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 Eldarain wrote:
Deathwatch marines that perform the role of scouts in a FA slot would be very cool though.

They'd also be the perfect choice for the special Shotguns they get.

Speaking of Shotguns, they're far too expensive. 2 points would seem right on the money.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I prefer a 3 man inceptor squad with plasma to hell blasters. Free deep strike is nice

Are you playing with the turn 1 Deep Strike restrictions?

They are kind of better for turn 2 anyways. Realistically they are only going to shoot once unless things are going really well for you. So waiting for the perfect target is okay for these guys I think. Think of it kind of like a really expensive sion squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.

It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.

It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.

I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.

It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.

It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.

I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...

The issue is it doesn't function as an Assault transport like it should and it gets stuck by a single Termagaunt assaulting it. Durability is a wash basically.

 grouchoben wrote:
I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.

Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.

What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?

seems like a solid prediction. playtesters have said that orks are going to have a real impact and are going to be a very strong melee army - and DW best units play very well against them - you may not even need to pay CP to DS aggressors, orks HAVE to come to you and if you position aggressors wisely, they might just have to run right into a double shooting blizzard of bolter fire. Bringing enough units to screen them from getting assaulted might be important though depending on what tricks they have to get units into range turn 1 (you don't want a unit of aggressors getting surrounded), so Guardsmen allies for the bodies might be important. Not for CP farm which I assume is going to be gone shortly, but just for the units they can add to your army - which is how allies should be working. Then again, it might just be a naturally winnable match-up anyway that doesn't need it.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Guardsmen allies for the bodies might be important. Not for CP farm which I assume is going to be gone shortly, but just for the units they can add to your army - which is how allies should be working. Then again, it might just be a naturally winnable match-up anyway that doesn't need it.

What a fine day that would be! I totally agree, guardsmen are still an excellent ally choice for DW regardless of CP farming, bringing board control, cheap bodies and great AT.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.

It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.

It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.

I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...

The issue is it doesn't function as an Assault transport like it should and it gets stuck by a single Termagaunt assaulting it. Durability is a wash basically.

That's but one issue. For its points, it's extremely fragile.

I'm sure this has been discussed, but after looking back a few pages didn't see it so will reiterate.

What are people doing for serious AT in their lists?

I do like the possibility that a nerf and horde Orks might change the current knight meta, but what are you guys doing right now?

1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.

So no real love for 2 ven dreads with lascannons sitting under the watchful eye of a Dominus Aegis watch captain (also helping reroll ones). maybe also with a small unit of vets with 2 missile launchers, stalker boltguns and a pair of stormshields (can use tempest shell strat for some mortals too). Lot of points though.

The Dominus Aegis doesn't help them though does it? I remember it specifying Infantry but I could be wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Dominus Aegis doesn't help them though does it? I remember it specifying Infantry but I could be wrong.

Friendly Deathwatch models within 6", if I'm not mistaken.

 bullyboy wrote:
So no real love for 2 ven dreads with lascannons sitting under the watchful eye of a Dominus Aegis watch captain (also helping reroll ones). maybe also with a small unit of vets with 2 missile launchers, stalker boltguns and a pair of stormshields (can use tempest shell strat for some mortals too). Lot of points though.

I love them but it’s hard to find a flexible load out for them, I always seem to wind up with something too anti-chaff on a field of tanks or too anti-tank on a field of chaff. It would be wonderful if I could have a Lascanon and Assaultcanon combo but such is not to be.

Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.

I don't know about consensus. I've seen players who praise the 5 Intercessors+1Aggressor squad and the 5 Intercessors+4Hellblaster+Inceptor squads. To me the clear winner is:

5 Intercessors, SIA Auto Bolt Rifles (or SIA Bolt Rifles, see this thread for the debate)
4 Aggressors, Auto Boltstorm Guantlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
1 Inceptor, 2 Assault Bolters
298 points

T5, advance and shoot, fall back and shoot, on average 54 shots @ 18" (or 92 when you stand still) and 8 powerfist attacks in combat.

Keep within range of the mandatory Watchmaster for an effective overwatch or a devastating anti-infantry output, use as a reasonable melee threat in a pinch.

Cilithan

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.

Entirely depends on the role you need them to play.

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.

I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:

1 Unit
5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors
4 Aggressors
1 Bolter Inceptor

2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor

I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.

Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.

What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?

In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.

 Captain Garius wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.

I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:

1 Unit
5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors
4 Aggressors
1 Bolter Inceptor

2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor

I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.

Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.

What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?

In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.

You can DS Hellblasters? That sounds spicy.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.

Buy 1 box of aggressors. They are superb in Fortis teams imo. My most common teams are:

Simple 5-man team with rifles
5-man rifles and Hellblasters, DS'ing
5-man assault bolters with a single aggressor for one of the most mobile troop options in the game (with spicy dakka)

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed, but after looking back a few pages didn't see it so will reiterate.

What are people doing for serious AT in their lists?

I do like the possibility that a nerf and horde Orks might change the current knight meta, but what are you guys doing right now?

Hellblaster Fortis teams are the most common go-to and for good reason. 5 30 inch plasma rifles backed by a healthy 20 wound bullet sponge that can wing a couple bolter rounds to finish off that damn target that survived on 1 wound. 270 points per team, but worth every point.

I feel like Contemptor dreads run a close second. You can teleport them within 9" of the target and get massive STR14 melee attacks with -3AP. My favorite thing is to drop them next to enemy tank foramtions and watch the panic.

If you like forgeworld models, the Xiphon interceptor is freaking evil for what it does to heavy armor.

 Weazel wrote:


You can DS Hellblasters? That sounds spicy.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.

Sounds like you'd enjoy the aggressor builds. I strongly suggest going with the auto bolt rifle in this build over the rapid fire option. This unit will benefit from the Aggressor buff by allowing you to advance and shoot without penalty, and you'll want to advance - Aggressors are slow as molasses.

I prefer using multiple 6 man teams lately, but I can't say enough good things about the big 10 man with an Inceptor added. It maximizes stratagem usage and does a lot to help get those Aggressors to a spot where they can double fire to full effect.

Question on how the mixed unit rules interact with the Riever Grapnel Launcher. Does having a Riever with that piece of gear allow an Intercessor squad to use the flanking deployment rule? Or does it only allow that when the entire unit has Grapnels?

Sterling191 wrote:
Question on how the mixed unit rules interact with the Riever Grapnel Launcher. Does having a Riever with that piece of gear allow an Intercessor squad to use the flanking deployment rule? Or does it only allow that when the entire unit has Grapnels?

Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.

 ChargerIIC wrote:


Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.

I was inquiring about the capacity to innately deep strike on the table's edge, not the capacity to ignore vertical distance. The wording on that part is unit, not model.

Sterling191 wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:


Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.

I was inquiring about the capacity to innately deep strike on the table's edge, not the capacity to ignore vertical distance. The wording on that part is unit, not model.

All models must be equipped with grapnel launchers to benefit from the alternative deployment method. As a mixed unit will consist of at least 5 intercessors who cannot take them a mixed unit will not have access to this rule. For reference note the different wording on page 73 vs 77.

 grouchoben wrote:
1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.

I think there is a problem for the vengeance bolts firing against tough vehicles. i.e. you need to walk or jump out of the Rhino / Blackstar, and it can't rapid fire if you DS. It has only 18" range so the Rapid fire is 9", and DS you need to put the unit more than 9" away from enemy units.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.

I think there is a problem for the vengeance bolts firing against tough vehicles. i.e. you need to walk or jump out of the Rhino / Blackstar, and it can't rapid fire if you DS. It has only 18" range so the Rapid fire is 9", and DS you need to put the unit more than 9" away from enemy units.

This is absolutely right - but throw them in a rhino and you're golden.

I'm a sucker for the Corvus. I know it's not optimal, but I love the thing. It also lets you get to where you need to be. Otherwise I tend to run 6-man SB squads in razorbacks.

But yeah, my exmple was optimal: mission, doctrine, watchmaster, best ammo type. The point was, if you can manage that, your anti-horde unit can also double as anti-tank. There aren't many units in the game that can say the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, even with -1 ap instead of -2, the same setup nets you 10.4 damage on a pred, and 6.9 on the knight. Still very tasty, and much easier to achieve (DS).

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.

DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.

Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?

Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.

Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.

I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.

That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That makes them the perfect DS candidates.

It's tough to fit everything in, but I've still been trying to make a way to get in lots of Deathwatch troops, the 32, and then some Scouts + something for tanks.

Speaking of Scouts, isn't anyone else annoyed they're not an option? They could've easily just given a whole squad an additional to movement or charge or something and then they could've been a FA choice or something.

I feel sorry for you. Sounds like a WAAC meta. I'm very fortunate that people in my meta play only single faction lists, no beta strike restriction, and like to have fun as much as win. Many of the things you hate have worked wonders for me. My favorite is DS vet squad with Sb/SS and frag cannons. Also like auto intercessors with 5 aggressors backed be watchmaster. These units were MVP during my last tournament. Tabled my first 3 opponents and didn't even worry about objectives.