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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the Raider/Venom stuff is standard GW being 12~ months behind the curve and overcompensating as a result.

Players: "Raiders are bad, venoms are much better."
Also Players: "Venoms have problems versus Marines though. And as that's the whole meta now maybe Raiders are the way to go."
"Huh? Okay lets buff the raider and make splinter cannons do 2 damage. Problem solved. The players will love it."

So yeah - you heard it here first. Burna Boyz Meta coming soon.
   
Made in us
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So can we stop with the "I can't buy DE, so they aren't broken" arguement? It's so missing the point. There are currently 4 Start Collecting boxes for DE and three of their big character guy, at my tiny local hobby store. There are countless ones on EBAY and amazon. Focus on the argument, not the factors.


That's not the argument being made at all.

The argument being made, which, amazingly, does apparently need to be made, is that if DE were intentionally made broken to sell models, then GW would have stocked enough dark eldar to keep any of them in stock up until anyone actually got to read the new broken rules.

And, cherry on top, they PROBABLY would have gone ahead and made the only new model in the entire codex intentionally broken, instead of a transport that has already been sold to players in the old start collecting box and both the transport+troop bundle boxes they made in 7th ed and now also in the new combat patrol box.

Dark eldar have been totally out of stock since before anyone got a full picture of their rules, and you could not have chosen a single worse unit to make intentionally busted to push sales except for possibly Kabalite Raiders in Venoms. Raiders are the Techpriest Dominus of drukhari. Everyone who plays the army has had to purposefully avoid buying bundle boxes if they didn't want to end up with at least 3.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
ccs wrote:
Karol wrote:
But that is more or less what happens on every table that has terrain build for 9th ed. And I must say I feel good, when designers say, that the core problem for DE and Harlequins is their super efficient transports.

Then on the other side, If I see it, then why didn't GW.


GW has a plan (despite any current supply issues) concerning how many Raider kits they aiming to sell to the average Drukhari player.


"clearly gw is displaying their diabolical mad genius 9 billion D chess plan to make raiders (the kit they've included in every bundle box ever for drukhari that every drukhari player has seven of and that you CANT EVEN fething BUY from games workshop currently) so OP that everyone....um.....buys...them."

.....naw dawg theyre just like 10-15pts undercosted. Calm down, its OK, fluoride and 5G didn't do 9-11.


Nothing to calm down about, it's just a casual observation made over decades of miniature gaming experience (with GW & others).
The companies have sales plans that don't involve game balance.

All you existing players with your multiple raiders?
GW got your $ already. IE; You aren't the customers they give a damn about when they plan on how many raiders to sell.
And clearly they do intend to sell more raiders as they're a key part of the list & imagery of the force.
So who're they planning to sell these raiders to? New players of course....

Current supply problems - there's a great # of things you can't buy from GW right now, not just raiders. And this was the case well before the Drukhari codex hit the shelves. Obviously this supply issue didn't affect how they planned & wrote the codex.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





ccs wrote:

Nothing to calm down about, it's just a casual observation made over decades of miniature gaming experience (with GW & others).
The companies have sales plans that don't involve game balance.

All you existing players with your multiple raiders?
GW got your $ already. IE; You aren't the customers they give a damn about when they plan on how many raiders to sell.
And clearly they do intend to sell more raiders as they're a key part of the list & imagery of the force.
So who're they planning to sell these raiders to? New players of course....

Current supply problems - there's a great # of things you can't buy from GW right now, not just raiders. And this was the case well before the Drukhari codex hit the shelves. Obviously this supply issue didn't affect how they planned & wrote the codex.


Then why didn't they make Lelith the best succubus?

   
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Well anyone who wants to start DE is going to buy 4-6 raiders, unless in the next 2-3 days something crazy happens and they suddenly costs 100+pts.

By the metric of people owning 6000pts in to multiple armies, practicaly everything that wasn't bad for multiple editions is going to be owned already by veteran players. I have a feeling though, which could be wrong, that GW is very much focused on the new buyers and not the people who just buy the codex, because they already have all the other models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs 797783 11121333 wrote:
What makes you think they didn't?
You've said earlier that you've noticed that some forces seem almost pre-built.
That x units + x# transports + ?? Fit nicely into 2k pts is not a coincidence.
GW has a plan (despite any current supply issues) concerning how many Raider kits they aiming to sell to the average Drukhari player.


Then it would mean they made broken rules on purpose. I get it why they may want to do it for factions they don't care about, or which they don't want people to play. But as you said, and I think I said it too. The DE lists that exists right now. Looks and feels as if someone sat down, wrote a list, wrote down what they want the list to do, and then put specific rules on models and add point costs. But that seems very unprofessional to me. Or professional in the sense head of olympic wrestling division writing rules in a such a way, that they greatly favour people from his country.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 17:09:16


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Well anyone who wants to start DE is going to buy 4-6 raiders, unless in the next 2-3 days something crazy happens and they suddenly costs 100+pts.

By the metric of people owning 6000pts in to multiple armies, practicaly everything that wasn't bad for multiple editions is going to be owned already by veteran players. I have a feeling though, which could be wrong, that GW is very much focused on the new buyers and not the people who just buy the codex, because they already have all the other models.
^I think this is very true. I haven't had to purchase much for my SMs since 6th editon. I bought a few more Transports in 7th (Gladius) and some Attack Bikes in 8th (good investment for 9th! ). Most of what I've purchased in the meantime has been for the sake of collection rather than gaming efficacy.

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Dude...I legit traded my raiders away. about 2 years ago because all I was doing was spamming venoms since forever ago. Every DE player I know has an over abundance of venoms and maybe a few raiders. 2/3...

They wanted to sell their combat patrol box. It comes with 2 raiders if you want to build them that way...I built 4 raiders out of 2 of them. I didn't realize it was a trap at that point - all I could think was how happy I was that raiders were going to be worth it. I did not realize at that point they were going to be OP as fck at that point cost but they are. It's sad too. Because raiders will certainly be nerfed...but stuff like DT will probably escape serious nerfs.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Someone paid $330 for 15 wracks - today.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144033440592?hash=item21890fe350:gIYAAOSwYnNglrzm

Looking at the listings the demand is on the infantry which is even more out of stock than the raiders have been:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&LH_ItemCondition=4&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=04210-8510&_dmd=1&_fosrp=1&_sop=16&_nkw=40k+dark+eldar+drukhari&_pgn=3&_skc=100&rt=nc

   
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Damn, that is hilarious. Glad I can print wracks for a quarter per model XD

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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 the_scotsman wrote:


Damn, that is hilarious. Glad I can print wracks for a quarter per model XD

Probably someone buying it from themselves to trick people into buying it when they repost it.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
You can say that all you want but when I'm looking at a single unit of Termagants putting 18 wounds across two Raiders, I'm gonna be rethinking "good weapon profiles".

Yes, 210 points of models can almost but not quite kill an 85 point model with average rolls. Clearly, this is a reliable winning strategy...

Also, how are those 90 shots dealing 18 wounds across 2 T6 4+ armor models?

Single minded annihilation for 180 shots.

If you add Kronos then it gets up to 20.4 wounds, with Symbiostorm 27.

So that's 210 points, 2CP, and it assumes that your opponent doesn't use a -1 to hit strategy. It also requires you to be within 18" of the raider so it gives them an entire turn to move where they like.

Yeah, this isn't exactly a winning move.
It requires a trygon (155 points) to really pull off. It's a powerful Strat but it's a turn 2 play and while it might kill 2 raiders. A -1 to hit cuts it to 1.


You can strategic reserves now, I have not look at it in a while so correct me if I am wrong but you can use the Lictor Stratagem now for 1CP to pull them from reserves to the lictor instead.
18" gun is the issue. Might even be a turn 3 play from SR. Jorm can do with lictors or raveners true. Trygon is the way I do it an I can not run a complete ass hive fleet. Levi for the win. Anyways this is really off topic. Nids are hella bad right now except for the forgeworld update which clearly under-points some super beasts. Hopefully they will be getting a new codex within the next 6 months.

Want to talk about laughable...A tyrranocyte costs more than a raider lol.


I played nids up until start of 9th and I always used a 20man Devilgants, never was an issue for me, now you don't need a pod or Trygon at the cost of more CP though. They were one of my most favor units, i even started to make some out of Hormagants b.c they look cooler, sorry for bad pic it is a old one.
[Thumb - Devilgants.PNG]


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Port Carmine

I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?

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 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?


It seems so. Some people just can't handle being the underdog.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?
There are many groups of people who play for different reasons.

And there certainly is a group of players who hop from army to army buying whatever is 'best' at that moment and dumping it for the next hot thing when the meta changes.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky


Fools and their money! Don't they know that this stuff will be back in stock eventually? But they gotta get it NOW and get those tournament wins in before the nerfs come down. Then all of this will be right back on eBay for dirt cheap. Oh, the hilarity!
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?


It seems so. Some people just can't handle being the underdog.

"Underdog" is absolutely not the word to use for armies like Genestealer Cults and Grey Knights but okay.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Karol wrote:

Then it would mean they made broken rules on purpose. I get it why they may want to do it for factions they don't care about, or which they don't want people to play. But as you said, and I think I said it too. The DE lists that exists right now. Looks and feels as if someone sat down, wrote a list, wrote down what they want the list to do, and then put specific rules on models and add point costs. But that seems very unprofessional to me. Or professional in the sense head of olympic wrestling division writing rules in a such a way, that they greatly favour people from his country.


So now we've moved to "it's all a conspiracy because the guy wrote the Drukhari codex also plays Drukhari and wanted to give himself broken rules"?

For feths sake.
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?

Yes, some people just want to win, other people just don't want to lose. Back when I was unlucky I started Necrons because they were OP, I liked the aesthetic as well, but I would have continued playing Craftworlds if they were equally strong. I was getting tired of losing with Necrons in 8th as well, the first 18 months of 8th was pretty brutal and 15 months in I started experimenting with Craftworlds and would have switched if CA18 had not been better.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
Karol wrote:

Then it would mean they made broken rules on purpose. I get it why they may want to do it for factions they don't care about, or which they don't want people to play. But as you said, and I think I said it too. The DE lists that exists right now. Looks and feels as if someone sat down, wrote a list, wrote down what they want the list to do, and then put specific rules on models and add point costs. But that seems very unprofessional to me. Or professional in the sense head of olympic wrestling division writing rules in a such a way, that they greatly favour people from his country.


So now we've moved to "it's all a conspiracy because the guy wrote the Drukhari codex also plays Drukhari and wanted to give himself broken rules"?

For feths sake.

Wouldn't be the first time a rules writer gave themselves an advantage.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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 Ordana wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?
There are many groups of people who play for different reasons.

And there certainly is a group of players who hop from army to army buying whatever is 'best' at that moment and dumping it for the next hot thing when the meta changes.


If you sort that eBay list by date Page 26 is about before people knew the details of the book and people were still buying raiders.

5 of them sold on 2/14 and 8 on 3/20. Playtesters?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
"Underdog" is absolutely not the word to use for armies like Genestealer Cults and Grey Knights but okay.


GK are capable. GSC - who knows. There does appear to be some GSC player who went 5-3 this past weekend ( edit - same weekend as DAO ). Yes - small sample size etc etc.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:01:03


   
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 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?


Tons of longtime Comp players still have drukhari armies from back in fifth I guess.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?

Rules are a pretty big factor on when to buy things. Collectors usually intend to get everything it is just a question of when.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?
There are many groups of people who play for different reasons.

And there certainly is a group of players who hop from army to army buying whatever is 'best' at that moment and dumping it for the next hot thing when the meta changes.


If you sort that eBay list by date Page 26 is about before people knew the details of the book and people were still buying raiders.

5 of them sold on 2/14 and 8 on 3/20. Playtesters?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
"Underdog" is absolutely not the word to use for armies like Genestealer Cults and Grey Knights but okay.


GK are capable. GSC - who knows. There does appear to be some GSC player who went 5-3 this past weekend ( edit - same weekend as DAO ). Yes - small sample size etc etc.



RED = Most likely people getting ready for new book, DE was announce months before the book came out.

Also DE lost a lot of events this past weekend, if we keep seeing the decline in winrates and going about a 60% that should be fine after DT, Comp Edge, and Fly-fy are changed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:24:06


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You guys remeber that one obnoxious guy on here that was saying how he wrecks face with ynnari not because of them Being OP (souburst days) but because people need to learn to play and stop crying. He was saying how he would win with ynnari even if they lost double activation. You guys remember how he put his ynnari army on swap shop as soon as the new ynnari WD dex dropped? I member...

Some people just need to play the most "broken" stuff as a compulsion. I dont really get it. But man meta chasers are silly people. At least it makes getting cheap stuff on ebay when rules change and they drop their armies like its nurgles poop

In case this needs saying.. Lessons learned. . Just buy units you like for army you like and grow your collection organically.

Its frustrating that GW has moved to a wider scope of playtesting then ignores playtesting and feedback. Yet pretend they dont with Hand flailing rapid FAQs. Its such a bizzare paradigm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:56:46


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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Competitive players will generally play whatever gives them the best chance of winning. That's a rational decision when your priority is competition.

GW doesn't do serious playtesting, it's just a perk to offer influencers to get them on side. The program makes sense in that context. The objective isn't creating better rules.
   
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 Argive wrote:

In case this needs saying.. Lessons learned. . Just buy units you like for army you like and grow your collection organicaly.


I'm being asked by the Great Dakka Spirit of the Long-Suffering Eeyore to fill in here for a quick sec so pretend I add in something weird and possibly racist against some extremely niche eastern european subgroup like 'you can always tell a Clovnakh by the smell of their earlobes'

"but but but I got told this by the EVIL casual players and when I bought a 2000 point list of tactical space marine squads with flamers and missile launchers in Land Raiders, Hunter anti-aircraft tanks because my army fluff is a Black Templars anti-aircraft division, vanguard veterans on foot with powerfists and hand-flamers, and shotgun scouts in land speeder storms and now I can't win ANY games against the mean mean eldar players! They laugh at me and spit in my face every time they finish cruelly tabling me with their perfectly tuned competitive lists made up of

*checks watch*

2000 points of just dark technomancer wracks and 3 compedge razorflail succubi and drazar and 40 incubi in 24 dark lance raiders! I know last week when I was making this complaint all my opponents all had competitive harlequin armies but now they have dark eldar armies, oh, woe is me, why won't GW DO anything for the poor trodden-upon players who simply wanted to win, why won't the menace of horrible casual player monsters be stopped!"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Competitive players will generally play whatever gives them the best chance of winning. That's a rational decision when your priority is competition.

GW doesn't do serious playtesting, it's just a perk to offer influencers to get them on side. The program makes sense in that context. The objective isn't creating better rules.

" target="_new" rel="nofollow">

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:53:33


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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I think issues arise when people claim they are casual players but then just want to curb stomp deep down.

Everyone likes to win a fair contest. It feels good.

It gets weird when people deny this and pretend its not them. Wierd. Maybe Im just too old for this S*&^

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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 Argive wrote:
I think issues arise when people claim they are casual players but then just want to curb stomp deep down.

Everyone likes to win a fair contest. It feels good.

It gets weird when people deny this and pretend its not them. Wierd. Maybe Im just too old for this S*&^


If I had a quarter for every time the most flagrant, obnoxious cheater and rule-bender that I've had to frequently talk to and even tell to not come back due to their faked rolls, increasingly unbelievable "misremembered" stats and rules and dubiously added-up army points values was also the person who would the most loudly proclaim that their army was unfairly underpowered but they don't care, they embrace the challenge of playing a weak army and they're not some scum of the earth power gamer....

....well I couldnt' afford any 40k models that's for dang sure but I could probably buy myself a nice fast food breakfast at least.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 harlokin wrote:
I really don't get all the hopping on the Drukhari bandwagon. Rules are great right now (and will likely get gutted in a GW overreaction), but who the feth cares, are the rules that much of a motivating factor for people?


Harlequins weren't gutted, and they did and do the same thing as DE, only less point efficient and with fewer unit types. So maybe this is people thinking that GW will not nerf eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 797783 11121491 wrote:
So now we've moved to "it's all a conspiracy because the guy wrote the Drukhari codex also plays Drukhari and wanted to give himself broken rules"?

For feths sake.


I don't think there is a conspiracy behind anything here, or that who ever decided on the final version of the rules wrote them for himself. But you have to say there is a slight difference in how the point costs and units interlock, and how hyper efficient everything is in a DE list. there is no If I take A then I will be left with 60pts I can't spend on anything or if I take what I want the army costs 2025pts.

From what I understand the person who wrote the rules for eldar for years, no longer writes rules for GW. But if something happened in the past, there is always is a non zero chance of it happening int the future. But I don't think that is how it worked. It is more probable that some guy got a spread sheet from the Sales Departament telling him, we want DE players buy this amount of models in money, now get on it.

The design is very different comparing to the marine books where someone was doing a lot of copy paste stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 20:20:16


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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