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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


I'd argue we don't need Lady Marines. We need Lady Werewolf Marines, Lady Vampire Marines, Lady Roman Marines, Lady Cyborg Marines, Lady Knight Marines, Lady Mongol Biker Marines, Lady Teacher Marines, Lady Ninja Marines, Lady Monster Hunter Marines, Lady Paladin Marines, Lady Super Marines, Lady Edgy Marines, Lady Bad Marines, Lady Evil Batman Marines, Lady Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Lady Zombie Marines, Lady Berserker Marines, Lady Cultist Marines, Lady Evil Cyborg Marines, Lady Heavy Metal Guitar Marines, etc.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So just so I'm clear, calling them lady marines is sexist right? Because it otherizes them? I just want to make sure, because what I thought was just calling them Astartes was good enough. Calling them Lady marines makes their gender first before their calling. It robs them of their importance. It's why "actress" is a dying term. Because it makes the issue about gender rather than skill/talent/profession.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






It's more to highlight the absurdity of the situation by using deliberately silly language.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 Gert wrote:
It's more to highlight the absurdity of the situation by using deliberately silly language.


Thank you, I just needed to make sure I wasn't the only one who thought that was silly.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

That's why I also wasn't using the proper names for the other marine types.

Interestingly though, the debate in German is the opposite at times - the request is to gender words that previously were not gendered.

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Marvel makes about the GDP of a small 1st world country, PER movie. So yeah, go woke, become the single most successful franchise in film history.


I wouldn't call Marvel movies "woke", they are absurdly safe. I mean, it is good that they have minorities and women protagonists, but congratulations that is decades behind the curve. I mean remember Alien (1979)? now that is a super feminist movie. The first black superhero movie isn't Black Panther, it was Blade in 1998.

This is specially hilarious when compared to the source material. I mean: "oh no, Marvel made a female super hero movie based on a character that debuted on comics in 1967". What's next? "oh no, Marvel made political commentary like that time Captain America punched Hitler in 1941 (America entered WW2 until a year later in 1942)". And lets not even talk about all the LGBT characters in the comics that Disney is blatantly ignoring to avoid offending the Russian and Chinese market.

If your concept of "woke" is Disney Marvel and Disney Star Wars, then I guess you have been living under a rock for the last half century.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 14:42:59


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Yeah I have to agree with that, it took them what, 17 movies to have a film with a female protagonist?

It's more a commentary on the reaction of a certain segment of the fanbase though to be fair.

   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






I was going to make that point TBH but didn't want to push into a different topic accidentally.
All the companies who make changes to their product or add to it that are decried as "woke", at best pay lip service and at worst are doing it to fill quotas set out by the money people.

I think 44 pages in, we've reached the point where the arguments on the anti-female SM side have lost steam or have become problematic. It seems that most posters have agreed that the addition of female SM would both be a good addition to the setting and help to promote inclusivity and reduce the prominence of toxic elements within the community. A win for the modelers, the story writers, and those seeking a more welcoming hobby.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 14:51:20


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




No one remembers the dust up when Heimdall became black? Or the whole internet rage about the "She's got back up" girl scene in Infinity wars? The trogs out there have been decrying the (Vomit) "wokeness" (Vomit again) of Marvel for years. Because they had the temerity to make Heimdall black. Now interestingly, there is not a single lesbian centered big box office film in existence. There are dozens of gay male focused tv shows and movies; There is broke Back Mountain, and mid night cowboy, and even The Bird Cage, but Hollywood/Capitalism does not cater or find interest in the Female Gaze. Like, at all. So yeah, when Marvel made 1.2 billion dollars off of Captain Marvel, their first full forwards female driven superhero movie, it was a big deal. What sucks is when Black widow tanks (Covid has ruined theater films) the Les Grossman's of the world will just kill it off for another decade, because "Female gaze doesn't sell", which is a giant lie.

We've seen the same argument used countless times in this thread. People feel it's ok to attack this idea on the merit's that it doesn't make financial sense for GW to do this, as if that is some how related?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 15:17:05


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 some bloke wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
So my wife's impression is just a general one: "Oh, this is a male space, if I try to get involved some guy is gonna come over and take over and boss me around and try to do everything for me".

This is based on her long experience of being a nerdy woman and an engineer and having guys assume she doesn't know anything and try to take over. Whether that was roleplaying games in Uni where she was given the healer and then the guys in the group tried to tell her what action to take every turn (a behaviour I see in my own D&D group which is 4 women and 2 men, it's only the men backseat gaming for the women, and actually mostly one guy in particular).

Or when she was at a party with a bunch of engineers and there was a scalextrics track. She'd always been interested in them but never had one as a kid, so she was queueing up excited to take her turn and as soon as she got there the guy running the thing tried to take the controller off her to show her "how to do it properly" and telling her what to do, which no, he absolutely hadn't been doing to anyone else (all male) who'd taken their turn.

Or in her workplace when people assume she's a PA or secretary rather than a project manager.

So she just assumes if she went into GW it'd be another male dominated space where she'd be treated as an outsider and patronized, even if it was well meaning she wouldn't be treated like the other gamers there, and she just doesn't engage because she's had enough of that crap.



Yeah, I have seen that sort of behaviour myself. It speaks to me of a far deeper rooted problem than whether marines have female heads or not. Does she assume that it's male dominated because of space marines, or because all the people in the shop are usually male?

The whole "male dominated space" thing is what needs to change to make the game open to women, not the heads of the models. By all means, change the heads of the models - I'm on board with it. But don't think it'll make much difference to the sorts of behaviours described above - that will take time and general no-being-a-donkeycave-ness attitudes. I expect that a really balanced shop owner will make a big difference, who doesn't patronize people or assume how little they know. If scalextrics kits were horse racing instead of cars, the guy running it would still assume he needed to show her how to run it properly. That's the problem.


Yep, agreed. typically if a field is dominated by one gender or the other, the barrier in place is just a general institutional attitude. A man who wants to become a kindergarten teacher in america is generally going to be viewed with distrust and is just...unlikely to bother when he can simply pursue a slightly different job within the same category like being a middle school teacher and face none of the same barriers. A friend of mine wanted to get into medicine, and pursued a nursing degree rather than a med school degree for financial reasons, but ended up feeling artificially limited to being a prison nurse or surgical nurse as those are the only categories that aren't something like 90% women and really difficult to break into as a man.

People hearing of, or having had experience with a man in those roles is the #1 thing that changes peoples' attitudes and makes them willing to be more trusting of seeing people in that role. The real thing that will actually help to get more people into warhammer is just...momentum. But the thing that fueled for example the great broadening of people getting into DnD 5e or comic books was just...those things becoming normal and acceptable for people other than young white men to be into. Representation of fictional characters is just a signal and a symbol, it's not the real first step and it's not the real thing that detractors are actually afraid of - it's the elements of their hobby that they like that they know other people do not like and will try to change if the thing becomes more popular.

If you grow up the sole demographic of a type of media, and every story told within that media is specifically the type of story you like to read with either characters who are like you (or start out like you) or characters you like to imagine yourself being like, and you believe that your thing becoming more popular means that you will have less of the types of stories and characters you like to read or watch or listen to, then your type of media becoming more popular is a thing you don't want. When your little niche group of 5 people who are really into the thing you like wish that more people were into the thing you like, you don't actually want a larger group of people different from you to get into the thing you like, you want to clone the people like you and just make it so there's more of you. Not different, just more.

I can empathize with the feeling. I just don't think it's good. I think there is an inherent value improvement of a category of art overall when many different people from many different walks of like bring their particular take and interpretation of the art category to the table rather than just telling infinite variations on the same exact few stories.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Where is it written down what the core aspects of a space marine are?

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Whats so interesting, generally, about where this intersects with nerdy/geeky media pursuits is that all of our art forms tend to be very...permutational?

We love taking a thing we know, and are familiar with, and know the references and factoids and previous permutations of, and exploring a bit of new territory by spinning them off or mashing them up or retooling and re-imagining them, but there's always certain particular sub-categories that cause discomfort and predictable outrage every time.

What if Batman was young? What if batman was old? What if batman was dark and gritty and grounded and modern? What if batman was in the future? what if batman did kill people? What if batman was a zombie? What if batman was in this team or worked with this hero or fought this other hero's villain? What if batman was ga-NOPE, STOP, STOP RIGHT THERE, IF YOU DO THAT YOU HAVE TO INVENT YOUR OWN, NEW, WHOLLY DIFFERENT, DISTINCT PROPERTY TOTALLY UNCONNECTED TO THE ONE I LIKE THAT IS MINE AND CANNOT BE CHANGED IN THAT WAY SPECIFICALLY!






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.


In what way would making a space marine a woman be more of a core change to the identity of a space marine than:

-Good guy space marines who are mutated by the Warp (Space Wolves)

-Good guy space marines who do not adhere to the normal chapter structure (various)

-Space Marines who are not living, thinking humans with bodies at all (Thousand Sons)

-Space Marines who use new, advanced technology instead of ill-understood technology from ye dark ages (primaris)

etc, etc, etc, down to all the various permutations of space marines that currently exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 15:38:04


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot






Spoiler:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some Bloke: I asked my wife about this. To your point 1: She says that the presentation of Space Marines, their hyper masculine nature, the absence of women from the artwork, broadcasts clearly to her that this game is Not For Her. She does not feel like she'd be particularly welcome in the space. Is this a major harm? No. But it is a minor one.

To point 2: The issue you're talking about here is reinforced and in some ways created by the point above - why is the space like that, why is it dominated by one group so much? Because other groups don't feel particularly welcomed or like it is For Them.

To point 3: I dunno man, I think a lot of people who get representation feel like it matters A LOT to them. When you're already represented really well in media and so on then it probably seems like it's not a big deal, but when you're not and then you finally get some representation, yeah, it does feel like a big deal. Can't you see how that would work?

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


My wife plays AoS and Warcry with me. She's played some of the box games as well - Spacehulk, Silvertower, etc. She is not at all interested in building, painting, or collecting. She only plays with the miniatures that I own. Contrary to your point my wife refuses to play with any female miniatures and will only play with the biggest hammer-wielding Stormcast. Preferably riding on dragons. I ignorantly bought some female Stormcasts - assembled and painted them for her and in her words - 'why would I play with the weaker smaller Stormcasts riding on ugly cats when I can play with my hammer guys riding dragons?'

Honestly I don't care if GW makes female space marines. Its a fictional universe they own and they can do whatever they want. I'm going to assume their target customer base/audience is male 12+; so does it really make sense to expend resources or energy trying to target outside that customer base. I have yet to see anything supporting the notion that they will increase sales if they go this route.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
What if batman was ga-NOPE, STOP, STOP RIGHT THERE, IF YOU DO THAT YOU HAVE TO INVENT YOUR OWN, NEW, WHOLLY DIFFERENT, DISTINCT PROPERTY TOTALLY UNCONNECTED TO THE ONE I LIKE THAT IS MINE AND CANNOT BE CHANGED IN THAT WAY SPECIFICALLY!
.


Its truly ironic, really. Especially considering a lot of the early depictions of batman and Robin.

And for the record, I am extremely supportive of better and proper lbgtq representation in media.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.

That core must be weaker than mine if GW doesn't count it as one of the defining features of SM.
The core aspects of SM are:
A - Super-soldiers in PA.
B - Have the most customisation options due to the blank slate design of the models and extremely flexible and mutable lore.
C - They are the propaganda poster faction of both the game and the in-universe Imperium.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Removed - BrookM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:06:00


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with that, it took them what, 17 movies to have a film with a female protagonist?


Racist/Sexist exec had to be fired first. She was supposed to be in Age of Ultron.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:31:47


 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Offending post and quotes referring to said post have been removed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:08:50


GREAT LEADER IS DEAD
SOLO NOBRE MUST FALL
REMOVE THE MARKED TARGET TO ACCEPT THE CONTRACT
WELCOME BRIGADOR


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Jammer87 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some Bloke: I asked my wife about this. To your point 1: She says that the presentation of Space Marines, their hyper masculine nature, the absence of women from the artwork, broadcasts clearly to her that this game is Not For Her. She does not feel like she'd be particularly welcome in the space. Is this a major harm? No. But it is a minor one.

To point 2: The issue you're talking about here is reinforced and in some ways created by the point above - why is the space like that, why is it dominated by one group so much? Because other groups don't feel particularly welcomed or like it is For Them.

To point 3: I dunno man, I think a lot of people who get representation feel like it matters A LOT to them. When you're already represented really well in media and so on then it probably seems like it's not a big deal, but when you're not and then you finally get some representation, yeah, it does feel like a big deal. Can't you see how that would work?

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


Honestly I don't care if GW makes female space marines. Its a fictional universe they own and they can do whatever they want. I'm going to assume their target customer base/audience is male 12+; so does it really make sense to expend resources or energy trying to target outside that customer base. I have yet to see anything supporting the notion that they will increase sales if they go this route.


The answer, for most properties that people love to get mad about, is $.

For some weird reason, some bizarre esoteric mystery the potential causes and roots of which shall not be discussed here lest we violate the sacred barrier of no political discussion, that classic demographic of 'young white boys with middle class disposable income and time to expend on leisure activities' has shrunk.

Dramatically.

In one single generation, the fraction of wealth in america tied to the youngest spending demographic has been reduced by nearly 80%. In general, the types of people who have money to spend are trending older (say, you ever notice a lot of entertainment properties might be designed specifically to appeal to people who were kids in, oh, I don't know, the 1980s?) and trending....again, politics...hmm....."Denser"? "Fewer"? Any industry that relies on a larger amount of people consuming a relatively inexpensive product is having to grapple with the reality of a situation where eight people have half of what there is, in terms of the money that exists to spend and buy things.

So far, the shifting in GW's target market has primarily just gone from teenage boys, to.... those same teenage boys but 20-30 years later. The settings have gotten simultaneously more serious, gritty, dark, etc, but also they've abandoned the things that typically only teenage boys are unselfconscious enough to consume without embarrassment, like some of the super over the top cartoony stuff, or the 1980s Hawt Behbs With Behg Bewbiez (see Sisters Repentia for an example).

But they know people don't live forever, and they know that the narrow demographic of teenaged boys that were previously their entry level demographic has a fraction of the disposable wealth it used to have.

In my eyes, Age of Sigmar is the property that they're currently using as an experiment. Does this work? Is this anything? We've got Nostalgia stuff you remember from Fantasy, we've got stuff designed to hit on broad cultural appeal (It is not a mistake that the new line of Hobgoblins kinda sorta resembles a line of LOTR orks that GW doesn't have to pay sky-high royalties for), we've got gender representation, we've got some weird out there experimental stuff, we've got cute stuff we've got serious stuff what are people currently outside our main demographic looking for?

Everything else is hard-locked into their current purely nostalgia-based, super safe demo. As safe as they possibly can be. We're getting remakes of classic units, we're getting stuff you recognize from classic novels and other fluff, we're getting really minor variations on things we know like Orks and marines and sisters.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.


So core it isn’t in any of their codexs EVER. Isn’t in print at all now and hasn’t been published for 4 years. Hardly a defining feature.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Anyone else at all surprised at the amount of times the mods have had to step in and clean up a post made in a hateful and violent manner? Because I am not. This is exactly the thing this thread is helping us to point out and stop. There is a sickness in our community and it revolves around gatekeeping.

People are still asking for proof of hate in the community. I wish we could just link to all the times the mod team has stepped in and helped us today as proof. I'd say I was shocked but this is exactly what GW was talking about with "you will not be missed".
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Andykp wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.


So core it isn’t in any of their codexs EVER. Isn’t in print at all now and hasn’t been published for 4 years. Hardly a defining feature.


It isn't just about that specific piece of lore in the first place, they're themed like that way even without that - you can't really say that they haven't been depicted and shown as an all-male brotherhood for years and years, otherwise there would be little point to this topic. Just because that particular lore originated from a non-codex book and then wasn't in a codex doesn't they haven't been portrayed like that for the past 2 decades or that it isn't something GW wants them to have as part of them, the fact that they deicded to keep and update that lore around 17 years after it was published (although there's also the other occasional mentions of similar stuff in the Horus Heresy novels, from what I remember) indicates that it not being printed in a codex was quite irrelevant as to whether they wanted it as part of their lore or not. It being 'missing' for so long did not mean they didn't want that lore still.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:42:23


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






But the cultural aspect isn't what people are saying GW isn't talking about are they. It's the pseudoscience "it has to be a male child cos zygotes" bit.
And yes while they haven't mentioned it in a main Codex for (and I'm pretty sure my maths is right) about half the lifetime of the entire hobby, that doesn't mean they don't want to use it in the future. It just means they haven't wanted to use it for nearly two decades.
Oh wait. Yeah I'm gonna say GW doesn't want to use that bit of background.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:53:01


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

GW change and add and remove stuff from the background all the time. In the end it's not an argument about whether it's part of the background or not, but why this change in particular is the sticking point.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.


So core it isn’t in any of their codexs EVER. Isn’t in print at all now and hasn’t been published for 4 years. Hardly a defining feature.


It isn't just about that specific piece of lore in the first place, they're themed like that way even without that - you can't really say that they haven't been depicted and shown as an all-male brotherhood for years and years


Like how Militarum Tempestus are only shown with male troopers, Imperial Guard have only been shown with male troopers prior to a couple weeks ago, Tau were shown with only male troopers, GSC were only shown with male troopers, Custodes have been shown as all-male....etc, etc?

Loyalist Space Marines are the ONLY group portrayed that way that have ever had any explicit in-universe justification for why they MUST be all male. The fact that they have historically been portrayed that way for X amount of time has no bearing because it is more of an exception rather than a rule when GW does NOT portray a group as an all-male brotherhood. Take any random group within 40k and fantasy, and there's a higher chance that looking at their models you'd consider them to be portrayed as an all-male brotherhood than not.

It's almost like, rather than being a thing that by default 1/2 of a given population should probably be, female-ness has been treated as an attribute. After all, what are the different types of animals portrayed by Eldar Aspect Warriors?

-hawks
-scorpions
-dragons
-ghosts
-bigly revenge guys
-da red ones hunt fasta
-rocket hat skull fellows
-shrill women
-boy howdy this narrative theming kind of falls apart fast when you think about it, at least stereotypical Kung Fu styles mostly stick to animals huh

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


The difference is those are all external theming placed ontop of the core aspects of a Space Marine, whereas this would be something that's a change to those core aspects of the Space Marines themselves.


So core it isn’t in any of their codexs EVER. Isn’t in print at all now and hasn’t been published for 4 years. Hardly a defining feature.


It isn't just about that specific piece of lore in the first place, they're themed like that way even without that - you can't really say that they haven't been depicted and shown as an all-male brotherhood for years and years, otherwise there would be little point to this topic. Just because that particular lore originated from a non-codex book and then wasn't in a codex doesn't they haven't been portrayed like that for the past 2 decades or that it isn't something GW wants them to have as part of them, the fact that they deicded to keep and update that lore around 17 years after it was published (although there's also the other occasional mentions of similar stuff in the Horus Heresy novels, from what I remember) indicates that it not being printed in a codex was quite irrelevant as to whether they wanted it as part of their lore or not. It being 'missing' for so long did not mean they didn't want that lore still.


A bit of lore said it so they’ve been all male, when ever it’s been brought up there has a Been hate thrown at anyone who suggest we change it, so they continue to be portrayed as all male all the time. The fact they have been all male isn’t isn’t reason to keep it that way, it’s the problem.

The primarchs were originally mates and fellow generals. All this father son, brother vs brother stuff is relatively new and been massively over played by the heresy books (but that’s a separate thread all together). They did have a little nudge toward a Christian monastic style round 4th edition ish but have since moved away from that. I think if the “brotherhood” is so important to you as a core marine trait, that’s something you have read in to the text. I don’t believe it’s their intention. I have read the same stuff as you and don’t get that feeling at all from it. It’s just the choice of all male pronouns that leans that way to me. They are no more a “band of brothers” than a mixed sex group of guard to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone else at all surprised at the amount of times the mods have had to step in and clean up a post made in a hateful and violent manner? Because I am not. This is exactly the thing this thread is helping us to point out and stop. There is a sickness in our community and it revolves around gatekeeping.

People are still asking for proof of hate in the community. I wish we could just link to all the times the mod team has stepped in and helped us today as proof. I'd say I was shocked but this is exactly what GW was talking about with "you will not be missed".

It has been less common than I expected. Thankfully. But it does feel like some have been trying to argue it and when their weak reasons get picked apart their true colours come out. Not all though which is progress.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 19:48:10


 
   
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 Da Boss wrote:
As to female space marines, I really like the point that we have Werewolf Marines, Vampire Marines, Roman Marines, Cyborg Marines, Knight Marines, Mongol Biker Marines, Teacher Marines, Ninja Marines, Monster Hunter Marines, Paladin Marines, Super Marines, Edgy Marines, Bad Marines, Evil Batman Marines, Egyptian Terracotta Army Marines, Zombie Marines, Berserker Marines, Cultist Marines, Evil Cyborg Marines, Heavy Metal Guitar Marines but we can't have Lady Marines, it's a step too far and would make a mockery of the background. (Also, did I leave any marine flavours out?)


It occurs to me that anyone suggesting that introducing female space marines would in some way spoil the sanctity of the background material just needs to be presented with the list of Primarch names. This background was never particularly sancty to begin with, people. (Yes, that's a word now, hush)


...why she needs to Contrapulate the Mystic Va'arlon

That doesn't sound like a good idea, honestly...

 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone else at all surprised at the amount of times the mods have had to step in and clean up a post made in a hateful and violent manner? Because I am not. This is exactly the thing this thread is helping us to point out and stop. There is a sickness in our community and it revolves around gatekeeping.


Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long.

If it revolves around gatekeeping, it might not just be a gender issue, though - I've had a friend with one of the most gender-inclusive mindsets I can imagine just completely lose their gak when someone I was at the time trying to introduce to the beginning of 9th came up with a concept for a Chaos Knight J-pop-idol band because "I don't know what you're playing, but it's not 40K," and the aftershocks of the shouting match that ensued pretty much destroyed 40K within that group over the next couple months.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
People are still asking for proof of hate in the community. I wish we could just link to all the times the mod team has stepped in and helped us today as proof. I'd say I was shocked but this is exactly what GW was talking about with "you will not be missed".


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 23:23:33


 the_scotsman wrote:
"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!"
 
   
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Heading off this tangent, as it's not constructive. Please stick to the topic, rather than discussing moderation in-thread

 
   
 
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