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Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Did anyone else catch that you can move units out of combat as a normal move? No hit-and-run roll or anything, just move them out.

That sounds pretty frikkin amazing. I might be inclined to actually run my IG infantry as 10-men squads instead of blobs. Have any guardsmen that survived an enemy charge move out of the way (and run since they can't shoot anyway) then lay into the enemy melee with a whole bunch of FRFSRF from another squad or three. Rinse and repeat if there are any choppy guys left still standing. That opens up a whole new realm of tactics for shooty armies, fire and withdraw style.

I think the IG are going to do just fine in this edition.

 Psienesis wrote:
I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.


"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad 
   
Made in us
Reverent Tech-Adept






The rules for twin-linked and lascannons also make Vendetta gunships downright deadly to MCs and vehicles. I'd be curious to see how the artillery pieces, like Manticores and Basilisks, will fair.

The reserve rules are also very interesting imo. So at least half of the army has to be on the table, plus not everything can do reserves. But it looks like that some things can charge immediately after coming in from reserves. That's an...interesting tweak, which presents some interesting issues for Guard armies.
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





If the Trygon example is anything to go by, they'll need to roll a 9 on the 2D6 charge roll. A risky endevour, but I don't doubt assault heavy armies won't at least try it. They would probably be saving their Command Point re-rolls for that exact moment. What I'm not sure about is 'deep-striking' transports. Is disembarking from a vehicle over 9" from the enemy an easy way to cut that distance down before the charge?

It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 23:03:32


 Psienesis wrote:
I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.


"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
The rules for twin-linked and lascannons also make Vendetta gunships downright deadly to MCs and vehicles
It will sure help! GEQ get a 33% damage increase from TL weapons under the new rules, where MEQ get a 50% increase in damage output. This is due to the MEQ hitting on a 3+, meaning that instead of going from a 8/9 chance to hit, they have two chances to hit at a 2/3 chance. GEQ go from hitting 75% of the time to having 2 chances to score 50% of the time.

Taurux prime (assuming they hit on a 3+) will reap the 50% benefit from their guns. I'm willing to bet some orders also will give a +1 to hit.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
The reserve rules are also very interesting imo. So at least half of the army has to be on the table, plus not everything can do reserves. But it looks like that some things can charge immediately after coming in from reserves. That's an...interesting tweak, which presents some interesting issues for Guard armies.
It makes me a bit worried for vendettas. Do they start on the board? Will they be vulnerable on first turn? Will flyers be hard to shoot down?

In regards to the 'deep strike' assault, it will make placement more important. If your units are all clumped together, you can get assaulted and then consolidated into assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Humble Guardsman wrote:
It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.
Yep. Infantry surrounding a LRBT squadron sounds very thematic to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 23:26:10


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






KayTwo wrote:
I'm still worried about the lack of blast templates. How will the MoO work? The Deathstrike Missile launcher?


Oh man never even though about DSML

i hope its something absolutely ridiculous.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
while not being too hard to punch through dont forget armor saves and large pool of wounds.

im thinking with proper use of cover it wont be that bad.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?

If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. Since that doesn't look too hard to punch through at this point, I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.


As long as they are appropriately priced, it won't matter.
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 Humble Guardsman wrote:


It's clear that bubble-wrapping attractive targets with inexpensive infantry squads is going to be more vital than ever.


I think quite the opposite actually, bubble wrap will be far less important than it previously was. Not only will vehicles be far more survivable in melee but they will actually be able to fight back on their own. No longer will your Leman Russ fear a squad of tactical marines in melee, it will take those marines forever to do any damage rather than only needing 3 6s to kill your tank. That isn't to say bubblewrap is a bad idea, but it is far less important in 8th.

   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?
Lets run some math on it. Lets look at what an average set of weapons will do.
Weapon.......................Wounds Done.................Shots Until Dead
GEQ MG.......................1.167...............................6.87
GEQ AC.......................0.444...............................18
GEQ LC.......................0.875...............................9.14
GEQ LG.......................0.041...............................192
GEQ HB.......................0.333...............................24
GEQ ML.......................0.555................................14.4
GEQ SL.......................0.375...............................21.33
That's nearly 7 MG shots to wreck the annihilation barge. It would still take just over 5 vet MG shots to kill the barge. If the vets are within 6", then it will take
~4 MGs to wreck the barge.

Those are are actually tough nuts to crack. That's 24 different HB shooting at the barge before it wrecks. The balancing factor is that the vehicle gets weaker before it's gone.

Even the old say of Eldar scatbikes would have a hard time cracking this. It would take 16 different scatbikes (that are moving and hitting on a 4+, 12 if they are standing skill) to wreck the barge. Under the 7th edition rules, it takes 3.5 bikes shooting to wreck the AV11 vehicle. That means the vehicles are nearly 500% more resiliant to scat bikes! And that's just a transport....

 daedalus wrote:
If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
My guess is that the Chimera will be T6 as well. It's a reasonable guess to assume it will also have around 8 wounds. I'm guessing the Chimera will be a 3+ save.
The Taurox may only be T5. It might be T6 with less wounds. I'm hoping the Taurox will be able to move 12". I'm guessing the Taurox will be 4+ save.

The question is -- can units still fire out of the vehicles? Can you have 6 vets grabbing the lasguns on the chimera and 3 still pop out the hatch to shoot their melta guns? Can you still have 8 guys shoot out of a Taurox (2 fire points on each side of the hull, units getting split fire so can use all 4 fire points) I think that will be the real test of the vehicles. If your units can stay at near full effectiveness when in a transport, then they will be awesome. They will be a turtle shell around squishy troops. If they cannot shoot out, then the transports will just be that -- transports. Useful, but nowhere nearly as good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/18 17:30:21


 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 labmouse42 wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
So with the Necron Barge thingy being T6 W8 Sv4+, what's everyone thinking as far as their tankbusting at this point?
Lets run some math on it. Lets look at what an average set of weapons will do.
Weapon.......................Wounds Done.................Shots Until Dead
GEQ MG.......................1.167...............................6.87
GEQ AC.......................0.444...............................18
GEQ LC.......................0.875...............................9.14
GEQ LG.......................0.041...............................192
GEQ HB.......................0.333...............................24
GEQ ML.......................0.555................................14.4
GEQ SL.......................0.375...............................21.33
That's nearly 7 MG shots to wreck the annihilation barge. It would still take just over 5 vet MG shots to kill the barge. If the vets are within 6", then it will take
~4 MGs to wreck the barge.

Those are are actually tough nuts to crack. That's 24 different HB shooting at the barge before it wrecks. The balancing factor is that the vehicle gets weaker before it's gone.

That feels way more crazy durable than I was expecting, though I haven't actually ran my own projections yet. Out of curiosity, does that take into account the d6 wounds on the lascannon? What about AP modifications vs the 4+ save? Given that the ML and HB are basically swap one point of AP for one point of penetration, I'd think the numbers would be near identical.

Are those assuming average results? Maybe I just need to alter my expectations.

 daedalus wrote:
If that's an AV11 skimmer, I think we can expect other lightweight vehicles to be somewhat similar. I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me about my Chimeras now.
My guess is that the Chimera will be T6 as well. It's a reasonable guess to assume it will also have around 8 wounds. I'm guessing the Chimera will be a 3+ save.
The Taurox may only be T5. It might be T6 with less wounds. I'm hoping the Taurox will be able to move 12". I'm guessing the Taurox will be 4+ save.

The question is -- can units still fire out of the vehicles? Can you have 6 vets grabbing the lasguns on the chimera and 3 still pop out the hatch to shoot their melta guns? Can you still have 8 guys shoot out of a Taurox (2 fire points on each side of the hull, units getting split fire so can use all 4 fire points) I think that will be the real test of the vehicles. If your units can stay at near full effectiveness when in a transport, then they will be awesome. They will be a turtle shell around squishy troops. If they cannot shoot out, then the transports will just be that -- transports. Useful, but nowhere nearly as good.


I really hope you're right about the saves. Transports are going to be pretty interesting. I think they keep saying an article is going to come up about that soon. I think it would be the swift death of quite a few AM armies if they removed the fire point rules though. I'd probably still play them, but I'd play with much fewer of them.

I wonder how morale is going to work with squadrons now, or if squadrons are even going to be in the new edition.

Unrelated to vehicles:
Also, we haven't really seen melee weapons yet, but the "defender chooses casualties" bit makes me think that power blobs can become viable again. I guess that depends on how Priests and Commissars look like though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 17:53:25


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 daedalus wrote:
That feels way more crazy durable than I was expecting, though I haven't actually ran my own projections yet. Out of curiosity, does that take into account the d6 wounds on the lascannon? What about AP modifications vs the 4+ save? Given that the ML and HB are basically swap one point of AP for one point of penetration, I'd think the numbers would be near identical.
Sorry, ML was for missile launcher, and SL for the multi-laser.
They are identical when shooting at a dread. The 4+ going to a 5+ is not as big of a drawback as 3+ to a 4+, which causes it to go from 24 to 21.1 hits to wreck.
Part of the big reason for this durability increase is that STR 8 weapons are only wounding on a 3+.
You can look at my work here, likes 77-84. Please check and make sure I'm honest
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WTQyvPyRlR7fRzHuDLmybt9sR4bFyF0IXJV3Hn0MIdg/edit?usp=sharing
 daedalus wrote:
Are those assuming average results? Maybe I just need to alter my expectations.
Yes, they are average results. 2 lucky LC shots will still wreck a barge.
 daedalus wrote:
I really hope you're right about the saves. Transports are going to be pretty interesting. I think they keep saying an article is going to come up about that soon. I think it would be the swift death of quite a few AM armies if they removed the fire point rules though. I'd probably still play them, but I'd play with much fewer of them.
Agreed.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

I think your math is good. I hadn't considered ML=missile launcher in spite of the fact that it's by far the more common weapon. The numbers make much more sense with that in mind. I guess I just had Chimeras on the brain.

I guess vehicles really are tougher than they look. I wonder how point cost is going to reflect these changes.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 daedalus wrote:
I think your math is good. I hadn't considered ML=missile launcher in spite of the fact that it's by far the more common weapon. The numbers make much more sense with that in mind. I guess I just had Chimeras on the brain.

I guess vehicles really are tougher than they look. I wonder how point cost is going to reflect these changes.
speaking of ML i wonder if taking upgrades is going to be worth it now.

always liked the look of a single missile rack on the top of my vehicles.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Wales

Hmm. I've always wanted to run a Guard army, and with 8th looking promising and Anvil Industry doing very nice "trench fighter" models, my dream of creating a British WW1 themed guard army might FINALLY become a reality...

374th Mechanized 195pts 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Cant wait to see what FW does for my Kriegers!! In regards to the OP's question, they almost had nowhere to go but up so I am betting they will be more competative, however the way to play will be COMPLETELY different. So I am excited to revisit how I build my units(how awesome would it be to work in MORTARs for god sakes!!)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 14:29:45


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
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Reverent Tech-Adept






So while not directly related to Guard, the rules for the Imperial Knights also seems to be fairly interesting. I find it interesting that the Knight is double the wounds of an LR tank.

I wonder if the Vanquisher cannon is going to be deadlier this time around, given the rules for Lascannons.

I really did like my Guard armor list with infantry and a Knight in tow, so I really love the changes so far.
   
Made in us
Reverent Tech-Adept






Does anyone know if close combat wounds still carry over in vehicle squadrons? Like if one tank in a squad is stuck in close combat, do the wounds from that still carry over to the other tanks in the squad? Just wondering if they changed that up at all.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






Do we even know if vehicle squadrons exist in 8th?

“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” -- The Doctor 
   
Made in ca
Implacable Skitarii




Canada,eh

What does everyone think about the Taurox now being 20 shots Gatling Cannon and 8 shots Volley gun? What an anti infantry beast.




I am Blue/White
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Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 Gibblets wrote:
What does everyone think about the Taurox now being 20 shots Gatling Cannon and 8 shots Volley gun? What an anti infantry beast.
It looks sweet. The question will be all about the point costs.
The new vehicles article suggests that the Taurox will be at least a T5 with 6 wounds, and likely tougher.

Edit : The new rules about CoD gives some indications of interesting things.

It suggests a grenade is D6 shots. Does that mean that the grenade launcher might be a useful weapon for a change?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/22 17:28:55


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




USA

I'm very excited for the new IG but the biggest thing I worry about is the potential increase in price of special and heavy weapons like meltaguns and LC. The more those cost, the less tanks and artilleries we can take, and we need anti-veh/MC badly in 8th.

Also I hope priests still grant fearless.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Very excited for 8th.

if extra Armor grants 2-6 more woulds will it be playable?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Just finished repairing my vulture and vendetta, cant wait to see the rules for our crazy number shots fliers. Between IG and the orks we are going to need buckets of dice

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:01:13


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Lax Imperial Governor




Inside Yvraine

If they want extra armor to work in a similar fashion to how it did before, I imagine the simplest way would be for it to increase the wounds threshold for suffering permanent damage, ie if a vehicle were to lose 1bs at 8 wounds, extra armor would make it so that a vehicle only loses the 1bs at 5 wounds, etc.

What I'm hoping for is camo-netting still giving a +1 cover save. That means Leman Russ will have a 2+ save by default.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:21:11


"They said to forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned? They said to forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war? Hold my drink." - Roboute Guilliman, 999.M41 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Crimson Devil wrote:
Do we even know if vehicle squadrons exist in 8th?
Possibly

the new fw leviathan machina malifcawhatever says a "unit" with this rule.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

No reason they wouldnt. Plus with split fire most of the downsides go away and the benefits might actually make it worth doing.

Would be sweet if we could drop pod in full dread talons now since there is no scatter on the drop pods.

Honestly I just hope they give DKOK meaningful rules and platoons instead of getting worthless bonuses and a 10 point increase......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 20:28:47


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

I don't expect them to get rid of vehicle squads.
   
Made in us
Reverent Tech-Adept






Mainly I hope that wounds accumulated on one unit in a vehicle squad don't spill over to other units. Remember when one tank would get attacked in melee and all the other ones would blow up too because of the shear amount of wounds inflicted on that one tank? That's something I'd hate to see continue.
   
Made in de
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




Multiple damage doesn't spill over to other models, obly multiple shots/hits do. Stated in the weapons teaser iirc.





 
   
 
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