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I am sure that there is a reason that people use them, I just can't figure it out, what use do side sponsoons on a leman russ have?

More heavy bolter shots when you need them, which is good considering IG BS. And there are times when you need those shots over the battle cannon, or when the cannon's been destroyed.

The concensus from a lot of the Dakka lifers seems to be that HB sponsons are no good. I don't see how two Heavy Bolters for 10 points can be seen as a waste.

Considering that Eldar players seem willing to spend 20 points on Vectored Engines to partially mitigate an Immobilized result, I don't see why spending 10 points to triple your firepower after a Weapon Destroyed result is a bad idea.

I also think there's a number of times where you might be better off shooting the H Bolters. For example, if you want to take out hordes that are spaced out, particularly after a move, the H Bolters will serve you better.

I think it depends how you use your Russ.  I find that Russ work best when they remain somewhat stationaty and blast hard targets as they come at you.  I usually take just a hull lascannon on mine, simply because I find that usually whatever took out your battlecannon is going to be more afraid of a lascannon than heavy bolters.  I use 3 heavy bolters on my Demolisher, because of the short range on the main gun and the benefit in Cities of Death (where I usually use the Demolisher).  The battle cannon in my opinion is best used from far away.  I've tried the moving line of Leman Russ and against a lot of armies it will always get smoked.  But since the 3 Heavy Bolters and the Lascannon are about even in points cost it seems like it depends how you want to use the Russ.  Armoured Spearhead =3 Heavy Bolters, Static Bunker = Lascannon.  At least that is how I see it.

Sponson bolters are not a waste at all. They are a very good upgrade for a solid tank. Some people argue that you need to keep the points on a russ to a minimum, and I generally agree. However, a basic russ with a single heavy bolter is effectivly put out of the game 1/3 of the time when glanced and 2/3 of the time when pinned. Adding the 10 point upgrade and you still have a deadly tank when the battle cannon is blown off. Also, as previously mentioned there are times when it makes a lot more sense to shoot the heavy bolters than the battle cannon. Generally this is vs small squads of nasty 4+ save guys, or when you have to pick off that last marine with the lascannon.

So the next question is: Hull Lascannon or Hull HB? I am pretty sure I will go with the Hull HB and also drop the additional 12pts for the heavy stubber as well so that if I A. lose my battlecannon or B. Need to take out small numbers of models I have the firepower to do it.

This is for an armored company list so I think that I will have enough other tank killing strength (especially with Anti Tank shells on my Tank Ace and Command Tank) to dish out anti armor

Moving BattleCannon = missing by 4"-6" a lot of the time. So when you need to change your tank's position, when you're moving onto the board from reserves, or when a juicy Tank Shock opportunity (ie no PF in unit) presents itself - its' nice to lay down 9 HB shots rather than scatter 4-6" with the Cannon.

Not to mention shooting spaced out hordes or spaced out units in cover.

It's just too bad that the kit comes with a HLC instead of HHB. I haven't had a go at magneting the hull mount on mine yet...

That's an easy conversion if you want to do it permanently... I've never magnetized it, but I think that'd be pretty straightforward too.

From where do you get the extra hull heavy bolters? I traded for a couple of extra sponson bolters, but I have 3 Russes so I still need one...

Hey happypants, I've changed my mind: sponson and hull HBs suck! Do you wanna trade me yours?

Ohhh, hmm. Good question. I don't really know, I have so many kits laying around, so many spart bitz, I forget where I got it. I think maybe from a Demolisher that I put Plasma sponsons on?

If you had to, you could scratchbuild a pretty slick looking H Bolter. They're pretty blocky on the basic Russ kit, you could probably do better if with plasticard and tube.

hehe i laugh at people who don't use thier sponsons. lets face it, the first thing your gonna loose on a weapon destroyed result is the cannon because of IG having a worse BS than marines and the fact it is a marine killer.

 

so you loose the cannon, now you can move and fire your hull LC, HB sponsons and your stubber-it's a predator anihilator with better armor. it also incidently keeps the tank moving and shooting all game, earning its points

If youre going to go with sponsons, go with a matching set.

In other words, using the hull lascannon and HB sponsons is a tad stupid.

All there with HB.
It rhymes so repeat it over and over again.

All three with HB.

Agreed. The cost of 3 HBs is the cost of a single hull lascannon. And Russes aren't for zapping vehicles usually.

The only time you need an LC on a Russ is in an Armoured Company. But it turns your 150+ pt tank into a single-shot BS3 unit every turn you use it. Only really useful vs Monoliths/Russes/LandRaiders really. Maybe vs 2+ save TMCs or DPs as well. But a couple of Armoured Fist squads with LCs would serve better.

I wouldn't bother with the stubber though. 5pts/HB is a good deal. 12 pts for a single lower S, worse AP weapon is not. At least on a Russ.

PHS goes on Hellhounds and Chimeras that can use them every single round, and where it increases their firepower by a lot more proportionally.
HH: template + 6 shots vs template +3 shots. Chim: 9 shots vs 6 shots.
Russ: 12 shots vs 9 shots - not as impressive an increase.

uh actually the stubber is better than a storm bolter, it has the same strength longer range and more shots-all very important for IG shooting  the lower AP value really doesn't matter since most fo the time your fighting MEQs anyway.

 

the reason you want the hull LC over a HB is to keep the tank effective at killing everything. if you go with the 3 HBs and stubber it gives you 12 glorious shots at the same range but it can only really kill infantry. thats both good and bad. depending on what else is in your list. if you have lots of other AT in the list tied up in troops or other areas than by all means the 3 HBs/HS is a better build.

 

hate to break this to you mughi3, but that is exactly why you do not want the lascannon heavy bolter combo. Guard is an army that can afford to specialize... (where did I hear that from... HBMC) Tanks kill infantry, infantry kills tanks. The three bolter combo is only taken because it costs exactly the same as that lascannon. That 12 point stubber costs almost as much as the three bolters combined. The points are better spent elsewhere.

Other than side sponsons on an armored company list or the executioner (whatever the twin linked autocannon version was called) I don’t see them as being useful. You’re either firing the ordnance or you’re moving to avoid something/get into a better firing position.  I could see them on an executioner as that would give you multiple HB shots. Otherwise those sponsons will be wasted as you’ll be firing the ordnance or moving too fast.

The only other exception could be the demolisher with  plasmas or meltas, but thats not stock kit on a Leman.

The stubber isnt bad, but I am sure there is a plasma gun somehwere you would rather take than a stubber.

Nope, after all these years and two editions of 40K 3 HB is still the way to go. Its actually a steal when you compare it with heavy wepons squads. You get a ordnance weapon for basically nothing in that respect.

besides, the demolisher is the first thing to go. it happens frequently enough to warrant the extra HB's.

The lascannon is a waste, especially with the new rules for what weapons fire on the tank.

I always take 3 HVy bolters on the thing. I like it better cause it gives me more shots. HB are also more cost effective at taking out marines than a las cannon because a lascannon is more expensive. It also is a way to fight armies that have spread out or set up in a way that a scatter will miss totally.

I agree with the other people in here that it sux there is no hull HVY bolter in the box. =(

Now, on an Exterminator you *do* want a PHS in addition to your 3xHB. But only because you'll be taking BS4 on that tank, and you'll get to shoot all those multishot weapons every single turn since there is no cannon on it.

A PSB is definitely never worth taking on an IG tank. 2 pts more gets more shots and more range.

Ok, *possibly* on a Hellhound (since the Inferno Cannon is only 24" anyways), but I'd still prefer the PHS. I suppose if I *really* couldn't find those 2 extra points to shave elsewhere, I'd accept a PSB on a HH.

I just wish I could take either on a Sentinel; MuL+PHS, AC+PHS, or HF+PSB would be a huge improvement over the usual "oh, I only hit with one shot..."

I've modeled the hb's to all my sponsons on both of my Russes, using the left over hbs after equipping my demo w/ plasma cannons.

They are well worth their small pt. value.

Posted By happypants on 11/27/2006 6:40 AM
So the next question is: Hull Lascannon or Hull HB? I am pretty sure I will go with the Hull HB and also drop the additional 12pts for the heavy stubber as well so that if I A. lose my battlecannon or B. Need to take out small numbers of models I have the firepower to do it.

Heavy Bolter, all the time. The Lascannon doesn't shoot the same targets as the HBs do, meaning that when you fire the LC at a tank the HBs are wasted and when you fire the HBs at infantry, the LC is overkill. Giving an anti-infantry tank an anti-tank gun doesn't make the tank versitile, it makes it confused.

And don't bother with the Heavy Stubber on a Russ. Not only will you hardly ever fire it (due to the Battlecannon), but it's a false economy. 12 points for 3 shots that have less power than the three Heavy Bolters you spent 15 points on.

Russes should rarley, if ever, go above 160 points (140 + Hull HB + Sponson HBs + Extra Armour). The EA is just so you can keep moving if you get stuck. Certain situations will require other upgrades (Smoke and RTMs in CityFight maybe, Searchlight if you have spare points), but keep at 160 and ignore the Stubber.

BYE

Posted By Strangelooper on 11/27/2006 3:25 PM
From where do you get the extra hull heavy bolters?

Buy a few Demolishers. Each kit comes with 2 HBs in addition to the metal MMs and Plasma Cannons. I just use those, and snip the lascannons off and put the HB on in its place.

BYE

Posted By mughi3 on 11/28/2006 11:33 AM

the reason you want the hull LC over a HB is to keep the tank effective at killing everything.

No mughi, the LC just confuses the tank's role, as I have described above. Very few units can tackle multiple targets in 40K. The limited 6 turns you have combined with the inane inability to split fire within units means that you have a small window to make your mark on the game - so might as well do one thing really well rather than a bunch of things in a mediocre fashion.

Russes kill infantry. That's all they do. Anti-Tank in a Guard army is best left to the Infantry, where the Lascannons go. If you really want a tank-killing-Russ, you get a Vanquisher w/Hull Lascannon.

BYE

Actually, in my list, I need the LC on my Russ. I run heavily mechanized, so not as much of a chance to get Lascannons elsewhere.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 11/28/2006 4:06 PM

Posted By mughi3 on 11/28/2006 11:33 AM

the reason you want the hull LC over a HB is to keep the tank effective at killing everything.

No mughi, the LC just confuses the tank's role, as I have described above. Very few units can tackle multiple targets in 40K. The limited 6 turns you have combined with the inane inability to split fire within units means that you have a small window to make your mark on the game - so might as well do one thing really well rather than a bunch of things in a mediocre fashion.

Russes kill infantry. That's all they do. Anti-Tank in a Guard army is best left to the Infantry, where the Lascannons go. If you really want a tank-killing-Russ, you get a Vanquisher w/Hull Lascannon.

BYE

 read my frikkin post!

you are wrong yet again

it depends on WHAT ELSE IS IN YOR LIST (as noted by the previous poster) like i said.

i build lists to take all commers(so do most everybody i know), i do not change  my lists.   meaning my opponant could be infantry heavy one time and vehicle heavy the next. and my armies reflect that more balanced approach.

a leman russ with LC and HBs is no differant than a pred annihilator set up the same way it is VERSATILE. meaning it can kill tanks, troops, monsterous creatures and terminators all while moving and shooting. also russ's d kill tanks quite well the battle cannon is a S8 ordinance weapon you get to roll 2 dice and take the highest when pening armor. it usually works better than a LC 

that being said if you have the las elsware in your list then the 3 HB/HS combo is very good for IG-more shots same range dedicated troop killer. eventually you will loose the cannon and if you have the extra points for a stubber it is worth it  for an extra 3 shots. beacuse it is more shots has range and is mobile, unlike an infantryman with a more powerful but shorter range and mostly immobile weapon.

 

 

i am above all a vehicle loving 40K player. all my armies in 40K are vehicle heavy save my deathwing. from experience, aside from the optional stubber IG russ's shoudl have-3 HBs, dozer blade, extra armor and track guards to make them more efffective in game.   as an example last weekend i played an IG player who didn't take the terrain mod(dozer blade) he immobilized 2 russ's behind terrain one right after the other. fortunately he did have track guards and kept his demolisher shooting by negating some of my glancing hits.

I would always include the 3 heavy bolters. They are incredibly cheap and give you something to do after a weapon destroyed result. Also, there are situation where these weapons will be more effective than the battle cannon. Despite the predominance of armor 3, there are plenty of high value armor 4 targets left in the game. Against these targets, the bolters will often be more effective than the battle cannon, especially if the tank is on the move. Against bikes, which come in small units, have invulerable saves, and are easy to scatter off of, the heavy bolter might be a better choice, especially against T 4 bikers.