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 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

The last sentence is demonstrably untrue, because like I said, most of their catalogue is just derpy stuff (minotaur artillery tanks, Ryza vanquishers, Praetor launchers, tarantula turrets, Stormblades, fifteen different Space Marine armour marks, etc). If their rules were designed to sell their models, then their rules would make their models really good! As it stands, though, a vast majority of their stuff is just kinda neat, and there's only a few truly broken things that slip through... just like with GW and its playtesting.

how goes the updating?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

The first part is because of how competitive gaming works, not because of Forge World - there are more models than Forge World models that are offenders here.

Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

They also include GW's OP units for a reason, and that reason is they're trying to leverage any and every advantage they can at the expense of fluff and fun, stopping just short of breaking the rules.

Yes, Forge World makes OP units. They also make UP units. I'd say throughout their entire history they're just as bad at game design as Games Workshop itself. But I play a Games Workshop game, so clearly that doesn't bother me.

There's very little of Forgeworld's stuff that's actually balanced, because none of it is playtested.

There are some units that are far and beyond above the power curve [Vulture Gunship, etc.] and some that are so astoundingly bad you wonder why they even bothered to make it [Macharius]. There are quite a few that are just strictly superior versions of existing units, [Repressor, Earthshaker Platform, etc.]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Top lists include Forgeworld for a reason. They don't play bit parts, the list plays around its Forgeworld contents.

They also include GW's OP units for a reason, and that reason is they're trying to leverage any and every advantage they can at the expense of fluff and fun, stopping just short of breaking the rules.

Yes, Forge World makes OP units. They also make UP units. I'd say throughout their entire history they're just as bad at game design as Games Workshop itself. But I play a Games Workshop game, so clearly that doesn't bother me.

I wouldn't call it at the expense of fun.

I had a lot of fun playing against an army with Gulliman and Leviathan Dreadnoughts and IG gunlines this edition, and a lot of fun playing against Riptide Wings and Wraithknights and Scatterbikes.

But it is a different kind of fun. I saw it as a challenge to overcome. It wasn't balanced, and would be pretty annoying if anything more than reputation and bragging rights were on the line, but it was certainly fun. There were two things I found actively un-fun; the Optimized Stealth Cadre and 'cron Air, because they really forced me to play defensively to mitigate their effects and were naturally hard to interact with, but I found ways to overcome both in the end.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There's very little of Forgeworld's stuff that's actually balanced, because none of it is playtested.

Thank you, this is the point.

The big thing with 8th pre-launch was the beta feedback from groups of experienced testers and tournament organizers. They were allowed to provide feedback on the content before it was launched. We, as a playerbase, had no such opportunity with Forgeworld.

8th edition was sold on the idea of an ongoing dialogue around balance, "the edition we asked for," and Forgeworld came in and just gakked all over it. I don't care if they make underpowered units, it's the overpowered stuff that's causing problems.

If we can all agree that the game should be as balanced as possible, doesn't that mean we should take a long look at banning Forgeworld, until some real playtesting occurs? Phrased differently, how can we have any faith that the game will be balanced, if GW is doing one set of balance, and FW, another?

Nope, not at all.

My corsair army has done nothing to you and my powerlevel based games have no bearing on your tournament games.

You wanna ban units, run a tournament. But trying to get everyone on board with banning really cool stuff because you don't like a subset of models is decidedly uncool.

(I know forgeworld can be a bit swing, recognition and alteration are always an option. For example, my corsair brace of pistols only firs d3 shots. I could roll a d6, but I am well within my right to not shoot the full number of shots.)

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nope, not at all.

My corsair army has done nothing to you and my powerlevel based games have no bearing on your tournament games.

You wanna ban units, run a tournament. But trying to get everyone on board with banning really cool stuff because you don't like a subset of models is decidedly uncool.

(I know forgeworld can be a bit swing, recognition and alteration are always an option. For example, my corsair brace of pistols only firs d3 shots. I could roll a d6, but I am well within my right to not shoot the full number of shots.)

Obviously referencing the tournament circuit restrictions. I don't much care about balancing casual scenarios, those are easily balanced on an ad-hoc basis.

2 more games to report:
Ultramarines vs Orks: Ultramarines win
Grey Knights vs Chaos Marines: Grey Knights win

I played as the Grey Knights and had first turn, mission was Secure and Control, table type was Hammer and Anvil. I had a GMDK, Voldus, 8 Paladin's, Stormraven, 3 Razorbacks, and 15 Strike Marines. Opponent had 2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

Turn one I drop in with Paladin's, Voldus, and GMDK. Stormraven flies up next to them, AC Razor moves up, 2 LC Razors stay back by my home objective. Psychic and shooting takes out Lascannon Havocs for first blood, a few Plague Marines, and 4 wounds off the Raider. Chaos first turn he adjusts his Rhino wall, and deep strikes in a Lord and 3 Mutilators. They charge and kill the AC Razor and his other shooting pops 2.5 Paladin's. My turn 2 Smites and Lascannons kill the deep striking Lord and Mutilators, Raven kills the Raider, GMDK, Voldus, and Paladin's charge Plague Marines and his 2nd Lord, killing everyone. His second turn he jumps out of the Rhinos, fires everything thats left at the Paladin's and kills 2. He follows it up with charges that leave his guys in really bad shape. He calls the game.

I hold both objectives, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and would get Line breaker eventually. I've lost a Razor, a Strike Marine, 4 Paladin's, and the GMDK has taken a few wounds. He's lost everything but a few random Chaos Marines, 5 Havocs with 4 heavy bolters, and 4 empty Rhinos. My next turn probably would've left him with 3 empty Rhinos and nothing else.

I hit 10-0 tonight, 4 wins with Grey Knights, 6 wins with Sister's of Battle.

IMO nobody I've played against yet has brought enough long range multi damage firepower. The most dangerous army I've fought against had 29 Berserkers, Kharn, Demon Prince, Lord on bike, Raider, 2 Rhinos, and 2 Lascannon Predators.

2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

My goodness. This poor guy.

Did you give him some tips after the game?

 Marmatag wrote:

2 Chaos Lord's, Land Raider, 2 Havoc squads (Lascannons & Heavy bolters) big squad of Plague Marines, and 4 Rhinos with CSM with special weapons.

My goodness. This poor guy.

Did you give him some tips after the game?

Yeah, don't mess with Voldus and his Paladin buddies!

Actually yeah, I've tried telling him he needs extra bodies for the Havocs, and a nice big block of Cultists for a screen and his Rhino squads are almost useless. His only dangerous unit is the Land Raider and he's been using it as a pillbox instead of rushing with it. He's been playing for a very long time, but he was out of the game for about three or four years. In his defense he recently moved from out of state and the bulk of his army is still in Tennessee so he's very limited on what he can take.

Next week I'm taking on the Salamanders MSU gun line, which is the 3rd or 4th most successful army in our group. He has already proudly proclaimed he will castle up and try to blast me off the table with heavy weapons. He's got a ton of dudes and Razorbacks, but all his real teeth are tied up in 3 devastator squads. If I can knock those out early (respectable chances depending on how he deploys them) I think I can roll over him. Without his dozen missile launchers and lascannons he doesn't have anything to stop my big guys besides lots and lots of bolters and heavy bolters.

On a side note, he has professed a genuine fear of the Sisters of Battle. It's been a few decades since too many people have said that...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My $0.02 on the Forge World results:

I think they are absolutely skewing it... but possibly downwards. My local meta has a ton of people that will play things like the Land Raider Achilles, which is scary but is EXTREMELY vulnerable to people who know its rules and weaknesses. I have a hunch that barring a few select cases, people running Forge World gear and lists are probably bringing themselves down rather than up. Just look at the DKOK or R&H lists for example!

Opposite for me in the bay area. It's pretty competitive out here and when people run Forgeworld it's the broken most units.

I would be *100% fine* with Forgeworld if it had been tested as a part of the playtesting. But it wasn't! To me that is disgusting. The whole point of this being "the edition we asked for" was that they were testing it and balancing it.

Forgeworld feels like their rules were designed to sell models not to be a part of a balanced game.

Forgeworld has never playtested anything they've released. They also lock their rules against secondary pay-walls (their own books which tend to be expensive).

It's why there are so many people who flat-out refuse to play against them.

My Blood Angels "Barrel o' Bees" list vs Space Marine "Gulliman parking lot". My Blood Angels lost bad

2 days into NOVA:

Imperial Knights Vs. Ultramarines (Codex). Ultramarines win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Space Wolves. Space Wolves win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Tyranids. Custodes win.

Adeptus Custodes Vs. Ynnari. Ynnari win.

Astra Militarum Vs. Grey Knights. Grey Knights win.

Astra Militarum Vs. Dark Angels. Astra win.

Chaos Space Marines vs. Blood Angels. Chaos SpaceMarines win,

Orks vs Codex SM. Orks win on maelstorm.

Thousand Sons vs Necrons - TS Victory

My TS list was a character heavy smite spam list featuring the Changeling as support for Magnus and the disc sorcerers while the Necron list was a very assault-oriented Maynarkh list with Kutlakh. Necrons had zero chance against the weight of smites, getting tabled on turn 3. Some tremendously bad luck where 28 scytheguard attacks into Magnus resulted in zero damage certainly helped.

Tau Empire vs. Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Win

So I was using the new CSM Codex with my World Eaters and my opponent using the new Space marine codex.

World Eaters v Ultramarines - World Eaters win
World Eaters v Imperial Fists - World Eaters win

Orks vs Iron Hands - Orks Win
Orks vs White Scars - Draw
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Orks Win
Orks vs Salamanders - Salamanders Win

Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

No codex

I dont have much "pure" Harlequin games, but i have 5w and 3L as pure quins.

SoB i have 3W 0L

DE, 8W 7L (most of this is testing new units tho so idk if you wanted to count this)

Out of my 35 ish games in total im about 60% win rate.

For sure tho SoB are my Strongest army and i eve down play them.

Edit: Also i fight mostly, SM, CSM, Daemons, IG, Orks, and Eldar

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

My personal results from the nova open GT:

Astra Militarum Superheavy Tank Company

1) CSM Alpha Legion & Deathguard: Victory for the superheavies!

2) CSM & Daemons (Tzeench) with Decimator engines: Victory for the Soulburner cannons!

3) Necrons w/ Pylon: Victory for the Pylon (my worst match; tabled at the bottom of 3. Pylons are jerks!)

4) Grey Knights paladin spam with GMDK: Victory for the Grey Knights on objective points, though I tabled him at the bottom of turn 5 and it would have been a superheavy victory if it hadn't ended then and there ('cause I could've driven unhindered to the objectives).

5) Salamanders chapter lascannon spam (razorbacks, Chapter Master, dreadnoughts with lascannons, devastators with lascannons, predators with lascannons): narrow superheavy victory for me!

6) Adeptus Mechanicus brigade with Cawl + Neutronagers: tabled bottom of 4 by neutron lasers, victory for the robots!

7) Tyranids with genestealer spam, cult magus, and Swarmlord: Victory for the Superheavies!

8) Foot sororitas with lascannon predators and a LRBT: Easy victory for the Superheavies!

So I ended 4-4, went first 2 or 3 times, I think.

Had an Imperium (IG and BA) versus Ynaari. Imperium wins.

It was actually a 2 vs 1 game at 2000 points. The Ynaari player tried a footdar list that was about 60 models or so bunched up behind a ADL, admitting that it was experimental, but wanting to see what happened. I DS 3x5 plasma scions and two primes off to the side. The BA player DS two assault squads, Dante, and a Libby about 14" away. We tore several squads apart, leaving a model or two to be cleaned up by morale in three squads. He infiltrated scorpions, and had some Dragons remove a razorback. The scorpions and some dark reapers attack my Tauroxen, but fail to destroy them. They move away and infantry squads and basilisks remove the rest of the scorpions. Assault squads assault in to the model ball. A 30 minute conversation about assaulting into a situation where multiple assaults, ADL rules, and WDS rules all come into play with jump infantry happens and I mentally check out for a while. The Ynnari or Ynaari, or whatever thing they're called with the special rule that lets them just do things happens throughout the melee, causing far more damage to the assault squad than expected. Wounds continue through the next round, until the BA guy is down to about four assault marines, Dante, and the librarian. I've lost most of the wounds on a single taurox and I think two scions. I talk to my ally and we agree he's going to jump out of battle and go for the objective, and then I unload my mostly untouched army on the units left out of melee. His librarian and two of my scion squads assault into Yvraine. No blows happen the first turn, but the second turn, I deal one wound and the Librarian deals the remaining. I finish up everything not in melee in the meanwhile.

Next turn, Dante finishes up his melees and we finish up the remaining few models we didn't have in combat. There's maybe five remaining models for BA, Dante and libby included, and IG have 2 full strength Scions a 3 man Scion, a Prime with 2 wounds, a Prime, a Taurox with 1 wound left, a Taurox with 1 wound down, a Basilisk with 1 wound down, a Basilisk, three infantry squads with power sword, plasma pistol, plasmagun, and lascannon, a commissar lord with power sword, and a company commander with bolt pistol.

Sneggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

the first post contains no info at all on matchups, so that is manifestly untrue. All the first post shows is win/lose rate for each individual force, so the info provided has everything that is needed. 37 wins and 0 losses for example is all the first post needs.

puree wrote:

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

the first post contains no info at all on matchups, so that is manifestly untrue. All the first post shows is win/lose rate for each individual force, so the info provided has everything that is needed. 37 wins and 0 losses for example is all the first post needs.

Well, it's relevant if only to weed out the "Tyranid vs Tyranid" matchups, because if you only count that as a Win for Tyranids and not a Loss as well, you're skewing the data.

So if I played AM vs AM only (say I only play against one buddy and we like historical-style armies), then just reported 500 wins... well, AM would get 500 wins even though it should also get 500 losses, if that makes sense.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sneggy wrote:
Can't remember all my opponents but my results so far:

Tyranids-37 wins 0 losses
Daemons-4 wins 0 losses
Orks-1 win 0 losses
Adeptus Mechanicus- 3 wins 0 losses
Ravenwing-1 win 0 losses

U wot?

I'm guessing you are disbelieving?
I'm currently the #1 ITC player in the UK and have been doing rather well with 8th edition.
Lot of close games in there, few hiding a ripper swarm behind walls to avoid tabling whilst winning on points but I assure you thats all legit and above board.

He's not disbelieving, but those results of yours have no value here if you don't inform us the opponent. The tables in the first post will only work if they have the data on who won and who lost in the same game

Fair enough, didn't think of it like that.

I'll go back through and fathom out what I can. I know most of the match ups.