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Captyn_Bob wrote:
Nope. The double blastmaster hellbrute should count

What?

 McGibs wrote:
Someone pointed out that the "helbrute" on the fire frenzy stratagem card isnt in the same font treatment as other keywords, suggesting that it's likely intended to be the helbrute unit specifically, not the helbrute keyword.
Now, arguing RAW vs RAI on a goddamn FONT TYPE is a new low for GW, but I wouldn't expect the doublefiring doritos and leviathans to make it through a FAQ round.

It's actually completely legal to murder anyone who says that

GAdvance wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Someone pointed out that the "helbrute" on the fire frenzy stratagem card isnt in the same font treatment as other keywords, suggesting that it's likely intended to be the helbrute unit specifically, not the helbrute keyword.
Now, arguing RAW vs RAI on a goddamn FONT TYPE is a new low for GW, but I wouldn't expect the doublefiring doritos and leviathans to make it through a FAQ round.

It's actually completely legal to murder anyone who says that

Can confirm.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Nope. The double blastmaster hellbrute should count

I mean, yeah. its specifically a helbrute unit. Either way the ruling goes, the sonic dread works out.
The other FW dreads with the helbrute keyword might be on the chopping block though, is all I'm saying. This seems like a classic case of GW and FW not communicating very well.
If someone were to bring that the "helbrute" wasn't italicized properly up as an actual RAW argument, I'd tell them to suck a dreadsock.
RAI though... I don't have the faith in either rules teams to believe they intended leviathans and doredeos to be lumped in.

All in all I am quite happy with the chaos book so far...also it looks like it might have some stronger builds than the SM codex does, which is pretty interesting.

Ghorgul wrote:
To really maximize effect with Slaanesh Terminators you have to remember that Prescience works also in melee, so to really maximize its effect one should:
1: Prescience.
2: Warptime.
3: Shoot with Endless Cacophony.
4: Charge, preferably multiple units.

At hard targets supercharged plasma is the best, but against lighter hordes shooting both bolter and plasma normally is preferable.

Charging then again is weird choice, you either charge to maximize the prescience and casualties to enemy, but at the same time this will expose your Sorcerer and possible Lord to enemy shooting, unless you bring second unit next to it. But bringing second unit would have you making 4 unit deep strike with bare minimum total cost of 550 pts, easily going above 600 pts when units are kitted.
I don't know, this feels excessive.

Excessive you say? It sounds positively Slaaneshi too me.

Now do all that with Noise Marines who also get their hatred of the imperium off on a 5+ and shoot their sonic blasters in the middle of the fight phase when they die during that charge attempt and the subsequent battles.

Excess of violence also triggers off music of the apocalypse, noise truly are the masters of silly rule interactions.

Not sure the Blissgiver is actually worth the Stratagem point to take..
Yea i said stratagem point coz every Emperor Children player want to jump on that Intoxicating Elixir to give a Lord S5 A5 (to wound MEQ on 3+)

.. or a Daemon Prince to get S8 A5.
You could even give him Herald for Hysterical Frenzy and go S9
And Diabolical Strenght to go S10, 6 Attack.

But that's just overkill, you should be better with cancelling Invulnerable save spell.

An E.C. Daemon prince warlord can get S8 A9 when mid life. Slaanesh save the fool who can't terminate him, the counter attack will be S8... 12 attacks (24 with Hysterical Frenzy). Suck it Khorn :p

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Not sure the Blissgiver is actually worth the Stratagem point to take..
Yea i said stratagem point coz every Emperor Children player want to jump on that Intoxicating Elixir to give a Lord S5 A5 (to wound MEQ on 3+)

.. or a Daemon Prince to get S8 A5.
You could even give him Herald for Hysterical Frenzy and go S9
And Diabolical Strenght to go S10, 6 Attack.

But that's just overkill, you should be better with cancelling Invulnerable save spell.

An E.C. Daemon prince warlord can get S8 A9 when mid life. Slaanesh save the fool who can't terminate him, the counter attack will be S8... 12 attacks (24 with Hysterical Frenzy). Suck it Khorn :p

A Emperor's children daemon prince has 8 attacks base with the intoxicating elixir and can go up to 11 after taking 3 wounds.

4 base
+1 for intoxicating elixir
+3 for pair of malific talons
+3 for having suffered 3 wounds

Also yeah the blissgiver is aweful it is probably the worst relic in the entire codex, it is even worse than the imperial fist bolt pistol.

Lord of skulls got a 100 point reduction plus the strategem Demonforge works on a daemon engines which a Lord of Skull is. The Lord of Skulls is actually quite shooty this edition. so, for 1 cp to make it reroll to hit and reroll to wound... that's so awesome!

I really like it now. I am so glad I assembled and painted mine up as a Lord of skulls rather than a K'tan engine. And it makes for a really imposing model too.

Hi people. I am playing at my local store and I did poorly lastly at my first 8th edition game. I was wondering what I could do with my following collection :

+HQ.++

-Chaos lord in terminator armor with chainfist.
-Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne.
-Lord of Contagion / Chaos Lord of Nurgle in terminator armour.
-Daemon Prince with wings and Hellforged sword x2
-Dark Apostle x2
-Great Unclean One.
-Herald of Nurgle x2.
-Sorcerer in Terminator armour.
-Sorcerer on bike x3.
-Malignant Plaguecaster / Sorcer of Nurgle.

+Troops.++
-Chaos Space Marines x70 (10 with CCW, 14 with plasma/melta, rest with bolters).
-Nurglings x3.
-Plaguebearers x40 (2 Icons, 2 instruments, 2 champ).


Elite.
-Chaos Terminators x15.
-Plague Marines x14 (2x Dark Imperium set).
-Noxious Blightbringer.


Fast Attack.
-Chaos Bikers x6
-Plague Drones x3


Heavy support.
-Land Raider x3
-Predator.
-Vindicator x2.
-Havocs x10 (4 ML, 4 Heavy Bolters).
-Soul Grinder.

Dedicated transports.
-Chaos Rhino x4.

So, what do you think are the main element in my collection that would synergize well with each other ?

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I am playing at my local store and I did poorly lastly at my first 8th edition game. I was wondering what I could do with my following collection :

+HQ.++

-Chaos lord in terminator armor with chainfist.
-Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne.
-Lord of Contagion / Chaos Lord of Nurgle in terminator armour.
-Daemon Prince with wings and Hellforged sword x2
-Dark Apostle x2
-Great Unclean One.
-Herald of Nurgle x2.
-Sorcerer in Terminator armour.
-Sorcerer on bike x3.
-Malignant Plaguecaster / Sorcer of Nurgle.

+Troops.++
-Chaos Space Marines x70 (10 with CCW, 14 with plasma/melta, rest with bolters).
-Nurglings x3.
-Plaguebearers x40 (2 Icons, 2 instruments, 2 champ).


Elite.
-Chaos Terminators x15.
-Plague Marines x14 (2x Dark Imperium set).
-Noxious Blightbringer.


Fast Attack.
-Chaos Bikers x6
-Plague Drones x3


Heavy support.
-Land Raider x3
-Predator.
-Vindicator x2.
-Havocs x10 (4 ML, 4 Heavy Bolters).
-Soul Grinder.

Dedicated transports.
-Chaos Rhino x4.

So, what do you think are the main element in my collection that would synergize well with each other ?

Buy the new CSM Codex

One thing that immediately jumps out is the DP are cheaper if you take an axe or sword and have some great new options. Also the Slannesh ability to attack again seems really good.

Gibs55 wrote:

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I am playing at my local store and I did poorly lastly at my first 8th edition game. I was wondering what I could do with my following collection :

+HQ.++

-Chaos lord in terminator armor with chainfist.
-Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne.
-Lord of Contagion / Chaos Lord of Nurgle in terminator armour.
-Daemon Prince with wings and Hellforged sword x2
-Dark Apostle x2
-Great Unclean One.
-Herald of Nurgle x2.
-Sorcerer in Terminator armour.
-Sorcerer on bike x3.
-Malignant Plaguecaster / Sorcer of Nurgle.

+Troops.++
-Chaos Space Marines x70 (10 with CCW, 14 with plasma/melta, rest with bolters).
-Nurglings x3.
-Plaguebearers x40 (2 Icons, 2 instruments, 2 champ).


Elite.
-Chaos Terminators x15.
-Plague Marines x14 (2x Dark Imperium set).
-Noxious Blightbringer.


Fast Attack.
-Chaos Bikers x6
-Plague Drones x3


Heavy support.
-Land Raider x3
-Predator.
-Vindicator x2.
-Havocs x10 (4 ML, 4 Heavy Bolters).
-Soul Grinder.

Dedicated transports.
-Chaos Rhino x4.

So, what do you think are the main element in my collection that would synergize well with each other ?

Buy the new CSM Codex

One thing that immediately jumps out is the DP are cheaper if you take an axe or sword and have some great new options. Also the Slannesh ability to attack again seems really good.

Yeah, I was planning to buy it. However, concerning your suggestion, I don't really have the units to get the most out of the EC trait.

 Khornate25 wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I am playing at my local store and I did poorly lastly at my first 8th edition game. I was wondering what I could do with my following collection :

+HQ.++

-Chaos lord in terminator armor with chainfist.
-Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne.
-Lord of Contagion / Chaos Lord of Nurgle in terminator armour.
-Daemon Prince with wings and Hellforged sword x2
-Dark Apostle x2
-Great Unclean One.
-Herald of Nurgle x2.
-Sorcerer in Terminator armour.
-Sorcerer on bike x3.
-Malignant Plaguecaster / Sorcer of Nurgle.

+Troops.++
-Chaos Space Marines x70 (10 with CCW, 14 with plasma/melta, rest with bolters).
-Nurglings x3.
-Plaguebearers x40 (2 Icons, 2 instruments, 2 champ).


Elite.
-Chaos Terminators x15.
-Plague Marines x14 (2x Dark Imperium set).
-Noxious Blightbringer.


Fast Attack.
-Chaos Bikers x6
-Plague Drones x3


Heavy support.
-Land Raider x3
-Predator.
-Vindicator x2.
-Havocs x10 (4 ML, 4 Heavy Bolters).
-Soul Grinder.

Dedicated transports.
-Chaos Rhino x4.

So, what do you think are the main element in my collection that would synergize well with each other ?

Buy the new CSM Codex

One thing that immediately jumps out is the DP are cheaper if you take an axe or sword and have some great new options. Also the Slannesh ability to attack again seems really good.

Yeah, I was planning to buy it. However, concerning your suggestion, I don't really have the units to get the most out of the EC trait.

Based on you having both nurgle and khorne units are you an undivided player ?

If yeah give your termies mark of slaanesh and count them as having combi-plasma you now have the best slaanesh unit that any chaos space marine army except Thousands sons, world eaters and deathguard can use.

As the poster above said grab a unit of 10 Termies MoS with Combi-plasma cast the spell that gives +1 to hit and proceed to unleash two very devastating shooting rounds without the fear of exploding. If you can weave something else in that gives re-roll to hits/wounds it will be insane.

Run your Space Marines counting as Noise Marines

You could throw then into a LR or Rhinos. If you choose the Rhinos the Predator would be a good heavy option and its priced fairly competitively too. Havocs are good also and work well with Slannesh.

You probably want to Sorcerer Lord to accompany the Termies and then you could run the DP as a second HQ with all the goodies soon to be available.

Just going of what I have seen on YouTube. My personal favourite unit would have to be Khorne Bezerkers in one of those FW claws, however that isn't an option.

Yeah, I'm more of an undivided / renegade player (never was capable of commitment to one god / legion). Thanks for the info guys !

 Khornate25 wrote:
So, what do you think are the main element in my collection that would synergize well with each other ?

Given DG doesn't have rules for a few weeks, if probably run it as at least two detachments, a nurgle/generic chaos detachment possibly with the DG stuff+demons (possibly including DG plague marine troops, if you bother bringing the DG characters to buff them), and one using the rest of CSM under the legion of your choice.

I'd say look at running two or three detachments to maximize synergy. Also, I'm not suggesting how many of each to run, you won't be able to field all obviously. First a nurgle demon detachment with heralds and plague bearers. Next a gunline detachment, go with alpha legion or iron warriors and put your CSM, havocs, predator, possibly vindicator, plus a sorcerer or two and a daemon prince. Lastly, a world eaters detachment with your terminator, terminator lord, bikers (probably) and the other daemon prince.

That gives you the best synergy I see. The plague bearers help keep your havocs/predator/vindicators safe from assault, you have CSM to grab objectives, the terminators are your big assault element and the bikers+daemon prince can serve as another mobile element.

Those alpha legion tactics have me wondering if berzerkers wouldn't be very strong in that army list. Amazing if you get first turn; otherwise eh.

I think I'm still going to grab a storm eagle and zip it over into enemy lines with 18 zerkers + dark apostle + exalted champion. Will probably do a World Eaters Detachment but make the storm eagle nurgle from a different detachment to give it another -1 to

Double butcher cannon leviathans is obviously amazing for firing twice even with the restrictions, but I'm wondering what the best usage of infantry firing twice would be. Does seem to be combi plas termies

I feel that if want to use the Alpha legion strategem forward operatives, and you are afraid that opponent may seize first turn, the best is to deploy 20 noise marines instead of berzerkers. Noise marines can shoot even if they are killed off, so even if opponent seizes and stomps your noise marine unit, you still get to shoot as you die... And 20 noise marines, while not as devastating as 20 berzerkers in close combat, are far more shooty, and they should at least be able to tie up some units.

 luke1705 wrote:
Those alpha legion tactics have me wondering if berzerkers wouldn't be very strong in that army list. Amazing if you get first turn; otherwise eh.

Do we have any info as to whether or not all of the non-cult legions will have access to the cult marine units? If they are, some of the combos would be pretty crazy like the one you mentioned.

Gibs55 wrote:
As the poster above said grab a unit of 10 Termies MoS with Combi-plasma cast the spell that gives +1 to hit and proceed to unleash two very devastating shooting rounds without the fear of exploding. If you can weave something else in that gives re-roll to hits/wounds it will be insane.

Drop a Captain (or Abbadon) with them for the hit re-rolls. Alternatively use the Strategem that lets you re-roll 1's to hit.

There is a strategem (VotLW) that lets you give them +1 to wound as well.

Good lord. 10+Captain+Sorcerer, all with combi plasma, +1 to hit, +1 to wound, re-roll 1's, all double tapping overcharged plasmas, shooting twice with Endless cacophany.

Hillariously they all have power weapons/ fists, and strike first if charged.

Abby makes them immune to Morale (and his presence makes them even more scary to charge) so casualties are no issue.

Expensive as heck, but by god its a nasty unit.

As the poster above said grab a unit of 10 Termies MoS with Combi-plasma cast the spell that gives +1 to hit and proceed to unleash two very devastating shooting rounds without the fear of exploding

A one is always a failure. It can be reroll, but not modify.
So a 1 to hit with Prescience is still a 1.

Find where that's in the rules please...

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

As the poster above said grab a unit of 10 Termies MoS with Combi-plasma cast the spell that gives +1 to hit and proceed to unleash two very devastating shooting rounds without the fear of exploding

A one is always a failure. It can be reroll, but not modify.
So a 1 to hit with Prescience is still a 1.

Not quite true - a roll of a 1 To Hit is a miss regardless of modifiers, however it doesn't stop the die roll from being modified.

So a roll of a 1 to hit with Prescience is a 2 for the purposes of overheating (which does take modifiers into account), but still misses even if the firer had BS2+ (because checking to see if you miss doesn't care if you have modifiers - it ignores them for its purpose).

Now that Blood letters have been reduced from 9 points to 7. Summoning a whole horde of them in for a devastating charge might be a thing. 10 blood letters aren't so scary. But 20 or 30 charging in is definitely scary. What do you guys think? Is there a way to make this work? Maybe turn one, charge a sorceror on bike upfield with a bike escort. Turn two, summon in a big group of blood letters for a devastating charge.

They may a way to exploit weaknesses in the opponents line. Like maybe the opponent sees you only have a bike unit with sorceror on bike on the left flank and so, he doesn't put much there. Then, turn two, he gets hit on the left flank with 20 to 30 blood letters, with the bikes providing support fire.

Black legion bikes can shoot even rapid fire in assault. So, you can turbo boost a group of bikes and said bike sorceror 20 inches upfield turn one. The potential reach of a summoned in blood letter group turn two is potentially really really big.


Also, now that warp smiths are much reduced in points. Might be worthwhile considering how to make them work. The biggest baddest thing Chaos has (which is not a titan) is the Lord of skulls, which has incidentally also gotten 100 points cheaper. The thing has 28 wounds with auto regen 1 wound. But if we also have 2 warpsmiths behind it. Then that's 1 + 2d3 hp regen every turn! If you don't do enough damage to kill off the said Lord of skulls, its going to keep on going, and going and going! lol And of course, the huge demon engine will provide support to the two warp smiths near it. Charge up the board while shooting for all you are worth with 1 cp demonforge strategems. Once you get within range, even the warpsmiths can get into the action with their flamers and melta guns. With warp smiths being so cheap now, you can even go 3 or 4 smiths. The LOS can be the lynchpin behind the whole army and focal point. Very awesome narrative wise, since this huge demon engine will be charging up the field, laying down devastating firepower everywhere, and despite taking horrendous damage, the smiths behind it and its own infernal regeneration keeps it going (plus it gets more and more attacks as it gets wounded.) lol.

While the Lord of skulls is a Khorne Daemon Engine, it is a massive Daemon Engine, and Iron Warriors worship all titans. Since cult troops can appear in other legions now, having a Lord of skulls which is the lynchpin of an Iron Warriors Army with warpsmiths supporting it sounds pretty fluffy to me?

 luke1705 wrote:
Those alpha legion tactics have me wondering if berzerkers wouldn't be very strong in that army list. Amazing if you get first turn; otherwise eh.

I think I'm still going to grab a storm eagle and zip it over into enemy lines with 18 zerkers + dark apostle + exalted champion. Will probably do a World Eaters Detachment but make the storm eagle nurgle from a different detachment to give it another -1 to

Double butcher cannon leviathans is obviously amazing for firing twice even with the restrictions, but I'm wondering what the best usage of infantry firing twice would be. Does seem to be combi plas termies

Is double butcher cannon shooting twice is 32 shots ? That sounds really nasty especially for just 1 command point.

Notable double shooters
20 Noise marines (18 sonic blasters, 2 Blastmasters) 112 Bolter shots + 4d3 str 8, ap-2 Dd3 shots This sounds like the perfect anti horde unit.
10 Terminators (10 Combi-Plasma) Kills anything it looks at in theory short of a titan especially with support
6 Chosen (5 Plasma, 1 Combi-Plasma) Cheaper alternative to the above but harder to get into position outside of alpha legion and easier to deal with for opponent
5 Havocs (4 Plasma, 1 Combi-Plasma) Even cheaper than the chosen
5 Havoc (4 Autocannons/Missile Launchers/Lascannons) In theory this is quite good but i'd rather go with multi shot weapons since it scales better

Do rapier platforms count as infantry units or vehicles since they are mixed and contain both keywords how would the double shoting startegem interact with them because 3 quad heavy bolters rapiers putting out 72 str5 ap1 D1 shots sounds quite terrifying.

If you are going to use 2 cp, I wouldn't waste it on just a group of havocs. But the maxed 20 noise marines, 10 termis and the dreadnaught is definitely a consideration. Although I think there is a separate strategem that allows a dreadnaught to fire twice anyway and its just 1 cp.

Would be interesting if you have mutiple such threats on the board. Like if you had that Dreadnaught, and a max 20 noise marine squad and the termis. No matter which threat opponent focused on, you would still have the chance to use the strategem for big shooty damage. We needed the help in shoooting, because personally, I feel that CSM will never be as shooty as other armies that focus on shooting. But the strategems do help. Just bear in mind we can only use 1 strategem per phase. So, its not like we can spam such strategems all in one shooting phase.

I'm thinking back to the Leviathan spam list I theorized: make that list an AL list and all of the Leviathans get -1 to hit against them, they're already T8 2+/5++ models with 14 wounds. Since I gave them all Grav-flux cannons, this should easily give them a turn to get in range.

Also, fire twice strategem, +1 to wound strategem, +1 to hit power, make them all Nurgle and cast a -1 to hit on a key Leviathan, we have lots of choices...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If you are going to use 2 cp, I wouldn't waste it on just a group of havocs. But the maxed 20 noise marines, 10 termis and the dreadnaught is definitely a consideration. Although I think there is a separate strategem that allows a dreadnaught to fire twice anyway and its just 1 cp.

Would be interesting if you have mutiple such threats on the board. Like if you had that Dreadnaught, and a max 20 noise marine squad and the termis. No matter which threat opponent focused on, you would still have the chance to use the strategem for big shooty damage. We needed the help in shoooting, because personally, I feel that CSM will never be as shooty as other armies that focus on shooting. But the strategems do help. Just bear in mind we can only use 1 strategem per phase. So, its not like we can spam such strategems all in one shooting phase.

You can use as many strategms as you like in the same phase, you just can't use the SAME stretegm more than once in a phase.