constructed in a sane manner, which it is not. It's an incredibly dysfunctional society.

Custodes could not defeat the Imperial Guard if it was each organization vs the other. The Imperial Guard could bury each Custodian in multiple Leman Russ tanks.

They'd kill the entire assembled Imperial Guard with a single bombardment actually, assuming they could fit on one planet.

One of these organizations is self-sufficient, which is to say it has its own fleet. The Imperial Guard is not that organization. It is a completely planet-locked force without the Imperial Navy to support it.

Just because you mention the same BS once and again it dosent make more sense. It just shows the weakness of your position.

Yes, Custard Navy will defeat AM non existing navy... Well, if you can defeat something that dosent exist like Santa.

Custards can also defeat Dinosaurs, mithological creatures, hopeless aliens without space tech, they are also the best in defeating nonnexistent plots agaist the throne, etc.

Custodes are reaching the level of power of the brother Bezzos star fleet.

You’re again deliberately confusing the point.

Custodes, like Astartes, have their own fleets. Now, I’m not sure if their fleet capacity is limited/restricted in the way Astartes. But the point remains, if the Custodes, for whatever reason, wanted or needed to eradicate a Regiment? They can go for orbital bombardment, or presumably, even full on Exterminatus, rendering a ground war entirely moot. And not having their own fleet assets, there’s bugger all the Imperial Guard Regiment marked for destruction could do about it. Well. Except die. And horribly so.

It doesn't even matter if the Custodes lose because by Imperial law its heretical to record any battle that Custodes participate in as a loss.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re again deliberately confusing the point.

Custodes, like Astartes, have their own fleets. Now, I’m not sure if their fleet capacity is limited/restricted in the way Astartes. But the point remains, if the Custodes, for whatever reason, wanted or needed to eradicate a Regiment? They can go for orbital bombardment, or presumably, even full on Exterminatus, rendering a ground war entirely moot. And not having their own fleet assets, there’s bugger all the Imperial Guard Regiment marked for destruction could do about it. Well. Except die. And horribly so.

Sure, Custodes Always win!!!

You were right, I was wrong.

Have a nice day.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re again deliberately confusing the point.

Custodes, like Astartes, have their own fleets. Now, I’m not sure if their fleet capacity is limited/restricted in the way Astartes. But the point remains, if the Custodes, for whatever reason, wanted or needed to eradicate a Regiment? They can go for orbital bombardment, or presumably, even full on Exterminatus, rendering a ground war entirely moot. And not having their own fleet assets, there’s bugger all the Imperial Guard Regiment marked for destruction could do about it. Well. Except die. And horribly so.

The Imperium has bunkers that can survive orbital bombardments; there's a reason Abaddon had to yeet a blackstone fortress at Cadia.

In 40k orbital bombardments don't render ground wars entirely moot. Maybe that's not realistic, but it's how it is. The Custodes would have to go down there and deal with the IG eventually, and then they'd be drowned in bodies and tanks.

Not at all.

Cadia was a Fortress World, and a significant one. And Abaddon wanted it destroyed, in a way only a Blackstone Fortress, once corrupted, can achieve.

By no means do all worlds have that level of defences. And the Guard simply aren’t going to have a huge amount of stuff left post bombardment. And nearly sod all left post Exterminatus, because that’s what Exterminatus does.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not at all.

Cadia was a Fortress World, and a significant one. And Abaddon wanted it destroyed, in a way only a Blackstone Fortress, once corrupted, can achieve.

By no means do all worlds have that level of defences. And the Guard simply aren’t going to have a huge amount of stuff left post bombardment. And nearly sod all left post Exterminatus, because that’s what Exterminatus does.

Uh huh. So how do Custodes deal with a Guard regiment on a Fortress World?

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not at all.

Cadia was a Fortress World, and a significant one. And Abaddon wanted it destroyed, in a way only a Blackstone Fortress, once corrupted, can achieve.

By no means do all worlds have that level of defences. And the Guard simply aren’t going to have a huge amount of stuff left post bombardment. And nearly sod all left post Exterminatus, because that’s what Exterminatus does.

Uh huh. So how do Custodes deal with a Guard regiment on a Fortress World?

Asking some Dakkanaut friend to write the outcome???