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Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

Has anyone played a mechanized list, full of tanks ?
I'm curious to know how will my armored battle groupe play on the battlefield !

   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





I've got a few questions regarding IG vehicles, if anyone can help:

1) Which do you think are better - Scout Sentinels or Armoured Sentinels?

2) What weapon do you think is best on those Sentinels?

3) Are Leman Russ tanks any good?

4) What are good choices for Leman Russ loadouts? (In terms of both the top gun and also the front gun and sponsons)?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

My $0.02 on IG batitle tanks:

Leman Russes are adequate bit lackluster; however, the superheavies really shine.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I've got a few questions regarding IG vehicles, if anyone can help:

1) Which do you think are better - Scout Sentinels or Armoured Sentinels?

2) What weapon do you think is best on those Sentinels?

3) Are Leman Russ tanks any good?

4) What are good choices for Leman Russ loadouts? (In terms of both the top gun and also the front gun and sponsons)?


What I'm thinking:

1+2: I think that scout sentinels are good if you want to move them forward armed with flamers. You can scout them out in front of your army to deny deepstrike, or get them into cover. Armoured sentinels I would give a lascannon and use them like HWTs in your main line. I don't particularly like moving a weapon and getting a -1 to hit, at least not with a base 4+. Losing -1 on a 4+ model is far worse than on a 3+ model.

3+4: I think they can be. It depends what you want to do with them. Sitting back as a fire platform seems a waste, as artillery will always beat them in damage/points ratio. So I would take them as linebreakers, giving an advancing force a tough unit to support them. So I like mass flamers and stormbolters on the shorter range tanks, the demolisher and punisher. They can do a fair pit of damage in overwatch or if they get near the enemy, which is possible with their 10" movement. However, I think that the best Russ is now the conqueror. It is 17pts cheaper than a similarly armed battlecannon russ, losing only some range yet gaining a co-ax storm bolter. I actually think their cost is a typo they are so good. Take a conqueror, give it 3x flamer and an extra stormbolter: it comes out at 188. Quite a nice russ.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Horrible Hekatrix With Hydra Gauntlets




Has anyone looked into the Marauder Destroyer seriously? 300 points for 3 twin autocannon, a twin assault cannon and a twin heavy bolter on a T7 3+Sv 20W platform with the ability to bomb something once per game seems quite nice - it can also take eight krak-only missile launchers for an extra 160 points.

Seems like a cheapish way to fill out a LoW detachment for those juicy command points if you're already planning on one or two big tanks. It's not that shooty for the cost, but a 20-wound flyer can absorb a lot of punishment for your other units.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.

The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.

And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 17:21:16


The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Oh of course. You need to use infantry and tanks to support each other. You could always use some infantry to engage the enemy, then fall back with your russes. You lose a turn of shooting but you got overwatch so it isn't too bad.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Or you just bring a baneblade variant and fire when in combat anyways.

Baneblades want people to charge them and lock them down, because it makes them immune to enemy shooting while still being able to return fire.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

So far from the dozen or so games I've played with russes here are the things I've noticed:

The x3 heavy Flamers is no joke! 3d6 shots with -1ap has stopped assaults and does great on the offensive side.

Pask in a battle tank with lascannon and MM's is deadly. Dropped a stormraven by himself in 1 round of shooting. With him kitted out that way and his bs paired with ordering himself he can drop some big targets a turn.

Standard russes are pretty poor with their bs4. Most of the main guns struggle with hitting and not doing many shots. So if I have the hq slots open I try to make as many russes tank commanders as I can to get that bs3.

But I'm working on trying something else. Russes are expensive and do still take a lot of fire power. So I aim to run pask kitted out as he is above paired with 1 command battle tank with x3 Flamers and 1 standard battle tank with x3 Flamers. This way the command tank can order the standard russ and pask can then order the command tank and himself. This way the command tanks order isn't wasted. I was running 2 tank commanders and pask and the tank commanders orders were wasted as they couldn't order themselves. The bs3 is much better for their guns though.

As for hull weapons if you're running standard russes it's just better to go with that x3 Flamers. You're -1 to hit for moving and you've got a degrading profile.

Heavy bolters are alright as they just put out a lot of shots and that -1ap is nice.

Lascannons and Multi meltas are expensive so if you're using those it's best on pask or tank commanders and even then you may not want to move them much as tank commanders would be hitting on 4+ with hull and sponson weapons.

I've tried the plasma cannons and even if you have reroll 1's it's still too scary a risk. You're tank knocks itself down a profile if it blows up once and then can't use any plasma cannons the rest of the game. Your plasma is best brought from guardsmen or scions.

Only varient I haven't gotten to use yet is the punisher and demolisher. Exterminator got a nerf and autocannons can be brought else where, executioner is a risk even with orders, eradicator got -2 which is nice and ignores cover will probably become useful as I feel kicking units off objectives I cover will be difficult with that +1 to save, battle tank has been the most played and seems rather useful, battle cannon also out performed vanquisher just about every time.

I'm still looking to testing each russ out as much as possible.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

I agree with your comments about Pask. I used him for six games in a Plasma Executioner + PC with hull lascannon and he was OK but I avoided supercharging. Now I am using him in a Punisher + MM + hull lascannon as a gunline tank. Oddly enough, he survives about half the battles because the enemy gets totally distracted by infantry squads and scions.

The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





broxus wrote:
 Otto von Bludd wrote:
broxus wrote:
Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.


Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.

edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.


Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?


I use their scout move to get closer to the enemy yet out of LoS, and if that is not possible than at least forward and into cover. From there I can either move them to intercept aggressive assault units (I don't charge them, just get into flamer range and sit there, forcing them to deal with me or burn, ideally walking past them so they have to charge backwards to assault me dragging them away from my deployment zone) or head towards weaker backfield units to start wreaking havoc. 18 T5 wounds with a 3+ (in cover) is not THAT easy to remove and they are a pretty low priority target so I'm not really afraid of them giving up first blood. If they do get charged first turn then great, they'll bleed whoever charged them fiercely with over watch, then disengage towards the enemy deployment if possible, so the assault unit either has to chase after me or open up his backfield to conflagration.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

 JB wrote:
Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.

The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.

And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.


Still seems so odd that a tank isn't allowed to just fire or keep moving and crush the foot sloggers.
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 JB wrote:
Several posts have mentioned using Leman Russ tanks with heavy flamers to advance into the enemy deployment zone. It is a risky tactic because opponents will try to lock the tanks in close combat. If your heavy flamers don't kill all of the attackers in Overwatch, your tanks may not be able to fire for the rest of the game (as long as they are locked in combat and during your first shooting phase after a Fall Back move). Smart opponents will try to get their charging models into contact on multiple sides of your vehicle so that you will not be able to Fall Back. In 8E, the enemy does not have to charge the closest point on the target unit. His first model charging just has to get within 1 inch of the target by the end of his charge move. The other models in the unit only have to maintain coherency.

The key point is to support your tanks with other units to keep chargers away or at least prevent them from locking your tanks into combat for multiple turns.

And before someone mentions it, the normal AM orders do not work on vehicles so Get Back in the Fight is not going to help your vehicles to fire after a Fall Back move.


This is why I don't want to use the HF Russes; getting into melee is still very bad because you're locked out of shooting, and if you don't kill the assault threat with something else they will just chase your tank down and keep it locked down. Like you say, you need that bubble wrap still because unlike your tank, your infantry can "Get back in the fight!" after withdrawing. So what about the dual HF Chimera? Think about it, you almost do as much burning as the 3x HF Russ, BUT you are carrying a bubble wrap squad inside in case you need it. I'm trying to wrap my head around properly using this. Dual HF Chimera with Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad inside. If an assault threat gets close, the infantry disembark in front of the Chimera with Commander behind. They absorb the assault, withrdaw, Get back in the fight!, and then shoot with the Chimera. The only issue is you have to be 1 turn ahead of your opponent (I think) because of when disembarkation happens in the movement phase. Interestingly, Dual HF Chimera + Inf Squad + Platoon Commander probably costs about the same as a 3xHF Russ.

Also, if you think a good HF over watch will finish the assault unit off, (I think) you can wrap your infantry around your Chimera in such a way that any attempt to charge the infantry will force a multi charge into the Chimera triggering its over watch and protecting the infantry. Seems like a very solid combination to me as you can react to the strength of the assault unit with either a round of shooting plus a round of over watch, or a round of shooting, infantry blocking and getting back into the fight followed by another round of shooting all depending on how you disembark the infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 20:59:45


 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





If you want a linebreaker, flamer blaneblade is amazing for the job, amazing overwatch firepower, tough as nails, and can keep firing even if stuck in melee.

On the other hand, 2 Crassus Armored Assault Vehicles might be just as good (they cost about 250 each if equipped with 4 heavy flamers, and they also have the steel behemoth rule), plus they can transport 35 infantry models each.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

I think a hellhammer is much better than a baneblade. It has better stats and ignores cover, and the range isn't that bad.

The crassus looks awesome. It can fire after advancing, making them very fast. Just fill it with 10 bullgryn and some characters and it is a very nasty thing indeed.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in de
Sister Vastly Superior




Germany - Bodensee/Ravensburg area

I really, REALLY don't see the point in taking heavy flamer Russes when Hellhounds/Bane Wolves do the job so much better for much cheaper. 105 points gets you two flamers that move 12" a turn, one of which has -3 AP and wounds everything besides vehicles on 2+, while 110 points get you 28" of flamer threat range with a buffed up S6 D2 Heavy Flamer and a regular HF, which also explodes on a 4+ if it dies and dishes out a whole bunch of mortal wounds by doing so if you manage to get it close to the enemy. And unlike Russes they fill those Fast Attack slots you need for Brigade detachements for those sweet extra CPs.

If you take a single Russ then take Pask with a Punisher, give him a lascannon (not taking one with Pask seems like a massive waste, he is the only option to get a BS 2+ one which is more than worth the 12 points over a HB), HB sponsons and a storm bolter and you have a massive amount of infantry murder dakka. The gattling and the two HBs alone kill around 13 ork boyz a turn if they don't have cover, without even counting the stormbolter, while you can split-fire the lascannon seperately and trounce most vehicles with D6 damage if you roll a 2 followed by a 3.

That unit will DEFINITELY grab any opponents attention and keep it away from targeting artillery. If you want more Russes then I'd throw in Executioners, Punishers, Eradicators or LRBTs, ideally without commanders to save a bunch of points, commander-less Russes profit much more from Pask's orders point for point than commanders do, while particularly Executioners benefit massively from them if you get to overcharge without much fear. Tank commanders, amazing Pask aside, are pricy for what they offer and are not the auto-take many make them out to be IMO.

Keep Russes as cheap as you can while being as longer-range shooty as you can make them, Pask being the only exception (if you take any Russes at all he is a must have). THEN they are worth it IMO. Turning them into much more expensive, slower and less effective Hellhounds is not the way to go. Two heavy flamer sponsons alone is 34 points on them, while 3 is 51 points, on top of the main gun and 133/134 point base price, for a minimum of 205 points for the cheapest version of a full flamer Russ (Punisher with 3x Heavy Flamer), for only 5 points more you can get two much more effective dual-flamer Bane Wolves.

@Sentinels: As the others have already pointed out I would either take Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels or Lascannon/Plasma cannon Armoured Sentinels. Already planning to include 1-2 hellhounds/bane wolves in any list, I plan to include a lascannon armoured one for the flexibility as flank holding unit (extending the 9" deep strike protection and as a quite tough counter-charge/melee blocker unit if things go south, while getting a 2+ save in cover) while being much tougher than Lascannon HWS and getting that third fast attack selection without having to include a third hellhound. Also because the model looks awesome and it should reliably make its points back over the turns. Don't load up any upgrades on them besides the main gun, not even the sentinel chainsaw is worth it.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2017/06/25 23:12:09


Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer


- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

I do like the look of those Artemia pattern hellhounds. You pay 7 more points for a "2 dice pick highest" for the inferno cannon's hits. Not bad. I also like hellhounds for their explosive death powers.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What are the stats for the conquer's gun in 8th?
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Does the incinerator leman Russ not exist anymore?
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





broxus wrote:
What are the stats for the conquer's gun in 8th?


Same as a battle cannon but with 48". The advantage it has is the co-axial storm bolter which allows you to re-roll your to hit rolls with the cannon. It's also cheaper. Seems totally superior to the LRBT to me.

I'm inclined to agree that the Russ isn't the best platform for HFs, though I though it would be for a time. Chimera, Hellhound and Scout Sents all do the job better for less. I also agree about keeping it cheap, which probably means a lascannon and HB sponsons for me. Probably on the Conqueror, but what are all of your thoughts on the Annihilator? 3 Lascannons and 2 HBs sounds great even on a non Commander Russ.

 Trickstick wrote:
I do like the look of those Artemia pattern hellhounds. You pay 7 more points for a "2 dice pick highest" for the inferno cannon's hits. Not bad. I also like hellhounds for their explosive death powers.


Yes there seems to be little reason not to always run that variant if you want a HH.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 02:47:38


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran




Stockholm

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Does the incinerator leman Russ not exist anymore?


That one is only for 30k. Never been a thing in 40k.

~5000 points of IG and DKoK

I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting.  
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

 Aenarian wrote:
PUFNSTUF wrote:
Does the incinerator leman Russ not exist anymore?


That one is only for 30k. Never been a thing in 40k.


Too bad.
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Georgia

So i was looking over my book and I noticed for 42 Pts you get a bullgryn with your choice of shield and and a maul. For 45 points you get a Sentinel powerlifter who moves 9" with WS 4+, 6w, 3 attacks, with S10, -2 Ap, D3, and a 4+ armor and scout moves. Do i think its competitive, heck no but for just 3pts more tban a bullgryn I'd be willing to give powerfist AT-STs a try

Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k

The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns. 
   
Made in fi
Been Around the Block




One unit to note in this Flamer discussion is Crassus. The thing costs only 200pts+weapon so 268 with 4 H.Flamers. And since it has the unusual Unstoppable Behemoth rule, it can shoot its flamers in melee against assailants. It also has a rule that allows it to advance and still shoot.

And its a transport with capacity of 30. Not a bad deal at all for its role.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

Ways I use battle tanks with x3 Flamers is with advancing infantry.

I have a blob of 30-40 conscripts, behind them is 2-4 infantry squads with various loadouts.

Mixed in with the infantry is commissars and company commanders.

Behind that are the russes. So if the enemy gets close to assault my infantry, the conscripts absorb the charge and then fall back an inch leaving the opponent open for x3 H. Flamers. Plus another x3 H. Flamers as I usually have 2 battle cannon flamer russes paired together with pask following behind.

Now granted hellhounds are cheaper they also only have 2 Flamers over the russes x3 with a battle cannon. Not to mention each has their own uses. Russes seem to work better when supported by foot infantry or mechanized infantry. Where hellhounds being faster seem to work well with mech infantry going forward or with scion deepstrikes.

I've used the flamer russes against thousand sons twice, khorne daemons/marines, ultramarines, and drukari. Won every game and the flamer russes haven't disappointed yet.

 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran




Stockholm

PUFNSTUF wrote:
 Aenarian wrote:
PUFNSTUF wrote:
Does the incinerator leman Russ not exist anymore?


That one is only for 30k. Never been a thing in 40k.


Too bad.


Yeah. I use mine as an Eradicator because I like how it looks and nobody minds since it's visually distinct from the other ones. The Mars-Alpha hull is still by far the best one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ir0njack wrote:
So i was looking over my book and I noticed for 42 Pts you get a bullgryn with your choice of shield and and a maul. For 45 points you get a Sentinel powerlifter who moves 9" with WS 4+, 6w, 3 attacks, with S10, -2 Ap, D3, and a 4+ armor and scout moves. Do i think its competitive, heck no but for just 3pts more tban a bullgryn I'd be willing to give powerfist AT-STs a try


A Bullgryn has S7 AP-1 D2, 3 attacks (4 on the charge), a 2+ or 4++ save, M6" and WS3+ for 42 points.
A Powerlifter has S10 AP-2 Dd3, 3 attacks, M10" and 4+ save for 45 points

I would say that they are pretty even, with the Sentinel being a little better because it doesn't need a transport and a Chimera is 93 pts to transport 4 Bullgryns. But both seem pretty good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 12:12:42


~5000 points of IG and DKoK

I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

As for the superheavy talk - think about the Stormhammer. It is CONSIDERABLY cheaper (on the order of 15-20% cheaper) for essentially the same firepower and durability.
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





What do people here think about the Shadowsword? The new volcano cannon is extremely good at taking out enemy superheavies (it'll wound most on 2+ and the rest on 3+, which it gets to re-roll), and with sponsons it can still be pretty good against everything else, but with so much threat concentrated into "just" 26 wounds, there's definitely a risk that an enemy would go out of their way to alpha-strike it off the board. Especially if they do have a superheavy that they're worried about losing to it.

Of course, considering how much it would take to remove 26 wounds of T8/3+ in one turn (short of having a Shadowsword yourself), drawing that much aggro onto a single unit might be beneficial in its own way.

The most obvious consideration I suppose is local meta, since if the local meta largely lacks superheavies there's not much point to bringing one rather than a less specialized variant (or one more specialized to the local meta).
   
Made in fi
Been Around the Block




Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon will do average ~10,2 wounds on a non-titanic T8/3+ target which lacks any sort of inv saves. 4 lascannons will deliver 3,9 wounds. So firing all your antitank weapons from the SS will give you pretty decent chance of crippling one heavy tank per turn.

But now since FW has released IA:IG I see almost no point running superheavies without supporting vehicles. Salamander Command Vehicle will give one vehicle +1-to-hit and Trojan Support Vehicle will give rerolls to hit. And if you want to use them even with their squishyness, Sabre Platforms with Searchlights will stack +1-to-hit per Searchlight. With boosts like that you'd do almost 50% more damage!
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





One thing I was thinking of was having an array of 4-5 searchlights to support it. Only one searchlight would actually support the Shadowsword at a time, the others would support the rest of the army until the one supporting the Shadowsword dies. Since they're only 20 points each, and the "backups" are still supporting other units while they wait, they should be able to get their value back easily.

The idea here would be to use the redundancy to not only provide backups, but to discourage targeting the searchlights in the first place: if you kill one, another will replace it and the Shadowsword will still delete something. Against an enemy superheavy it'd be hitting on 2, wounding on 2 with a re-roll, and using a command re-roll to get rid of 1s on the number of shots is likely to be very much worth it.

Though I suppose another option would be to use a Salamander, and put some artillery batteries back there with it to squeeze some more use out of its aura.

A tech-priest would probably be a good investment with any Baneblade variant, since repairing 5-15 wounds over the course of the game could be very much worth it, especially if it can delay or prevent stat degredation.
   
 
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